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Personal IC experiences
 Shovel Shack : Personal IC experiences
Subject Topic: Sent into the Wilderness
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Isaac
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Posted: May-15-08 at 11:12am | IP Logged  

 

There have been a couple recent posts that really struck a cord with me along the line of not being able to maintain relationships. Iím not referring to marriages but to fellowship with other believers. I too have been very isolated even when being involved in a church because my beliefs and standards are so different from church folk.

 

Whatís most frustrating is that I think it is I who have often cut others off because I just canít deal with their mindset. This is never a burning of bridges, just a sort of drifting off, but still amicable and friendly whenever paths cross again.

 

I donít like this isolation, but I often believe God puts us in a wilderness of sorts to cut off our old ways and make us depend entirely on him. We want to go back and have fellowship and share our walk with others but they cannot walk this way at this time. Am I wrong in thinking this is Godís purpose? On the one hand it seems necessary, and there are examples, such as Moses, who sepnt 40 years apart from his prior establishment, on the backside of a mountain. But then again the scriptures talk about the body, the members, fellowship, etc. This is the most frustrating thing of all.



      

But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, having been hidden, which God predetermined before the ages for our glory. (1 Cor 2:7)

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gregoryfl
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Posted: May-15-08 at 11:38am | IP Logged  

So true Isaac, painful yet true. I hope I don't have to wait another 39 years to finally experience God's heart for his people as a body, in intimate fellowship.

For me, I don't mind the isolation, which is just how I have been all of my life. It is just the knowing what God desires that frustrates me. I have given up on hearing people tell me that I am somehow wrong for not going to a church, which is their idea of fellowship. That just will not happen. That is not fellowship, no matter how they try to spin it that way. People just don't have really any idea of what true community is for the most part, despite all the metaphors of the human body, of family, or of a building. Who really thinks seriously about what those things tell us?

To me, the church (that which most call it) is more like a dismembered dead body, a family who all live separate lives, and a building of a bunch of pieces, none of which is put together. I know that is not the reality, but only the illusion, but it still hurts so much to see it day in and day out. Oh God, how it hurts.

I do know that since I do not hide my feelings, I do invariably cut people off when I am not "joining" in with their enthusiasm about how things are going. I want people in my face, challenging me when needed, encouraging me, getting to know who I really am, and me them. It is very true that God wants us to depend entirely on Him, but I also know that one of the ways he works is through us, his body. Thanks Isaac for sharing your heart here.

Ron


      

What do you see when you look at me? Not the visible me that your eyes can see. For in Christ I am dead, yet alive and free. Free to be it all, as he lives in me.
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realrestisbest
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Posted: May-15-08 at 11:55am | IP Logged  

Isaac,

I understand how you feel.  And I too have struggled with how to reconcile how these mindsets can abide together. (Meaning in a relationship with others)  But there really aren't any set answers, he will show you what he wants to do in you.

Sometimes I think about Paul and how he lost friends left and right.  And how because of the firm uncompromising he had in Christ, for the gospel and for the truth of grace he was persecuted.  I think that some of this comes with the territory.  But for me some of it is more about my fear of being pulled into that mindset again.  You might have the same fear.  But only he can show you what really is going on.

But one thing I do have to say is that brother you ARE IN THE PROMISED LAND.  But some have chosen NOT to enter the promised land at this time.  So they are in the wilderness....  But I understand what you meant.... 

In Love
Real
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realrestisbest
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[QUOTE=gregoryfl]So true Isaac, painful yet true. I hope I don't have to wait another 39 years to finally experience God's heart for his people as a body, in intimate fellowship.

For me, I don't mind the isolation, which is just how I have been all of my life. It is just the knowing what God desires that frustrates me. I have given up on hearing people tell me that I am somehow wrong for not going to a church, which is their idea of fellowship. That just will not happen. That is not fellowship, no matter how they try to spin it that way. People just don't have really any idea of what true community is for the most part, despite all the metaphors of the human body, of family, or of a building. Who really thinks seriously about what those things tell us?

To me, the church (that which most call it) is more like a dismembered dead body, a family who all live separate lives, and a building of a bunch of pieces, none of which is put together. I know that is not the reality, but only the illusion, but it still hurts so much to see it day in and day out. Oh God, how it hurts.

