Surfing on life banner
The ShovelShack Archives
Between January 2002 and December 2011, almost 46,000 posts were created by members of the Shovel Shack discussion group.
In 2012, the Shovel Shack moved to a new home: shovelshack.org. Shovelshack.net will be kept intact as an archive for those amazing discussions.

Browse a bit and then join us at ShovelShack.org

The Stuff of Grace
 Shovel Shack : The Stuff of Grace
Subject Topic: Can the Blood HELP You?
Author
Message << Prev Topic | Next Topic >>
Mickey
Digger
Digger


Joined: Dec-11-03
Location: United States
Posts: 58
Posted: Dec-30-03 at 11:39am | IP Logged  

I found the post below another forum...........I'd love to hear what you all think of it, and how you would answer:

quote:
Micah 6:6-12
6 Wherewith shall I come before the Lord, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?
7 Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
9 The Lord's voice crieth unto the city, and the man of wisdom shall see thy name: hear ye the rod, and who hath appointed it.
10 Are there yet the treasures of wickedness in the house of the wicked, and the scant measure that is abominable?
11 Shall I count them pure with the wicked balances, and with the bag of deceitful weights?
12 For the rich men thereof are full of violence, and the inhabitants thereof have spoken lies, and their tongue is deceitful in their mouth.

"More and more I see that many here are firmly wedded to a magical thinking refuge. The idea that their behavior is somehow less than relevant to their salvation because Jesus, "once, for all," took care of EVERYTHING with his death on the cross.

Pitiful sinners, but totally saved by grace, not works.......allowing them to pretend that the atrocities of their nation will not impact their salvation.

Not so, according to the Bible.

The blood sacrifices of the OT are commonly accepted as "types" or symbols of the blood sacrifice of Jesus. Prophetic messages to us ABOUT Jesus.

Yet, if you really READ the prophets, you find them saying over and over that the bad behavior of Israel makes their fasting, (Isaiah 58) their blood sacrifices, (Isaiah 1) even their sacrifices of their "First-Born" (Micah above)..........null and meaningless.

Obviously, we can't IGNORE that message.

If you behave as Israel did, your claimed "Blood Sacrifice" of Jesus is similarily invalidated.

The teaching that we are "saved" and thus can get away with approving the same oppression and exploitation of the poor that Israel did.......may be comfortable and popular....

But it is simply not true."

End of post. Please share your thoughts.....

 

 



 

 



      

Be God's.
Back to Top
 
Dave S
Shackaholic
Shackaholic


Joined: Dec-01-01
Location: Isle Of Man
Posts: 913
Posted: Dec-30-03 at 12:32pm | IP Logged  

Obviously, we can't IGNORE that message.

Then obviously you better not, and if your behaviour is not above theirs ???

Back to Top
 
robyn77
Digger
Digger


Joined: Dec-05-03
Location: United States
Posts: 49
Posted: Dec-30-03 at 1:44pm | IP Logged  

So basically, we need to behave properly, and if we fail to do so, we won't be saved? I've heard so many things regarding works and salvation and the "true" meaning of salvation that I don't know what to believe and that maybe everything is just a big "crock". But if I think that way I will surely be condemned.

Jesus never said go ahead and do whatever you want because "I'll cover it with my blood!" He said the "way" to eternal life would be difficult. