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Biblical Interpretation
 Shovel Shack : Biblical Interpretation
Subject Topic: Eternity as Relationship
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Joyce
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Posted: May-11-05 at 12:01am | IP Logged  

 

Have been thinking about what Jim has on the home page about Eternity and that we are in it now instead of it being something that we look for in the future.  Had forgotten John's definition that Eternity is "knowing God and Christ".  Was wondering though if that knowing is something that is different or greater though than what we experience here since we will see Him as He is then.  I doubt that the "knowing" means intellectual knowledge of the attributes, properties, laws, etc of God as is focused on in some circles here... but rather knowing intimately.  It is someone's view that I read that it is a consuming spiritual flowing that we will experience between the Father, Son, and us.  But if eternity is now, then maybe that is going on more than what we realize.  I'm wondering too with all the mansion, stone gems, etc. talk of what heaven will be like... if that too isn't somehow just symbolic of something else spiritual.  When we do leave this place and enter a different dimension, it does seem though that it will be different than while we are on earth.  Maybe without the body and the physical world, it will just free us up to enter into greater, more focused relationship.  (?)

Joyce

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Dave S
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<When we do leave this place and enter a different dimension, it does seem though that it will be different than while we are on earth.  Maybe without the body and the physical world, it will just free us up to enter into greater, more focused relationship.  (?)>

Joyce

Why should we be caught up, like Adam , in an apparent position of something lesser than reality.

What if there is only ONE eternal dimension and there is no leaving of it. Does the seeming appearance of a second dimension put the ONLY dimension out of reach. To the fleshly Adam being deceived, the answer would have to be a resounding,yes!!

Why should SEEMING THINGS dictate nakedness, and a lesser position to us. The last Adam is come,that where HE is, there we may also be. Christ is the key to the mystery of ONE and the deliverer from the seeming second.

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LittleBird
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Dave..

but...

hmmmm.

my brain hurts.

err...

WHAT??????

 

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Dave S
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my brain hurts.

Oh yes, it will !! So did mine LOL for a number of years

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Joyce
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Littlebird,  I understand what you are saying too.

 

Dave S,

It sounds like you are saying that there is only one dimension.  I have a friend talking to me about how he feels that the spiritual is just a different vibration, but in the same area (so to speak) which you must be relating as 'dimension'. (Hard for me to not think and speak in terms of space.)   The "where I am you may be also" sounds like we are there and here at the same time except that there isn't two but one.  Guess shadows are always hanging around the realities.  I liked your question about the totality of the dimension experiencially not being out of reach.  Though I have sought it in various ways, I don't think it is probably in seeking, but in revelation. 

Well, in re-reading this, not sure it makes sense.  I do know though that questions will arise and then as I think about them and discuss them, it helps me either then or later down the road to maybe see more.  Would be interested in your honest response to what I am saying.  Thanks.

Joyce

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Buddy
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What I have experienced in my life is the sometimes "shock" of how if think and act so much in my physical self as opposed to letting my spirit speak to me.  I have find in easy and hard ways that when I listen to my spirit, that is now united with the spirit of Christ, that the physical becomes much more congruent with the peace, love and joy that I was seeking in the first place.
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LittleBird
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Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you guys are saying, or maybe I'm just out in left field somewhere.. But this is what is going through my mind: As far as eternity being right now, well...I can see and understand that. As we will NOT die because Jesus took our place and died FOR us. Now when we die, it's only our carnal, flesh that dies. Our core being, our soul, our spirit NEVER dies...it just wakes up into TRUE REALITY when we "die". There is no death. However to our carnal minds here on earth, there IS death because we are only seeing one side of death.... the side that is the physical flesh left behind. So, to our carnal minds, death IS REAL. because we do not see with our fleshy eyes...what has happened to the soul of a being when that being "dies".

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 1 Corinthians 13:12

YES. We are in the shadow of reality. When our flesh dies, and our soul is set free COMPLETELY....THEN we will be in reality. Mentally, we can be there, we are set free in THIS life, but not COMPLETELY. That won't happen until we are physically DEAD. Until we die, our soul, our spirit...no matter how much we are in the kingdom of God right NOW...we are still trapped in this vessel until our physical death does the final freeing.

