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Biblical Interpretation
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Subject Topic: Difference Between Trespass and Sin
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gregoryfl
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Posted: May-01-09 at 12:32pm | IP Logged  

Eph 2:1 You were made alive when you were dead in trespasses and sins,

Notice that we were dead in two things, trespasses AND sins. There is a difference between the two.

Trespasses have to do with specific acts of sin, while sin (not sins, but sin) has to do with a state of being. In other words, trespasses are always about what a person does, while sin is about what a person is. Let me make one point of clarification though. There are actions that can be done that are called sins, but I am referring to sin itself, as a principle.

Under the law covenant, there was the sacrifice for sin, and the sacrifice for trespasses. While they seemed to be the same, they were not. Sins and trespasses are basically the same, but sin is not the same as either of them. Sin is the root law or principle, or state of existence, behind those acts that are called sins or trespasses.

With that in mind, here is what scripture says about the relationship between sin and our flesh, which needed to be dealt with by the sacrifice for sin. Paul described it this way:

Rom 7:17,18 So now it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwells in me. For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwells no good thing.

All who have ever lived have lived in sinful flesh, flesh in which sin dwells. It is not alive however, until the law brings sin and temptation together in intercourse thus birthing the act of sin. This state of existence included Jesus himself, for it is said of him:

Rom 8:3 For what the law couldn’t do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin...

2Co 5:21 For him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

The reason Jesus is said to have dwelt in the likeness of sinful flesh is because he never sinned. Because of that, he knew no sin. Yet, he was made to be sin for us. Why? Because by him being born of a woman, under law, and thus being shaped in iniquity, conceived in sin, thus dwelling in a sinful body, he could then condemn that sin by never giving into its desires. He lived under the law, which gave sin power in his body. The law brought the sin in his members and the temptations he faced together, but he never allowed the two to consummate. He was kept by the power of his Father dwelling in him so that sin never got one chance to be birthed in him. By him going all the way to his physical death without sinning, he was able to condemn sin in that very body of sin he lived in. In other words, he found sin guilty of killing an innocent man, one who had never sinned!

This may sound like blasphemy to speak of Jesus actually having sin in his body, but the problem is in identifying what one has with who they are. Dwelling in sinful bodies, being born in sin, does not make us sinners, anymore than me wearing a police uniform makes me a police officer. Living in bodies with sin in its members merely sets up impossible odds for anyone who is empty of Life, the Life of the one who made us to dwell in. Like Paul, we were all "alive apart from the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived, and [we] died." Rom 7:9

Now though, we are apart from law, dead to it, so that, filled with the fullness of God in Christ, we are alive, never to die. This all came about because Christ took that sinful body of his outside the camp, in which dwelt the beginning of that new creation of which we are a part of, and sacrificed it, and us in him, as sin. That body of sin is no more. His body is now one of immortality, glory, power, and spiritual.

Nowhere in scripture is it said that Christ was our trespass offering. Rather, he is only spoken of as our sin offering. Here is one such instance:

Heb 13:11,12 For the bodies of those animals, whose blood is brought into the holy place by the high priest as an offering for sin, are burned outside of the camp. Therefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people through his own blood, suffered outside of the gate.

This is a direct fulfillment of the type, spoken of here:

Lev 4:21 He shall carry forth the bull outside the camp, and burn it as he burned the first bull. It is the sin offering for the assembly.

The reason it was to be outside the camp was because it was a repulsive sacrifice, unlike some of the others, such as a simple burnt offering given on occasion which were sweet smelling sacrifices to him. The offering for sin symbolized the rejection of that sin on the one bearing the sin. Sin was thus condemned and consumed.

Why is this distinction important? Christ could not be a sacrifice of trespasses because he never sinned. He did however dwell in a body of sin, which is why he could be our sacrifice for sin.

How then were our trespasses dealt with? He dealt with the root, the source, sin itself, which dwells in our bodies. He destroyed sin's power by killing us so that rather than being dead in sins, we are now dead to sin. Every act that could flow out of that root has been dealt with totally, with finality. Paul speaks about it this way:

Rom 4:25 who was delivered up through our trespasses, and was raised for our justification.

Notice that he was not delivered up for his own trespasses, but ours. Nowhere does scripture say he was made to be a transgressor. He could not be, for he never sinned. He is spoken of as being made sin however. This, as I have shared above, was the condition he was born in, although most confuse the issue by saying he was made sin only on the cross. Not so. They are confusing the difference between sin and trespass. Our trespasses, our acts of sin, were borne by him on the cross. This is how he dealt with what we do. But he went further than that, for trespasses and sins are merely the symptom of a greater problem, sin itself. Therefore he himself was made sin when he was conceived in his mothers womb "brought forth in iniquity. In sin [his] mother conceived me. Ps 51:5 It was in this state of who he was that he dealt with who we were, for we, in him, died that day with him and thus all of the old Adam died that day, and sin itself dealt with.

We today, who have Christ in us, are in the same place Christ was while he was on earth, as Paul said in Rom 8:10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

That is reality. His body was subject to the same frailty, futility, and decay that ours is. As a flesh and blood human, he could not, in that state, inherit the kingdom of God anymore than we can in ours. He is no longer in such a body, having put on the dwelling of God himself after his body was raised from the dead.

The truth of the matter is, nothing good dwells in our fleshly body. It is indeed dead because of sin. Sin dwells there, dead though it may be, being separated from law. This is why we do not evaluate anyone according to the flesh, nor do we judge based on the flesh, that which is outward. It is a bogus evaluation because it is based on who we used to be. And by the way, when I say anyone, I am speaking of everyone you come into contact with, not just believers. God is at peace, and conciliated with every person, whether they believe it or not.

That is also why we do not find our identity in the flesh. Please understand that neither did Christ when he was on earth. He always identified himself with reality, who he truly was, as the joining of God and man together. That is God's calling for us as well, to speak of what is true with ourselves and each other. Not only that, but we also do not evaluate Christ by his flesh either. We often fail to think of that, but it is what Paul said. Gone are the days of looking at the gospels and making judgments about our Lord based on his human life in the flesh. He is who he is now, and that is how we see him and relate to him.