I do know that since I do not hide my feelings, I do invariably cut people off when I am not "joining" in with their enthusiasm about how things are going. I want people in my face, challenging me when needed, encouraging me, getting to know who I really am, and me them. It is very true that God wants us to depend entirely on Him, but I also know that one of the ways he works is through us, his body. Thanks Isaac for sharing your heart here.

Ron


Get out of my mind.... 

One thing I want to say is that what IF what you think God is telling you is really not him telling you.  Has an unwritten law of you should be searching or seeking people crept into your mind????  I could be wrong, his LIFE in you could be pushing you to trust.  But what seemed to pop out at me was the focus on where you testified to frustration.  That my dear friend is a fruit of the flesh.  Perhaps, his plan is to draw others to you, instead of you drawing them in. 

John 12:32

32But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."



Just some thoughts meant in love of course.  But only he can testify to what his life wants within you.





Edited by realrestisbest on May-15-08 at 12:04pm
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gregoryfl
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Dang it Realrest, you went and destroyed my moping wilderness wandering illusion I have going on in my mind! Ok, we are in the promised land. Could what Isaac is describing as a wilderness time perhaps be a time in the valley, of which there were many in the promised land? So, while in the promised land, we experience valleys as well as mountains.

I needed to hear what you said though. And oh yes, so awesome to bring up Paul and his life. Wow, for all that he poured out to others and how he ended up getting treated by some.

Ron


Edited by gregoryfl on May-15-08 at 3:12pm


      

What do you see when you look at me? Not the visible me that your eyes can see. For in Christ I am dead, yet alive and free. Free to be it all, as he lives in me.
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Rest and Trust
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realrestisbest wrote:
Isaac,

I understand how you feel.  And I too have struggled with how to reconcile how these mindsets can abide together. (Meaning in a relationship with others)  But there really aren't any set answers, he will show you what he wants to do in you.

Sometimes I think about Paul and how he lost friends left and right.  And how because of the firm uncompromising he had in Christ, for the gospel and for the truth of grace he was persecuted. 

In Love
Real


This story about Jesus is often what comes to mind when I think about these issues-

    63It is the Spirit Who gives life [He is the Life-giver]; the flesh conveys no benefit whatever [there is no profit in it]. The words (truths) that I have been speaking to you are spirit and life.

    64But [still] some of you fail to believe and trust and have faith. For Jesus knew from the first who did not believe and had no faith and who would betray Him and be false to Him.

    65And He said, This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted him [unless he is enabled to do so] by the Father.

    66After this, many of His disciples drew back (returned to their old associations) and no longer accompanied Him.

Just about everyone packed-up and left Jesus. The Spirit of Christ, who we reside in, is desirable to some and not to others.

The IC would command that you shove what God offers through Jesus down anyones and everyones throat. (Or you have their "blood on your hands".)

The Spirit of Christ says relax, enjoy the ride. The world is my responsibility not yours. I guess the point I was hoping to make is that often those we encounter want nothing to do with the Spirit of Christ, who you live in and is the source of your being. That is just where they are at right now. Who nows where they will be at tomorrow? 


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Dignz
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gregoryfl
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realrestisbest wrote:


One thing I want to say is that what IF what you think God is telling you is really not him telling you.  Has an unwritten law of you should be searching or seeking people crept into your mind????  I could be wrong, his LIFE in you could be pushing you to trust.  But what seemed to pop out at me was the focus on where you testified to frustration.  That my dear friend is a fruit of the flesh.  Perhaps, his plan is to draw others to you, instead of you drawing them in. 



Thanks for the questions. Could I be thinking that God is saying something to me that he truly isn't? I suppose it is possible. The reason I have a hard time seeing it that way is because if I had my way, I would have little or nothing to do with other people. It would be just me and Jesus. If I sound selfish for saying that, then I guess I have yet another thing the Lord needs to clear out of my life. Somehow I just read the scriptures and see this talk of the church, this body, and all the things we are encouraged to be for and with each other. Therefore I see that I need to look outside of my own selfishness and look to the interests of others. That is where I get slaughtered in my emotions though.

You hit on something that I am willing to consider, and that is whether the way I am going about seeking friendships is a thing of the flesh. Is that what you mean? If not, please elaborate? I certainly know that I have at times gotten involved hoping to receive as well, instead of just doing it because I want to. In reaching out to others, I feel like an infant stumbling along trying to walk, falling time and time again. I tell myself NO MORE! and then invariably find myself going at it once again, only to feel hurt yet again.