We can have an "eternal viewpoint" meaning you see people in terms of eternity as opposed to their present actions. Jesus told us to love our enemies. I think he told us because one day, our enemies will end up being our friends, our brothers and sisters. We need to see people in terms of eternity, in terms of the Kingdom of God.... Jesus Christ is the saviour of ALL mankind, especially those who believe. 1 Timothy 4:10. People do the things they do because they are living in this world, and not knowing how much they are loved by God. One day, he WILL "wipe away all tears"... There IS a reason why we're here. Isn't this world, this life a learning process? How would you recognize the light if it weren't for the darkness? Yes, this is definitely something we have to go through, the darkness of this world, this life to truly recognize and appreciate the light. To truly recognize and appreciate and understand Love. To truly recognize and appreciate and understand God. We can be set free from this world, while we are STILL in this world...and I think it's a slow, constant process....but the final freeing, the final unveiling, won't happen until after you've passed from THIS life physically. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. John 16:12 I know that's a little out of context but that's kind of what I'm saying. There are things we just wouldn't be able to handle....(good things) while being in this fleshy realm. It's like, it's a metaphor and it's also literal at the same time. It starts out being a metaphor, and ends up being literal. Your carnal man will decrease as your spiritual man increases, we all know that to be true. The final filling up of the spiritual man can't happen until the carnal man is completely depleted, dead. That's the metaphor of life.

 ok, sorry I just had to laugh for a minute, because this makes perfect sense in my own mind, but trying to put it into coherent words is a whole other thing!

Well, those are just the things running around in my mind. sorry for the rambliness...I think maybe, just me and my imaginary friend understand what the heck I'm trying to say.  (It's really good stuff, though!) lol.

love,

LittleBird



Edited by LittleBird on May-14-05 at 12:03pm
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Joyce
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Littlebird,

Enjoyed reading what you wrote.  I guess if there was just one thing though that I would add as a response and question it would be that I am also thinking that maybe there is always more for me to experience further with regard to the true eternal (knowing) reality since the spirit is not confined by the physical.  Maybe a I have a "pie in the sky" approach to it all.  I am always encouraged on this site that I am already in that reality, but sometimes I just seem to search for more (experiencially).  Does everyone out there think I'm "out there"?       Maybe I'm just a spiritual romantic at heart.... thinking there is than what I have experienced so far.

Joyce

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mart1
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I'm right with you Joyce.  When i start wondering, "Why can't i just break on thru to the other side?", i remember how adam and eve were escorted out of the garden...and so i think next, "OK; so where does that leave me right now?"

But we all know that by the self-sacrifice of Christ, the veil before the Holy of Holies was ripped in two for us to come back in...

Yet i know that time is a big player in all of our lives; and that learning is a function under time.
I dunno what all this all means right now.  Would love to hear others' thoughts on this 'paradox'.
mart
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Dave S
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I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. John 16:12 I know that's a little out of context but that's kind of what I'm saying.

Littlebird

Although they could not bear them now, do you think there could be any possibility of them "moving on" or just remain frozen in that state?

<The final filling up of the spiritual man can't happen until the carnal man is completely depleted, dead. That's the metaphor of life.>

That would be true if the carnal man was a physical body. But the carnal man is a mindset IN a physical body with a belief that it must leave the physical to be completely free.

True freedom, and complete freedom comes in the revelation that the carnal man is utterly dead and that the spiritual man is alive also walking in a physical body.

Whilst the the carnal man is reckoned to be "partially" alive he will continue to eat from his tree, plucking scriptures to justify his "pie in the sky,when I die" theory, never being free indeed.  

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mart1
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Dave S, good afternoon!  (it's still early morning for me over here).  How's the weather for you over there today?  We're expecting rain and maybe thunderstorms again.

Dave, you wrote, "But the carnal man is a mindset IN a physical body with a belief that it must leave the physical to be completely free."

I hear you there; but your analysis doesn't satisfy me...to me, the body and the mind are vessels for the spirit from God.

I think that my spiritual 'mindset' has devolved into a carnal mindset, and i need to fight back and recover that from my own self.  It's a turf-war against myself; because i got an eye and an ear that i sometimes wish i could just pluck out or tear off, because they are hindering me.  Don't get me wrong here!  I'm not really talking about body parts!  They are of little consequence in spiritual matters.
mart




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mart1
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Dave, i think that i didn't make that last post entirely clear - my 'carnal-man-mindset' doesn't want to leave my body or to be set free at all.  It loves the chant, "Sex, Drugs, and Rock'n'Roll!"

To me, carnal-man-mind is petrified at the thought that it will ever leave the body.  Whaddaya think?
mart
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LittleBird
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Hey Dave,

In your opinion, what happens to you when you die?

 

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Dave S
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<To me, carnal-man-mind is petrified at the thought that it will ever leave the body.  Whaddaya think?.

The carnal mind is a worshipper of it,s many false gods from Lord, Lord,did we not, etc, to an horrendous fear of what it calls the unknown.

the mind of Christ is not a vessel, it,s simply a sound mind greater than the mind of this world.

<because i got an eye and an ear that i sometimes wish i could just pluck out or tear off, because they are hindering me.>

Would it not be a far better thing to reckon them to be crucified, what can a dead thing hinder? 

To want to be at war with them is simply the carnal mind reckoning them to be alive, what God has put to death is dead.

You simply follow a mind that reckons the appearance of things validates them as reality.

You,re not a vessel brother, you're a follower, the mind that you follow,you will become ONE with. It will never be YOUR mind but a LORD of your mind. Disciples are followers.

Example, "Get thee behind me Satan" is not a condemnation upon the disciple,but to the mind set that the disciple had become deceived  and enticed by and become one with.

Go to war with nothing, warring simply empowers a dead thing into the appearance of being alive.

Adam went to war, he fought against his nakedness, simply by trying to hide it,to cover it. He simply empowered it and it had dominion over him. Shame became alive in him and he greatly sorrowed and the sorrow turned to blame.

But now the mind that has dominion over all things is here, to be followed, to bow to , to be free in, to have peace and joy in,to become ONE with.

The mind that was in Jesus spoke on this wise,"BE YE FOLLOWERS OF ME" .

And again " who do you say that I AM"

"Thou art the CHRIST, the SON of the living GOD."

and again

"Father that they may be ONE as you and I are one".

Which is why so many are seekers, can anything else suffice?

  


 

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LittleBird
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P.S. I think we're basically saying the same thing?

but I'm not sure.

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Dave S
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LittleBird wrote:

P.S. I think we're basically saying the same thing?

but I'm not sure.

We are !! ?

Neither am I. LOL

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mart1
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Thanks, Dave...I think that i know what you mean there...
But is the book of Job at all relevant to us New Testament Christians?
Altho many Christians now believe that they are no longer under law because of the NT Word of God, do they also believe that they are no longer going to have things in their lives go in ways that they don't like at the moment that they happen?

Further, do people think less of me when i tell them that i sometimes argue with God, too?  (because i do; and people are often shocked when i tell them that.)

Also, as you grow into and 'acquire' the Mind of Christ, does that mean that you are at the same time losing all of your bodily/chemical/or-whatever emotions?  Everything that my older former-marine brother says to me implies that emotions are opposite to Faith in God.  But i think that he's just playing a false-front to me, like so many people do.

If he has 'risen above' all of his emotions, then why does he use so many triple and quadruple exclaimation points when he writes back to me about how unenlightened i am?

OK, Dave, i'm rambling now. Sorry.
mart


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mart1
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I think that many Christians expect, hope and depend that as they grow into the Mind of Christ and join into union with Him and the Father and the Spirit, that they will become "emotionless Christian robots".

Is that on anyone else's radar-screen?  Hey, if you think i'm nuts, please tell me!
Because i only got so much time left to learn what's real.  And outside of personal meditation-time with the Lord, i turn to you folks for answers and what you feel is real today.
mart
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Dave S
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<Is that on anyone else's radar-screen?  Hey, if you think i'm nuts, please tell me!>

Is peace, joy, righteousness etc. without emotion ? But not the emotion that the world gives.

Was Paul without emotion as he sang in prison.

Mart,your not nuts, but you seem to want the answers to the questions of the consequences of entering in, intrigue is not sufficient,entering in answers everything 

 

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the shovel
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mart1 wrote:
I think that many Christians expect, hope and depend that as they grow into the Mind of Christ and join into union with Him and the Father and the Spirit, that they will become "emotionless Christian robots".