In saying "It is finished," he truly could say that, having condemned sin itself, and all which spring from it's law, in his body. Thus we all died to both sin AND transgression, which we were in at one time, freed to be placed in another, namely, Christ.

Edited by gregoryfl on May-01-09 at 4:16pm


      

What do you see when you look at me? Not the visible me that your eyes can see. For in Christ I am dead, yet alive and free. Free to be it all, as he lives in me.
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Tim P
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Posted: May-02-09 at 1:53am | IP Logged  

gregoryfl wrote:
Eph 2:1 You were made alive when you were dead in trespasses and sins,

Notice that we were dead in two things, trespasses AND sins. There is a difference between the two.



First of all, thank you for this post, brother.  I am reading and re-reading it.  But I do have an initial question.  Why do you think Paul used the plural form of "sin" in Eph. 2:1?  In this case it does seem like he is describing things we did as sin, just like trespasses.
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gregoryfl
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Posted: May-02-09 at 3:44am | IP Logged  

Hey Tim,

I agree that in Eph 5 he is speaking about things we do. Whenever he uses the term "sins", he is referring to those specifics acts of missing the mark. When he uses the term "sin" however, he is referring to the root from which all wrongdoing comes, whether sins or trespasses.

I know you have been going through Leviticus in your class, so in going back to chapters 4 and 5.

In chapter 4 we see that:

No specific wrongdoing is mentioned. In fact, the sins here are spoken of as unintentional ones, sins which the person has to be made aware of. This is dealt with by a sin offering. The reason the sin is generalized, with no specific mentioning of a particular one, is because the emphasis here is on the condition of the person doing the wrong, not the act itself. In other words, this is symbolizing how God would deal with the root of the problem. This symbolized Jesus becoming sin and condemning sin in that sinful flesh.

In chapter 5 we see that:

Specific things are now mentioned. This is dealt with by sin offerings that are considered as trespass offerings, or guilt offerings. The reason specific sins are mentioned is because the focus here is on the acts themselves. In other words, this is symbolizing how God will deal with fruit of the problem. This symbolized Jesus taken on all our trespasses and sins, and bearing them for us.

Without pressing the analogy too far, consider a tree:

If the tree is rotten, or bad, that can be likened to Sin. That speaks of the condition of the tree.

The fruit of the tree can be likened to sins. They are the by-product of the state of the tree. A rotten tree produces bad fruit.

The leaves all over the ground can be likened to trespasses. They, like fruit, are what the tree produces, but there is an obvious difference between a leaf and a fruit.

Same with sins and trespasses. Both come from sin, but have their differences. Rotten fruit and leaves that should be on the tree are the result of the condition of the tree.




Edited by gregoryfl on May-02-09 at 11:17am


      

What do you see when you look at me? Not the visible me that your eyes can see. For in Christ I am dead, yet alive and free. Free to be it all, as he lives in me.
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the shovel
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Posted: May-02-09 at 6:10am | IP Logged  

An excellent and thought-provoking article, my friend. :) I loved how you tied this in:

Quote:
Not only that, but we also do not evaluate Christ by his flesh either. We often fail to think of that, but it is what Paul said. Gone are the days of looking at the gospels and making judgments about our Lord based on his human life in the flesh. He is who he is now, and that is how we see him and relate to him.


And isn't this lack of understanding the basis of the whole WWJD mentality?

Thanks for your post.

Jim


      

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LibertyBelle78
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Posted: May-02-09 at 9:34am | IP Logged  

the shovel wrote:


And isn't this lack of understanding the basis of the whole WWJD mentality?

Jim


wow... good point, Jim! I have often made the mistake of thinking that way.
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Beafaithful
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I just happened to stumble onto The Differences Between Trespasses and Sin -http://shovelshack.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=2582&PN=4 by gregoryfl and I found it to speak my mind: and there lies the problem.

 

If… and this is a huge if; what if gregoryfl and me is right? All sin (the inherent root) and its sins (our actions) are wiped clean by the sacrifice of Christ on the cross; and this cleansing was, is and forever will be for everyone on earth whether they believe in Christ as their Lord and Savior… or not. What then? These questions have haunted my ministry for years, I pray for my path to be made clear.

 

What does this mean for the Christian walk? Why bother serving a master if He has no demands? Does a Christian’s fruitful faith count for anything above that of a pagan do-gooder? What does this mean for the pagan serial killer and his life eternal? Will he too be in the kingdom or just outside it’s gates or… burnt in Hell’s fire?

 

These are just a few of the questions I have found no answers for. Everything in my Christian life has always been answered yes or no. This lack of firm foundation is now making me lean away from my conviction of a universal salvation. There has to be a firm yes or no, is or is not, black or white because I know there is no gray area in God’s kingdom or plan.

 

I got this far and went to prayer, pause and reflection and I found strength and my path. Huh? Wow, I have just swung to believing that there really is a Hell and perhaps that Hell is just outside the gates of His coming Kingdom. It always amazes me how I find my answers when I put my fingers to my keyboard. Surely I can see no worse Hell then seeing Him, and those who did believe, bonded together in harmony and bliss while the reformed pagan: reformed because he now knows Christ, stands outside the gates separated from Him and all His Glory. I believe I was clinging to the universal idea of salvation because my super wonderful children and most of those I love have separated from Christ and I desire them to be with me; with Him.

 

See there! There is the darkness of my universalism; I have put the “with me” before the “with Him”. Re-read that above paragraph - I don't want to loose my children! I am so afraid for my loss that I may be deliberately altering the Gospel message to appease my fears. In true faith there is no fear. Christ himself tells those who wish to follow Him to leave their loved ones behind and follow Him – putting Him first and fear not for He is with us.

 

I do believe that I have just popped the cork and can see inside the cast away bottle – I’ve always known what the note would say; I just didn’t want to read it plainly and justly in His glaring Light. Yes Christ died for the world (John 3:16-17) and all of those who dwell within it’s sin but unless you commit to putting Him first and calling Him Lord, Master, Savior and friend you will be judged by your sinfulness (not your sin root, that’s gone) as well as your works.