Don't get me wrong. When I say I love being alone and not be in others lives, I do not mean that I don't care for others. I have enough tears to fill several jars cried in caring about others that they don't even know about. Yes, I am a man with much emotion.

You make an interesting observation when you say maybe God's plan is to draw others to me, rather than me trying to draw them to myself. Could you do me a favor and ask him to hurry it up, because I have been wanting that like FOREVER! Here is what I perceive as the problem with that. God gave me this personality that is pretty wonderful, (not because I feel that way, but what the few who really got to know me in the past have said, including Melissa) but you have to get past layer after layer of crap to get to it. Very few, and I mean, very few, are willing to do that. I just do not project the bubbly, cuddly, come hold me I wanna be real close to you kind of aura.

Ask Jim and Sherri. It was no fun chasing them down the freeway when they ran in fear after first meeting me.<-----That was a huge joke.

I have prayed so much begging God to move just one person or family to want to share in me and my family's lives. He certainly is able to do that, but for whatever reason he has not. I have reached out to many a person as I have shared before, only to not have them reach out to me. One such person who lives very close to me is looking for men to be with in intimate fellowship. When I found out about it, I asked him what is keeping us, 2 brothers who live so close to each other, both wanting the same thing, from being that for each other? He had no answer. He literally could not tell me why, other than to say he knows I have made efforts to be involved with him and that those were the times he stirred to spiritual things. Yet, still he apparently looks for others, even from pretty far away in other places, for what we both are seeking.

So, what to do? Just trust that God knows what he is doing and that someday, someday he will get rid of all my outer layer crap so I can finally see myself for what I know I am truly. God will need buckets then for the tears shed at that time, mostly tears of joy I'm sure.

Ron


Edited by gregoryfl on May-15-08 at 2:35pm


      

What do you see when you look at me? Not the visible me that your eyes can see. For in Christ I am dead, yet alive and free. Free to be it all, as he lives in me.
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ShannonC
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Ron:

I was thinking earlier today that I am what I am.  I mean there are things that I wish i could change about my personality, but they haven't changed in 36 years (18 years of that knowing who I am in Christ) so I don't know that they'll ever change or that they NEED to change.

Just what came to mind. 



Edited by ShannonC on May-15-08 at 2:56pm


      

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gregoryfl
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As far as personality, yes, I can see what you are saying. We should be free to just be ourselves. It is when we try to fit ourselves into other people molds that we get all distorted and lose our sense of who we are. Thank you for expressing Life to me there, as it is very true, and freeing.

Is it too much to ask God to allow me to be myself and let others be themselves and still somehow be family, knit together in love, where you can sense it, and where the world can look at it and say, "Wow, they surely love one another." I guess the only reason I feel sometimes like I want God to change me is because perhaps I have the delusion that being like others who I see having no problems getting friends will somehow work for me. I know I am not speaking life here, sorry for venting. I guess it's my turn huh? 

Ron


Edited by gregoryfl on May-15-08 at 3:10pm


      

What do you see when you look at me? Not the visible me that your eyes can see. For in Christ I am dead, yet alive and free. Free to be it all, as he lives in me.
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ShannonC
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gregoryfl wrote:
Is it too much to ask God to allow me to be myself and let others be themselves and still somehow be family, knit together in love, where you can sense it, and where the world can look at it and say, "Wow, they surely love one another."
Ron

Question - the first part of  your statement, highlighted in blue, appears to be what anyone would want, i.e, to love and be loved, be accepted, have fellowship, etc., then, however, the second part, highlighted in mauve ( red, whatever) sounds like the purpose of having the fellowship is to make sure that the "world" sees what we have and wants it.  Are you concerned that your apparent lack of friends is not a good witness of HIS life in you?

 



      

ShannonC
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realrestisbest
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You make an interesting observation when you say maybe God's plan is to draw others to me, rather than me trying to draw them to myself. Could you do me a favor and ask him to hurry it up, because I have been wanting that like FOREVER! Here is what I perceive as the problem with that. God gave me this personality that is pretty wonderful, (not because I feel that way, but what the few who really got to know me in the past have said, including Melissa) but you have to get past layer after layer of crap to get to it. Very few, and I mean, very few, are willing to do that. I just do not project the bubbly, cuddly, come hold me I wanna be real close to you kind of aura.-quote Gregoryfl

You know what is ironic here is that you have stated that you do not project the I'll call it perhaps bubbly, cuddlies.  BUT his LIFE in you shows the very CONTRARY!!!!   I see the love of Christ in your posts.  I see that loyalty of family and friendship that Christ IS.  IT IS THERE!!!  HE IS THERE!!!! 