Mart,

I can tell you from personal experience why such a futile hope began to develop within me many years ago; it's a simple as fear, guilt and shame.  After my first year of Bible college I slowly came to the realization that I was growing emotionally cold ... and I had always been so sensitive before that.

But it was a natural reaction to all the new perceptions I grabbed hold of during my indoctrinalization.  Fear that I was unworthy, fear about people burning in an eternal fiery pit, fear that I needed to give up those I loved, etc.  For a kid who grew up as an oversensitive cry-baby emotional shutdown became a safeguard for me so that I could "stand fast in the Lord".

I rejoice in having been set free from that bondage, and I have come to value the emotions I sought to remove.

Jim  :)


      

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Broken Link
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mart,

Are you asking that in relation to those of us on the board or to those in the IC?

Edited by Broken Link on May-16-05 at 7:09pm


      

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heretic - n 1: a person who holds beliefs in conflict with the dogma of the church.
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Judy
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I don't think I am understanding this thread totally, but I have watched enough sci-fi to know God is not interested in robots.  He didn't make us that way.  I don't think Adam and Eve were depicted that way before the fall.  The only one who could say an emotionless robot would be cool, would be a  little boy opening one for a present and the manufactuer who created it with their eye on the profit margins.  In my humble opinion. 
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Judy
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Oh, about my radar screen ...

I think God wants me to be me. 

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mart1
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Bill!  Definitely the IC!  I can't thank my friend enough for turning me on to this place!
I've tried and left several Christian forums because they are only different denominations squaring off against each other.  Have you ever seen this competition on PBS or elsewhere where brainy, totally 'technical' people from M.I.T. or other high-brow learning institutions build robots and make them fight each other to see who wins the compettition?  That's what the IC still seems like to me.

That's what i meant about robots, Judy.

Thanks for your words of May-16-05 at 6:34pm, Jim.
mart


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mart1
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Friends, i keep thinking that personally growing deeper into the Mind of Christ and that group-wise, corporately growing into deeper relationship with Father that we will see some effort amongst us to leave our 'Christian' denominational differences behind.

For me, that is a signpost along the way.  A hallmark of authenticity.  We all come to many crossroads in our lives; i now take the fork-in-the-road which promises me the most fellowship in Christ.

None of us are really seeking new people to argue with, are we?
mart  
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Judy
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Thanks, Mart, for the explanation.

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mary
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the shovel wrote:
mart1 wrote:
I think that many Christians expect, hope and depend that as they grow into the Mind of Christ and join into union with Him and the Father and the Spirit, that they will become "emotionless Christian robots".


Mart,

I can tell you from personal experience why such a futile hope began to develop within me many years ago; it's a simple as fear, guilt and shame.  After my first year of Bible college I slowly came to the realization that I was growing emotionally cold ... and I had always been so sensitive before that.

But it was a natural reaction to all the new perceptions I grabbed hold of during my indoctrinalization.  Fear that I was unworthy, fear about people burning in an eternal fiery pit, fear that I needed to give up those I loved, etc.  For a kid who grew up as an oversensitive cry-baby emotional shutdown became a safeguard for me so that I could "stand fast in the Lord".

I rejoice in having been set free from that bondage, and I have come to value the emotions I sought to remove.

Jim  :)

     Jim,

        I could never have said this as eloquently as you, though I would have liked to . For, I too, "value the emotions I sought to remove".  For me now, they remind me that I am fully alive in Him. 

        Appreciate this much.

        Love, Mary



      

Mary
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luvin
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I really enjoyed this topic..and I ESPECIALLY loved
what you shared Jim. My heart was encouraged by it.

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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the shovel
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Debi
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Yes, Adam this was an encouraging topic-thanks.

And I too "rejoice in having been set free from that bondage, and I have come to value the emotions I sought to remove."
 
Those emotions used to instead bring a lot of condemnation.

My spirit especially rejoices in this:

Dave S wrote:

That would be true if the carnal man was a physical body. But the carnal man is a mindset IN a physical body with a belief that it must leave the physical to be completely free.

True freedom, and complete freedom comes in the revelation that the carnal man is utterly dead and that the spiritual man is alive also walking in a physical body.