 

Oh boy now here’s another question on my heart… Eph 1:1-11 (there’s about 12 more) that state we believers are predestined, called, elected & drawn to Him through His Grace of grace. So then did He create those “not called pagans” for a life ending to separation or damnation? Yes and no: yes to the predestined, called, elect & drawn and no to those going to the Hell of total annihilation. My hope is that when the pagans come to stand before Him (the living and the dead) they all will bow before Him (how could they not?) and once again His mercy and grace will save! I think they, the life long pagans, are still outside the gates but maybe; just maybe their servitude will bring them pardon just His plan of Grace and faith did us. I believe, better yet, I know, we Christians will be safe from the first judgment (sins) but we too will stand before Him to see what we have produced with the talents He blessed us with. I don’t have much to show, in fact I cannot think of a darn thing that would be worthy of the kingdom so I might be outside the gates too!

 

So gregoryfl, isn’t it nice we can still sit at the same table and talk about the same God and we both know Him as Savior and Lord? Amen Time will tell.

 

Thank you for an opportunity to vent. And thank you so much for your wisdom. Your first 23 paragraphs are incredible and wise. Few people these days even want to discuss the Bible let alone… well enough. Thank you and peace to you & yours as you walk your path. The joy is in the journey when the journey’s homeward bound! (I love that song)

Bea

      

As time passes and my years increase my most sound wisdom knows how little I really know. Just when you think the conclusion is near He turns the page of my book and on I go - constantly digging.
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the shovel
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Bea wrote:
I don't have much to show, in fact I cannot think of a darn thing that would be worthy of the kingdom so I might be outside the gates too!


Hello Dear Bea. Welcome to the Shovel Shack! :)

We stand by his grace, for he himself is our worthiness. Of this I am surely glad, for I also find quite a lack when I examine my own worthiness. Be at peace, my new friend. :)

Jim


      

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Debi
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Welcome to the shack Bea

I know I can really get hung up on asking questions of God (and myself) that seem to never get answered or perhaps have no answer.

This thread called "Everlasting destruction" might interest (or maybe not) you to read.  A couple of posts/questions by Dave, sounded like something I might have written:

http://shovelshack.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=1492&KW=dave& amp;PN=0&TPN=1

I especially relate to a comment Dave made, that sort of sums it all up,

I live in the Truth!!!!!  That is sometimes even better than "knowing" it.

Something Jim said that really helps me to REST in all my question asking is: that perhaps I am hoping for direct answers to what are bogus questions.

Here is another thread that may be of interest to you-"What of the Lost"-(I pasted some of the things said that really helped & spoke to me):

http://shovelshack.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=2763&KW=what+ of+the+lost&TPN=1

For I too have debated them with others, but no where near as much with myself in my own inner reasonings. Somehow, I think you and I have assumed that the more we understand God's grace and love in Christ we will be better poised to solve the questions that have plagued mankind since the beginning, that we will finally get the right answers. But what are the real questions and/or issues that you hope to resolve?..... After all, so much of the serious discussion I've either engaged in or observed is still attempting to answer the same questions of fault, injustice, fairness, etc. that I've had my whole life…. In all our reasonings, aren't we the ones who are projecting our own sense of injustice upon God? Aren't we the ones setting up the scenarios and then reasoning them away? When I realized that my new and carefully constructed questions were merely a rewording of the same old questions mankind has been asking for eons, I also realized that the answers I would find would be of a similar nature…. hoping for direct answers to what I see as bogus questions. … As Paul addressed the reasoning of the fleshly mind (Rom 9), the complaint must be regarded not as truth but as the expression of man's false perceptions…. Paul wrote not to suggest we cannot know his purposes but to silence the complaints of man…. still the attempts are made to create a doctrinal approach to life. To us, nothing is hidden in Christ, and yet we still create new ways to answer those questions that echo the reasoning of fleshly wisdom. God does do what he purposes, but we as vessels of mercy are hidden in that purpose, for we are in him. His pleasure has been to make the riches of his glory known upon us…. Despite the fact that I don't buy into a position, I believe that God truly loses nothing. I just don't think it fits into our appearance-based concepts. :) (Jim)

There are some of us who accept that maybe we do not have all the facts, that maybe we are asking questions that God has not fully answered and that even if He did it might be beyond us to understand…. It is for us to share Christ with one another and those He brings into our lives. Beyond that we can trust God to do what is right (in His eyes) with all those people and situations that are beyond our sphere of influence. Jesus might ask "What is that to you?". Can you not simply accept that without having to have all your righteous judgements answered? (Simpleton/Fred)

Hopefully the links will work (although I tend to mess that up). But if they don't just type in the title of the thread  using the search option on the left.

Again, welcome.




      

Debi
"Truth is not the sum total of all true things, but is instead a person & His name is Jesus & He has become our LIFE."
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Debi
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Jim wrote:

We stand by his grace, for he himself is our worthiness.


This is a great reminder Jim.


      

Debi
"Truth is not the sum total of all true things, but is instead a person & His name is Jesus & He has become our LIFE."
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Beafaithful
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Hey hello everyone! Nah, I'm not really a question asker or answer seeker. I am just so in love that I have to keep searching for His favorite things. After 33 years of marriage, I can finish my husbands conversations before he finishes and I know what he is thinking by the creases in his face. This, this is how I need to know my Savior and my Lord. Ya gotta keep the love alive! My Lord and I, we love to chat it up - I seek and find, I ask and I receive & I knock... well you know the rest, it's in His owners manual - our Holy Bible! Amen

Right now I am discussing with a Christian scientist who teaches at our local college about the chosen protiens and the pagan protiens (his words not mine) that feed (sustain, energize) the chosen protiens. See even in DNA the pagans keep us faithful. Oh but wait, there's a inner kingdom. Only the predestined protiens are allowed to enter this kingdom because they are created to replicated to the image of the inner force in side a DNA inner kingdom! Inside this kingdom (again his words not mine) resides the creative mind or intelligence that keeps the DNA of all living things alive. The chosen protiens lock into that unseen force like a hand fits a glove but the other protiens must stay outside the "gate" serving the purpose of keeping the faithful going - now that's a hoot! I thought the Bible had an ever repeated theme/message and wouldn't ya know it so does the programing of life itself. Oh His Glory has no answer that we can comprehend now but I am guessing when we lock in we will be in for one awesome life everlasting. See I'm just a romantic at heart and He's so easy to love!