You hit on something that I am willing to consider, and that is whether the way I am going about seeking friendships is a thing of the flesh. Is that what you mean? If not, please elaborate?

Yes, something like that.  For instance I know the scripture talks about God's will to share the gospel with others.  But it's something that he has to make a want to in my life.  Otherwise it just seems to be me striving in my flesh.  It's funny that the Lord has even testified to me about making things that he will do in my life a law.  Not to say that, that is what you are experiencing.  But I felt compelled to run it past you.  Because my dear friend you were made to be free......... and in his freedom he will work in you what he wants to do.  As well as in his timing. 

But  the truth is only he will let you know, but these were just some of the observations that I just couldn't keep quiet about!!!!




Edited by realrestisbest on May-15-08 at 3:51pm
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gregoryfl
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ShannonC wrote:

Question - the first part of  your statement, highlighted in blue, appears to be what anyone would want, i.e, to love and be loved, be accepted, have fellowship, etc., then, however, the second part, highlighted in mauve ( red, whatever) sounds like the purpose of having the fellowship is to make sure that the "world" sees what we have and wants it.  Are you concerned that your apparent lack of friends is not a good witness of HIS life in you?



I honestly am not aware of any concern of a lack of witness. What I think about is this promise Jesus gave of receiving a hundredfold brothers, sisters, mothers, etc in this life now. And also where he said that all the world would know we were his disciples, by the love we show among ourselves. These I see as realities Jesus says that are ours, yet (probably in my fleshly thinking) I don't see it in person to person relationship in my life and so passionately want it for some reason. I do know it is there, as I see it evident here on the shack. Please do not be offended by this but, apparently I am wanting more than online typing relationships. I want to see your faces, to be able to touch, hug, show body language, etc. To me so much more impactful than an emote on a screen. If I sound like I am unappreciative of what we are experiencing here, please do NOT take it that way. There is LIFE here. I know that. I just desire even more, if you will. I am so appreciative of all of you.

Love,

Ron


      

What do you see when you look at me? Not the visible me that your eyes can see. For in Christ I am dead, yet alive and free. Free to be it all, as he lives in me.
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gregoryfl
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Don't keep quiet Realrest. Shout it like it needs to be shouted! You are so very right. I should know better. I express that knowing better on my posts most of the time. Just like I said though, I guess it was my time for receiving that which I know and share. Thanks for making it more clear about me possibly trying to form relationships from a standpoint of law. You know, the more I think about it, the more that makes total sense. For where else would a sense of shame and guilt from failure come from if it isn't from attaching it to law? Thanks so much! Doesn't mean I'm totally out of the water, but I'm not in over my head right now.

Ron


      

What do you see when you look at me? Not the visible me that your eyes can see. For in Christ I am dead, yet alive and free. Free to be it all, as he lives in me.
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ShannonC
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gregoryfl wrote:
ShannonC wrote:

Question - the first part of  your statement, highlighted in blue, appears to be what anyone would want, i.e, to love and be loved, be accepted, have fellowship, etc., then, however, the second part, highlighted in mauve ( red, whatever) sounds like the purpose of having the fellowship is to make sure that the "world" sees what we have and wants it.  Are you concerned that your apparent lack of friends is not a good witness of HIS life in you?



I want to see your faces, to be able to touch, hug, show body language, etc.
Love,

Ron

Ron:

I TOTALLY get what you are saying, brother, and the feeling is completely mutual.



      

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RealRestisbest2
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gregoryfl wrote:
Don't keep quiet Realrest. Shout it like it needs to be shouted! You are so very right. I should know better. I express that knowing better on my posts most of the time. Just like I said though, I guess it was my time for receiving that which I know and share. Thanks for making it more clear about me possibly trying to form relationships from a standpoint of law. You know, the more I think about it, the more that makes total sense. For where else would a sense of shame and guilt from failure come from if it isn't from attaching it to law? Thanks so much! Doesn't mean I'm totally out of the water, but I'm not in over my head right now.