Whilst the the carnal man is reckoned to be "partially" alive he will continue to eat from his tree, plucking scriptures to justify his "pie in the sky,when I die" theory, never being free indeed.

I remember the confusion over the war supposedly going on and who was going to win and the lack of freedom it produced.

Judy wrote:
God is not interested in robots........ The only one who could say an emotionless robot would be cool, would be a  little boy opening one for a present and the manufacturer who created it with their eye on the profit margins.
How true.



      

Debi
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the shovel
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Yes, what else can ensue but confusion when we've got our dukes up slugging it out with with a guy who is already dead? It reminds me of the movie Rocky, where the main character was in meat lockers using the hanging cattle carcases as punching bags. That's a good picture of the bogus battle ... except that we thought we were actually being attacked by the enemy.

      

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Connie
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So,,,Jim, do you believe that there is a Real Enemy....i.e. the devil, Satan, etc. Or is he simply a personification of the power of the flesh or of a twisted mind?

      

Connie
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II Cor.4:5-6

    
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luvin
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Hi Connie great to see you here dropping in again!

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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luvin
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the shovel wrote:
Yes, what else can ensue but
confusion when we've got our dukes up slugging it
out with with a guy who is already dead? It reminds
me of the movie Rocky, where the main character was
in meat lockers using the hanging cattle carcases as
punching bags. That's a good picture of the bogus
battle ... except that we thought we were actually
being attacked by the enemy.


We most often think of this battle related to
ourselves but, this must be just as true in our
experience of dealing with OTHERS in the world.

[in dealing with others walking as if in the flesh
or
actually are in the flesh]

Edited by luvin on Dec-16-10 at 1:23pm


      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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the shovel
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Connie wrote:
So,,,Jim, do you believe that there is a Real Enemy....i.e. the devil, Satan, etc. Or is he simply a personification of the power of the flesh or of a twisted mind?


I still regard the evil one as being a real enemy, but he is also the father of the twisted mind of man. He is a liar and the father of lies. I think it's mostly bogus to try to separate the one from the other so that we can recognize him apart from the interconnection. Anyhow, Christ has done away with the lie at the very source.

Jim


      

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Connie
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Posted: Dec-17-10 at 8:43am | IP Logged  

So that's essentially why as believers indwelt with the spirit of Christ, we'll end up leaving falsehood behind in our journey. It's the spirit of truth calling us onward. Hence our journeying out of organized religion.

There's another place I've been visiting online that ministers to those leaving the institute of church behind and they have podcasts. Their last one brings up the fact that it seems to be true that a believer, leaving the "church", will be alone at some point in their journey. It's the aloneness that allows the individual to see and understand that their relationship with God can be trusted without a lot of outside influence.

That seems to be true for me. I've learned to trust that I'm His and He is mine. But with that security now comes the questions. For if the source of lies has been cut off and the liar made ineffective for me, is that also true for everyone, believer and non-believer alike? For He does love all of humanity. Why do others remain in the darkness of lies?  I just wonder at this and why I see and others don't seem to, don't even seem to WANT to know the truth?

It bugs me sometimes because I know I can't make anyone see even though I want them to see and share the truth with them. The greatest gift anyone could get this christmas season is the gift of sight.



      

Connie
"Wow!It's so bright in here!"
II Cor.4:5-6

    
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Shackmeister
Shackmeister


Joined: Oct-01-01
Location: United States
Posts: 4187
Posted: Dec-17-10 at 11:59am | IP Logged  

Connie :)

It surely is the greatest gift, isn't it? :)

We have been called out of the realm of darkness into the kingdom of light and now walk as lights in the midst of this present world of darkness, and this is why it is ineffective toward us who believe (and no, not because we have done something to bring it about). I likewise understand the questions as to why me and why not someone else, for I remember struggling with similar questions throughout most of my life. As to the grace that has delivered me, I can only attribute it all to him and not to any doctrine or position. It makes no difference what I can or cannot figure out regarding the same kind of questions that are still discussed and sometimes thought to be answered in the world. The miracle of grace is understood by the stark contrast that gives rise to the questions that confound the natural mind.

Love, Jim


      

DIGGIN'THE LIFE!
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