 



      

As time passes and my years increase my most sound wisdom knows how little I really know. Just when you think the conclusion is near He turns the page of my book and on I go - constantly digging.
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Dignz
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"God does do what he purposes, but we as vessels of mercy are hidden in that purpose, for we are in him."  <jim

"We stand by his grace, for he himself is our worthiness."  <jim

wonderful words of encouragement ... calming heart support ... soothing to the fretful mind ... just really wonderful and uplifting!  thank you so much for posting these deb! 




      

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Beafaithful
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"God does do what he purposes, but we as vessels of mercy are hidden in that purpose, for we are in him."  <jim

Oh that's so delicious I could eat it. Amen I love Acts I just got done chewing on it again about a month ago. I find I return to it over and over. I just left Ephesians (yummy) and Ecclesiastes (awesome) while we were visiting the hubby's Ma and Pa in Florida. I was able to help 3 woman on the way home because of that horrible weather. Buffalo airport had a power outage so we were popped to Detroit and that extended time was all He need to use me. I was on the potters wheel just spinning and singing praises the rest of my night. I'm in Lamentation now and it has never been so "today" for me as this time through. Sad but yet awesome to think that we are due for another great revival because of our faithlessness. And yes I am one of those people who believe the end is so near you can smell it coming. Amen Oooo I got goosebumps!

Acts 17:26-28 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, for "In him we live and move and have our being';  as even some of your own poets have said, "'For we are indeed his offspring.'



      

As time passes and my years increase my most sound wisdom knows how little I really know. Just when you think the conclusion is near He turns the page of my book and on I go - constantly digging.
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the shovel
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Bea,

Where in Florida do your parents live? We live in Palm Beach County. :)

Jim


      

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Beafaithful
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In the most beautiful spot that they just  happen to stumble on - or so the pagans would say anyway. We know better than that - God's graces those who keep the faith and they are very faithful. They lived a very hard life as veggie/dairy farmers never owning anything for themselves as they shared everything between the brothers including the home they all lived in. Now they are retired and living alone in peace and glory looking out onto the "pond" in their back yard. Awesome!

Zephyrhills Fla. or as the residents call in Little Buffalo because everyone there is from the general WNY area

Have a wonderful and glorious Lenten season. I feel that this "can be" the most powerful time in our lives if we are willing to give these 40 days up for Him Amen

 



      

As time passes and my years increase my most sound wisdom knows how little I really know. Just when you think the conclusion is near He turns the page of my book and on I go - constantly digging.
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the shovel
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Posted: Mar-09-11 at 3:19pm | IP Logged  

Hello Bea,

Zephyrhills, the land from which much water flows. I didn't know about the Little Buffalo reference, only about the bottling plant that made them famous. By the pond, are you referring to that small body of water known as the Gulf of Mexico?

Having grown up in the Lutheran church, I am familiar with Lent, although my experience of the season was just a fraction of the intensity of those in the Roman Catholic church. Don't you find it rather interesting how the season leading up to the expression of God's love in sacrificing his son for us, because we had not the strength, would be observed by how much we could sacrifice for him?

Jim


      

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Beafaithful
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Ah Lent… what a joyous time of year. Although manmade it is by far the most glorious of man’s accomplishments. I was raised Roman Catholic and confirmed Missouri Synod Lutheran so that I could be married in my husband’s Lutheran church. I did not have a problem with giving up my Roman Catholic ties, as they had been broken for me many years earlier in my childhood. I do however, to this very day, sigh with awe at the wonderful smells and reverence that the Roman Catholic church likes to pomp. I tucked those few wonderful displays of worship into my heart and use them often in my life. No statues, no ashes and certainly no Pope but Candles are lighted to reveal His light in my life but it just a symbol and nothing more. I love to burn frankincense-based incense to send up glorious smells to my Father and creator, to my Lord and Savior and to fill my lungs with His Power of breath: my, His, Holy Spirit soars within me and the silence of prayer was pressed upon me as a child and I have learned prayers power.

 

The Lutheran in me died when I started to attend a Lutheran college for Church Ministry studies. They, Lutheran seminaries, are now full 180 spin from Martin Luther call for worship and I know he would be so very heart broken to see what is “not” being taught in seminary these days. Over the course of years, decades forward and backward of my Salvation I finally decided that the First Century church was where my heart was. As I like to say, “The whole Truth, His Truth and nothing but His Truth so help me God”. I tell those who are interested in coming to our home for fellowship/refreshment that there is no religious affiliation only the Holy Word of God and when we read together and pray together we share and find our own paths He has predestined each one of us to walk.

 

Lent is like a 40 daylong sermon that I teach to my heart everyday and all day. Many people get knotted knickers with my passion during the Passion season. They will shove the advice of keeping this life style alive all year. I agree that we need to keep to worship and prayer all year but this is a Passion Season. Christ Himself cried so hard it appeared as blood. I know of nowhere else He did this during His earthly ministry. I do keep a daily worship in my life but during Lent I like to go deep, very deep. Things that I do with my normal passion I do with flare and vigor. I sacrifice to keep sharp and clear. What starts out as an isolated time with Him spreads like fire in dry grass to others in my life. His Power in my life is so joyous and so enlightening during this time that I look forward all year to Lent. I first called out to Him during this time so it is also a 40-day anniversary celebration. Lent may be man made and has Roman Catholic roots but I use peanut butter to get price stickers off plastic bottles too. Now I know peanut butter was not made to remove stickers but I use it to fill a need I have and it works wonderfully.

 

Oh… the pond is just that a pond; several miles long – 6 to be exact. When we visited Ma and Pa this past month we went to the Free Wheelers Tractor Steam Engine Show. It was such a hoot to see Pa standing with all the old farmers from “the hood” back home – wink. Both my husband and I joked at the feeling that we were zapped back home to the Corn Festival – augh! Oh my not what I had dreamt of for my vacation but it was a quaint picture that has stuck in my mind – what a weird and loving bond farmers have. I guess that’s what made me fall in love with my hubby; those farm boys know what’s real. Amen



      

As time passes and my years increase my most sound wisdom knows how little I really know. Just when you think the conclusion is near He turns the page of my book and on I go - constantly digging.
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the shovel
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Posted: Mar-10-11 at 4:01pm | IP Logged  

Hi Bea,

I think I get the picture that you really, really love the Lenten season that you describe as "by far the most glorious of man’s accomplishments". However I'm wondering now more than ever if you are aware of how HIS sacrifice, rather than ours, seems to take the back seat in the midst of it all?