Ron


I'm glad that he has blessed you to continue to rest.....  And in the process you made a friend!!!
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realrestisbest
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Issac sorry for distracting from the original topic.  
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gregoryfl
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Isaac wrote:


I donít like this isolation, but I often believe God puts us in a wilderness of sorts to cut off our old ways and make us depend entirely on him. We want to go back and have fellowship and share our walk with others but they cannot walk this way at this time. Am I wrong in thinking this is Godís purpose?



Isaac, yes, sorry for taking away from your post bro.

You ask if you are wrong in thinking this is God's purpose. I would like to share a real life example, breathed from the mouth of God so you know we have His stamp of approval on it. When Paul became a believer, there was already an established church in Jerusalem with the apostles Peter, John, and James, the brother of Jesus there. I find it interesting that God did not have Paul go immediately to them to learn from them as a new believer, but instead, he moved him into a desert region of Arabia for about 3 years. He explains why he was sent there. It was to be given the gospel by the revelation of Jesus himself. Then, when he is done there, he goes to Damascus to begin sharing this gospel. Travelling further south, he ends up in Jerusalem where he spends a total of 15 days with Peter, and a brief visit with James, and that's it.

Why do you think the Lord decided to directly teach him the gospel in a desert all alone instead of having him learn what he needed from the apostles in an already established church in Jerusalem? The answer to that I think answers your question in some respects. As history and scriptures bears out, he butted heads with the apostles over what the Lord directly showed him of the gospel. He needed that time alone to be fortified with the revolutionary freedom he was about to bring on the scene that no Jew would ever think possible. If he had gone to Jerusalem he would have had Jesus added to the law and all the oral things such as times for prayer and such, which they were still practicing. See Acts 3:1 for an example.

Paul learned in that time to utterly depend on Christ, for he would oftentimes walk a lonely life, even with others around him. Remember he was called on the carpet by the apostles later on where they tried to compel Titus, who travelled with him, to be circumcised. So there you have an example of someone wanting to share with others but they are having a hard time accepting it. There was definite tension between Paul and the other apostles, although they learned to work things out to some extent.

I also think there is a difference between what you are describing and someone who is being involved in others lives, trying to divide people, or get people to follow them, etc, and is exposed for it and avoided. Those types of people are definitely not acting according to God's purpose, except to the extent of showing who truly are genuine among us.

Ron


      

What do you see when you look at me? Not the visible me that your eyes can see. For in Christ I am dead, yet alive and free. Free to be it all, as he lives in me.
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rickh
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i got dozens of friends and the fun never ends, as long as im buying. but at the end of the day, im all alone.  i know exactly how you feel ron. if not for my job, id not speak with anyone other than family.  with the exeption of jim and sherri and another brother, pat thru jim and sherri.  and ive been friends with them for almost 8 or 9 years but havent seen them for about 6 until lately.  and that was because of my current situation. i have an occasional beer drinking buddy at his convenience and thats it. i know exactly where youre coming from.  nothing satifies more than face to face sharing. i think thats why ive been so depressed over the years with a few highlights here and there with family.  youre not alone bro.  this situation im in pushed me back to the arms of jim and sherri. i call that miraculous.  GOD said get off your ass and go share.  hopefully you can come down this sunday and we'll start a trend.  i know people here on the shack seem far and few between.  never met ya but love ya anyway.  

      

rick
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rickh wrote:
i got dozens of friends and the fun never ends, as long as im buying. but at the end of the day, im all alone.   hopefully you can come down this sunday and we'll start a trend.


Hey, as long as your buying, I'm there buddy. See ya Sunday. KIDDING!!!! You opened yourself up for that one buddy! I am not known to be affectionate to guys, but.....I WUV U 2! Thanks for the encouraging thoughts bro.

Ron


      

What do you see when you look at me? Not the visible me that your eyes can see. For in Christ I am dead, yet alive and free. Free to be it all, as he lives in me.
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Isaac
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Joe,

THanks for showing how the Amplified has this verse:

  66After this, many of His disciples drew back (returned to their old associations) and no longer accompanied Him.

I never saw this before--that they were choosing to not associate with Christ.

Ron/RealRest,

You made a lot of useful conections there--and yes I have seen this whole wilderness thing in that light. But three years would be plenty--wouldn't it?



      

But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, having been hidden, which God predetermined before the ages for our glory. (1 Cor 2:7)

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