Jim


      

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Beafaithful
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To understand the sacrifice I believe you must understand love or perhaps I should say God: for God in His completeness is Love. Love is the root that defines all else or at least it defines it for me. I, being a woman, usually stand shoulder to shoulder with my masculine peers but sadly we are facing in different directions only to walk around the circle to finally meet face to face in agreement. At first they do not understand that I do indeed understand because I understand as only a woman can or as a mother can. Just as it states in Proverbs 10:1, “A wise son makes a glad father, but a foolish son is a sorrow to his mother.” we women feel things ever so differently than the man does. So with this being stated, you being a man, must open your mind to what I am feeling rather than reading what my text shows.

 

Love is the foundation of creation. God created because He loved and needed to be loved in return. This upsets many people that I have discussed this with because they cannot see God as needing anything. The act of creation is defined as a need to create so I am very comfortable in knowing my God needed because His need proves the perfection of Him and His love. God created us from love, to love and be loved in return. For pure love to proven true it must be cut loose to see if it will return. True love always returns to where it was first loved; and God first loved us. Our Almighty Father put Himself and all He is into flesh and He loved us. He planned His sacrifice knowing the end would justify the means. He loves us as the Creator, as the Father, through His flesh of Jesus Christ and by and through His Holy Spirit. His completeness loves us and causes us to walk His planned path and return His Love to Him.

 

As a parent I understand a part of what God feels. I could not feel it had not God created it in me to feel. I love my sons so desperately and any separation from them is intensely painful regardless in the fact that I know they are happy and content living their lives away from me. I am so happy knowing that they are happy but I would rather have them as happy in my presence. This is God’s plan for us. The Holy Word reveals separation from God is Hell. My heart reveals separation from my two sons that we, created in love, to love, to be loved by is hell. Separation from those He loved first is His truest sacrifice. 

 

My love for Him is so deep that I feel the pain He must feel, right now, with the world being so removed from Him but I rejoice when I remember the plan of salvation and of His soon return. I understand His love, I feel love because He first loved me. I understand His sacrifice as best as He has planned for me to understand His sacrifice. With each new Lenten season I understand His love and His sacrifice even more. Our Wednesday Lenten church services throughout our area only draws a handful of people but the Bingo parlors, bars and living rooms are filled to over flowing. People cannot even sacrifice their time to come into fellowship one more day a week for 7 weeks out of the year. The bride, His Bride, is wasting away. I weep but I also rejoice because the Holy Word has taught me that there will come again a revival larger than the world has ever known. His proven (and shown) love to me drives me ever forward with His Fruit regardless of the darkness around me. The world refuses Him and it makes me suffer so horribly that it empowers His Spirit within me to move out into the world to proclaim His Truth, His Way and His Life.

 

Love is glorious and love is painful. I understand His Love. I only wish I had my own power to give back my love in return. But then again, I know my power would fall far short of His Power so I am grateful to use Him to love Him as perfectly as His sinless flesh did when Christ died to complete His plan. I know I would, by His Power, give my all to Him and I like to prove, even if it is insignificant and superficial, this to myself by giving a personal sacrifice over the planned course of these 40 Lenten days. My sacrifice cannot even begin to define His sacrifice but I know He takes the gift with joy – after all, everything I do I do because my doings/works, are His and His alone. I must admit I do not understand why He started this plan going if it is all going to come full circle back to Him as planned? But who am I to question my Creator Lord and Savior I’m just thrilled to have the hope to someday kneel at His feet and sing praises and shout glory forever. The pains of the flesh are fleeting and but a moment in time. Amen!

 

I just love  this one verse. He comforts like a mother… oh He loves me so. Isaiah 66:13 As one whom his mother comforts, so I will comfort you; you shall be comforted in Jerusalem.



Edited by Beafaithful on Mar-10-11 at 7:46pm


      

As time passes and my years increase my most sound wisdom knows how little I really know. Just when you think the conclusion is near He turns the page of my book and on I go - constantly digging.
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the shovel
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Posted: Mar-13-11 at 3:09pm | IP Logged  

Hello Bea,

I've considered how I might respond to you in any kind of meaningful way, but if you're going to conclude that I don't understand you based upon my being a man, there's not a whole lot I want to respond to. I hope you understand my lack of desire to follow up on something I regard as bogus.

Peace to you,
Jim


      

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Beafaithful
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Posted: Mar-13-11 at 8:23pm | IP Logged  

Oh my I meant no disrespect. That is so far from what I even thought I had done and I am very very sorry. Again, my text was not meant to speak the opposite of my heart and it seems as though it did. With much regret I do understand how that this type of miscommunication can happen for I too "first thought" and took your comment about your wondering if I was aware... and I quote only to make it easier than scanning up this long page

"However I'm wondering now more than ever if you are aware of how HIS sacrifice, rather than ours, seems to take the back seat in the midst of it all?" <Jim

I did not realize that my beliefs and I were being scrutinized so carefully but after that “split second ouch” had past I was fine in explaining – I am very slow to anger and even slower to walk away from another person without giving them a chance to reply.

Too bad, I thought we had a wonderful friendship going. Like minds are hard to find.



      

As time passes and my years increase my most sound wisdom knows how little I really know. Just when you think the conclusion is near He turns the page of my book and on I go - constantly digging.
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the shovel
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Posted: Mar-14-11 at 3:54pm | IP Logged  

Hello again, Bea

Please don't assume that I'm not open to continue with you. You see, I wasn't expressing a feeling of being disrespected by you. For as I see it, if you are holding to the gender issue as the cause of my inability to read your heart, then any continued correspondence between us would be a waste of time for both of us. You need to realize that you're communicating with a man who has been living in a house with four females for most of his life. My oldest daughter has even referred to me as being more like a girl and not as being "one of the guys" on a few occasions because of how I view and understand things. That's usually in reference to the touchy, feely kind of stuff. Yeah, really!

Now, what needs to be kept in mind when communicating in a text-based discussion group is that we can only go on what we read. I can't read into what you might be feeling until I've experienced a bit more of what you've written, especially in how you respond. Indeed, our interaction gives me far more insight than merely reading your text ... an insight that ironically comes through the text. Of course, if we had been in the same room, I venture that our words might be radically different. After all, we would pick up on all the unspoken communication found in body language and facial expression. Here, we have to mostly do without that, unless we use smilies and/or put words to our unspoken communication.

While you might imagine that I'm carefully scrutinizing you and your beliefs, I'm trying to follow up on that which is most evident. In your admitted fervor and excitement over the Lenten season, you have expressed much regarding your sacrifices for God. Where you quoted me above was not the first attempt I made to understand how you saw what God has done for us in view of a season that's all about what we should do for him. Your reply expressed more about the religious nature of the Lenten season and of your own sacrifices during this time ... and yet nothing about God's expression of love toward us. And so I posed the question again. Am I misguided in wondering if your attention — at least during this time of year — is more focused upon what you do and/or should do rather than on what he has done and is doing? That is what I get from the interaction.

Jim


      

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Beafaithful
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Can any saved soul not realize what Christ has done for us? The very word Christ means anointed one, Messiah, deliverer so just knowing His name you know who and what He did for us but I see your point. Just my cry out to Him for Him to be my Savior proves I know what He has done or I would not have asked. No one walks the Christian walk without understanding what He has given up and done for us because the world treats us in the same way it treated Him. He made clear that His experience would be ours when we picked up our cross and followed Him. I breathe each breath knowing it is a gift and past that so is everything else; even the dark pit that I fell into that caused me to cry out was a gift. In fact that was the most precious of gifts I have ever been given because it was that moment I came to know Him and what He had to offer. I know my Lord far more deeply than I can express to mankind so I don’t bother because it means nothing to them anyway and means everything to Him. I am His.

 

How wonderful to have daughters. I am like you but opposite. I do not understand women at all because I was raised with men and that is why I have been so shocked and dismayed at how woman ministers are treated by clergymen. This could be what you are reading when your read my text because my heart does bare a deep confusion, not wound, when it comes to men these days. Throughout my whole life I have always been one of the boys and now since my ordination I am odd duck out but the pond is getting warmer now that they see I have no desire to head a church, I want only to be a woman minister to the community by offering the Way to Rest and Food – all of which have two similar yet deeper meanings once you know Christ as Savior.

 

Gen 3:16 To the woman he said, "I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you." 

 

In Genesis 3 we read the “pass the buck” story and must people just see only that and teach only that. I like to go deeper because this verse taught me a huge lesson and I must stress the taught “ME’ a huge lesson because I realize that this Holy Book teaches us all differently and grows even more deep in lesson the more we unwrap it’s pages.

 

“… Your desire shall be for your husband and he shall rule over you.” This is the end of that verse 16 and this ending is a whopper of a curse. In the garden Adam and Eve were in bliss and they were equal to each other with God being the only ruler. Adam and Eve were the perfect couple and deeply in love because they had not known anything else but perfection. The serpent didn’t choose Eve because she was the frail and more easily temped of the two because she was not; Satan chose her over Adam because it would do the most damage to God’s plan or so Satan thought. Satan chose a woman to undermine a man pinning both to the mat until Christ comes again. We can deny it all we want but there is a huge difference between the sexes and as much as we know about the other gender we can never know it all.

 

Not only did Adam eat the fruit but he let his equal tempt him into eating it. Eve had an evil angel, with all his evil cunning, trap her but Adam had no such evil he fell because he trusted Eve and his own personal judgment call over God’s Will. But this is not the lesson I hold dear and wanted to share, it’s just the intro.

  

This is my share... favorite Eve lesson… Eve’s desire was not sexual in nature as many people teach nor was it to forever strive to please Adam or to be a perfect mate because she already had and was all that in the garden. Her unquenchable desire was to be subservient to the head of the household: to Adam – but her flesh wanted dominance! That nasty bit of fruit caused men an woman to battle over the silliest of things. The garden was the starting place of the gender battle and confusion because of our punishment served upon "our" fall from grace: the fall that was predestined to suit God’s good and glorious plan.

 

Many people ask me "How can this desire or battle for dominance between genders be a good and Godly plan? When a man and woman get married, in ancient days and today in most counties it is prearrangement between families and not because of an emotional love connection at all. Men and woman are joined and “expected to learn” how to truly love someone very different from himself or herself. This is something we American’s have lost – not the prearrangement but the desire to learn how to love the one we pick. We don’t use marriage, as a tool to teach us how to love like in the days of the early Christian church and this is sad because this is God’s only true plan for us here on earth – God asks us all “Can you love like I love?”

 

I am to the far side of Eve. So far to the “far side” of Eve that many Adams I know, even the more sensitive and thoughtful ones, just don’t understand my surface. It’s only after they go beyond what is natural to most men and take time to see/understand my depth do they understand my being. I do not write with logic and make sure my text is well balanced; I write my heart and what is pounding in it at that moment. Some, orderly, logical men mostly, see it as a flaw but most people that have read my heart see it as a blessing because my passion speaks of what they too were feeling but just couldn’t grapple it into the light. The bookstores are piled high with books about Martian Men and Venus Woman: it’s a debate of misunderstanding between the sexes that goes all the way back to creation and to the curse that man and woman would no longer live in perfection.

 

I guess I just Eve’d all over my text again… sorry… I didn’t even (get it - eve’n ) realize I had until I skimmed it. I am, as the Holy Word demands a true Christian disciple to be, a willing slave for Christ. I know full well that nothing I have or do using my own fleshy nature or body is worthy of God, however I am cloaked in His righteousness and my sacrifice is indeed a legitimate form of praise, worship and service because of that deep, deep love and understand of Him. The early first century church taught sacrifice as a foundational step so that those who listened, and did, would be enlightened to the understanding of who and what our God gave up for us not to mention the spiritual benefit it brings. Christ Himself told everyone He met to “give up everything and follow Him”. We are to sacrifice all that we have… all that we are and follow Him because He wanted us to feel and understand. All I have is His. All He has is mine. I am His and I love to re-gift His gifts back so my Lenten homage is superficial to some that do not understand that to sacrifice is to understand and come to know Him deeply.

This is why St. Paul tells us never to judge a person spiritual nature because we cannot see or understand it: only God understands and sees it for what it is. I don’t speak of my Lenten service with a tired, sad face and I am not looking for credit from those around me. I speak of my Lenten service and what I hold dear because it has brought me such joy and closeness. If my experience, and that’s all He asks us to share, can cause just one person to “think” about my words and what those words mean to them His purpose has been served. Perhaps they may even find more richness in their life with Christ as well. We all must learn to share without wonder because each person’s walk brings different things to different people according to His Plan. We must not get hung up on man’s need to know or wonder if about any other man because this wonder and these “ifs” can mean many different things to many different people but it only means one thing to God and it means understanding and love. How can you show your love without sacrificing? You can’t. How can you measure its worth? You can’t. How can I explain I understand… He knows I do.

He draws us to Him and others of like mindedness not to question but to share! All for the glory of God!

May God's grace fill you and those you love and all those who read my words here. Amen



Edited by Beafaithful on Mar-15-11 at 1:45pm


      

As time passes and my years increase my most sound wisdom knows how little I really know. Just when you think the conclusion is near He turns the page of my book and on I go - constantly digging.
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Dignz
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Posted: Mar-16-11 at 12:43pm | IP Logged  

i was just thinking and appreciating that christ himself and his gospel/good news is the end of any separation of bond/free, male/female, jew/greek, etc.  we are united to and with god without separation ~ free-ed from such bondages found very much in this world of bond/free, male/female, jew/greek, etc. 

he himself is our freedom ... our good news ... our bondage breaker in heart, soul and mind ... our new life of eternal proportion! 

there is true freedom in realizing we have been freed by the death of jesus and the resurrection of christ  from any ties we once held with the old adamic nature we were originally born into.  miraculously, we have died and are dead to it.  we are now new creations in christ and the OLD has passed away.  we once walked in adam, but now we walk in christ.  we were once dead in our trespasses and sins, but we are now ALIVE to god in christ jesus.  our life with god is hid in christ jesus.  we once walked in darkness, blinded by all that was death in us.  but now in christ, we have the life of god and it is eternal, secure and without measure.  our new life IS LIGHT in a very dark world. 

all that is in the world will persistently and stubbornly insist that we are still separated and dead to god in our trespasses and sins, separated without hope and that we must consistently attempt in all futility our entire lives to do all we can to possibly please him, one day in the sweet by and by, etc.   the mind of the world is totally missing all that god has already accomplished in jesus christ.  we are miracles of god and that is no small thing!    we have the mind of christ and have no need to listen to what is no longer true of us in the mind of the world we once were bound by.  we are so much more than we know! 




Edited by Dignz on Mar-16-11 at 9:26pm


      

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Posted: Mar-16-11 at 1:54pm | IP Logged  

Yes indeed, we are so much more than we know ... and this is such excellent news! Thanks Sherri! :)

Jim


      

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Debi
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Posted: Mar-16-11 at 6:03pm | IP Logged  

Sherri wrote:
the mind of the world is totally missing all that god has accomplished in jesus christ.

Thanks Sherri!

All your post is Beautifully stated






      

Debi
"Truth is not the sum total of all true things, but is instead a person & His name is Jesus & He has become our LIFE."
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mary
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Posted: Mar-16-11 at 8:04pm | IP Logged  

 

      Sherri,

          Personally speaking..such excellent words of Life!!!!   



      

Mary
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Posted: Mar-16-11 at 9:22pm | IP Logged  

[QUOTE the shovel] >"Yes indeed, we are so much more than we know ... and this is such excellent news! Thanks Sherri! :)"

 

deb and mclady ~ hugs to you in the wonderful good news of who you/we are in the eternal one   




Edited by Dignz on Mar-16-11 at 9:27pm


      

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Simpleton
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Posted: Mar-17-11 at 9:47am | IP Logged  

Sherri, I just read your post this morning and found it to be one of the best condensed descriptions of what it means to be a believer. Up our way there seems to be a lot of confused rhetoric going on among some of our dear friends about what Christianity is all about. I hope you don't mind if I cut & paste your post and attribute it to our dear friend with the Capitalization impediment.

Love you,

Fred & Joy


      

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Simpleton
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Posted: Mar-17-11 at 10:53am | IP Logged  

And if I could just follow-up with a quote from James Stewart that I also read this morning. I've highlighted the part that I thought directly related to Sherrie's post but the whole quote seemed to shake a mental block in me loose:

"It is perhaps also a point worthy of remark that, while justification and reconciliation undoubtedly look forward and contain in germ all the harvest of the Spirit that is to come, yet-by the very nature of the terms themselves-they carry with them, and can never quite shake off, a memory of the old life left behind; their positive implies a negative; they speak of a transition, a break, an end and a beginning; and their brightness has a dark background to set it off.  Union with Christ, on the other hand, means the steady, unbroken glory of a quality of life which shines by its own light, because it is essentially supernatural; allows no hint of any negative, because "the fullness of God" is in it; and knows no before and after, because it is already eternal. "  A Man in Christ by James S. Stewart



      

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Posted: Mar-17-11 at 10:54am | IP Logged  

Well, hey Fred!

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

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"Capitalization impediment" 

yeah ... it drives a lot of people crazy!  especially my sweet hubby!  i didn't always type this way.  you can find that out if you go back several years to when i first began posting, i think.  i may type a little fast, but it is with oodles and oodles of mistakes that take me for-EVER to go back and correct.  so i discovered it to save me a lot of time and bother to just type straight across without bothering with the caps.    then i have a little more time to add all the little faces that take a lot more time on top of that. 

it is not that i don't know where the caps go ...   i just keep everything flowing better this way.    i am thankful that we do not have to type to perfection here on the shack.  i think we would miss a lot of good stuff from those whose hearts really want to share and participate. 

hugs to you and yours


      

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luvin
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Dignz wrote:


"Capitalization impediment" 

yeah ... it drives a lot of people crazy!  especially my sweet hubby!  i didn't always type this way.  you can find that out if you go back several years to when i first began posting, i think.  i may type a little fast, but it is with oodles and oodles of mistakes that take me for-EVER to go back and correct.  so i discovered it to save me a lot of time and bother to just type straight across without bothering with the caps.    then i have a little more time to add all the little faces that take a lot more time on top of that. 

it is not that i don't know where the caps go ...   i just keep everything flowing better this way.    i am thankful that we do not have to type to perfection here on the shack.  i think we would miss a lot of good stuff from those whose hearts really want to share and participate. 

hugs to you and yours



Amen to that!


      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

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[QUOTE=Simpleton]And if I could just follow-up with a quote from James Stewart that I also read this morning. I've highlighted the part that I thought directly related to Sherrie's post but the whole quote seemed to shake a mental block in me loose:

"It is perhaps also a point worthy of remark that, while justification and reconciliation undoubtedly look forward and contain in germ all the harvest of the Spirit that is to come, yet-by the very nature of the terms themselves-they carry with them, and can never quite shake off, a memory of the old life left behind; their positive implies a negative; they speak of a transition, a break, an end and a beginning; and their brightness has a dark background to set it off.  Union with Christ, on the other hand, means the steady, unbroken glory of a quality of life which shines by its own light, because it is essentially supernatural; allows no hint of any negative, because "the fullness of God" is in it; and knows no before and after, because it is already eternal. "  A Man in Christ by James S. Stewart

i like the bolded part.  i don't know what the other is really saying.  i have to chew on it.  just don't have time right now.  will get to it later ...   in the mean time ... current thoughts:

sadly, we are often too distracted from our reality in christ when we give heed to all the lies in the world that insist that we do NOT shine in their darkness, for all they see is sifted and scrutinized through the mind of the world and its endless expectations.  there will always be disappointment for that mind.  to be a little redundant, so much time is spent on how everyone 'lacks' for god, when in reality, the lack is based on the various expectations and requirements from the mind of the world that can never be satisfied, including and especially the religious mind. of course, the mind of the world IS religious.  it is not based on god himself and all he has accomplished in christ. 

either we are his or we aren't.  if we are his, there is no lack.  lack has been done away with in christ who fills all and is our all.  he is the all! 

light shines in darkness ... we are light ... it is true ... we have been joined to the light ... the fact that we repulse the mind of the world, and are revolting to it should not be so surprising.  creatures of darkness can not handle the light ... it is not their nature.  they can not.  but that supernatural light that gives light to darkness, life to death ...  is unpredictable and full of hope and life! 

would love to continue with thought, but ... i reahhhhhlly have to go ... for now.  so ... later i guess ... or not ...




      

"afterall, he's not a tame lion"
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Dave S
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Posted: Mar-17-11 at 2:17pm | IP Logged  

Capitalisation Impediment!!!

All things work together for those that love God   

 



Edited by Dave S on Mar-17-11 at 2:19pm
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Dignz
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Posted: Mar-17-11 at 9:06pm | IP Logged  

"I hope you don't mind if I cut & paste your post and attribute it to our dear friend with the Capitalization impediment." <fred

i'm sorry fred, i forgot to address this specifically.  no, i have no prob with that. 




      

"afterall, he's not a tame lion"
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Debi
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Posted: Mar-18-11 at 12:18am | IP Logged  

Hey, I have Capitalization compulsion.

I just can't ignore that wavy red line. I don't feel free.

      

Debi
"Truth is not the sum total of all true things, but is instead a person & His name is Jesus & He has become our LIFE."
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Dignz
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Posted: Mar-18-11 at 5:40am | IP Logged  

"... the whole quote seemed to shake a mental block in me loose ..." <fred

that is really cool, fred!     could you expound on it a bit ... the mental block part?

"I just can't ignore that wavy red line. I don't feel free." <debi

i guess i trained myself to ignore it, except for ... the spelling correction.  that is the one that gets me.    i am happy for that one tho'.    hey, you are free NOT to ignore it! 

if my 'caps-challenged' way of typing reahhhhlly offends and prevents communication, let me know ... i can retrain myself and go back to 'capping'.  i have to warn you tho' ... i cap things that others wouldn't, too. 






Edited by Dignz on Mar-18-11 at 5:41am


      

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Simpleton
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Posted: Mar-18-11 at 6:15am | IP Logged  

while i am like debi, not even being able to text without capitalization, you do know sherrie that my reference to your impediment was just humour don't you? heckyoudontevenhavetousepunctuationifyoudontwanttoorrspelkor ectlee

As for the mental block part being shook loose, I would like to expand on that but I don't think I'm able to do it briefly enough. No promises but I will try to address that at a later date.The reason I highlighted part of the quote is because that part seemed to equate so well with what you wrote.

And please, if my use of Capitalization or punctuation gives rise to consternation then communication would be appreciated.




      

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Dignz
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Posted: Mar-18-11 at 12:32pm | IP Logged  

fred    honest ... i did get your humor ... and LOVED it ... thus the laffy faces >  it was with LIGHT-heart and sherri-humor that i said what i said.  it was just a little explanation as to why i do what i do ... helps to get to know each other ... communication.  that was all i meant.  just shared the thoughts that crept up concerning my silly, for-a-sherri-reason lack of using caps.    no prob at all on my end concerning what you said.  i loved your humor!   

sooo looking forward to whatever you have to share when you are so inclined. 






Edited by Dignz on Mar-18-11 at 1:32pm


      

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Simpleton
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Posted: Mar-18-11 at 3:03pm | IP Logged  

Sherrie, I admire your sensitivety to how others might feel and it makes you the gentle person you are. You also have a great sense of humour and never did I think you were offended - just horseing around a bit. I guess I better start using those smilie faces ...




      

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Dignz
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Posted: Mar-18-11 at 3:19pm | IP Logged  

    

yes ... i do love the faces ... they do help a lot ... sometimes.   even then ... communication is such a challenge sometimes, isn't it?  sheeeesh   thanx for the 'gentle' encouragement.   perhaps it is more of an OVER SENSITIVE, anxiety <(all CAPS)  issue sometimes?      fine line i suppose!        

  anyway ...

love and hugs to you and yours  ~ 


      

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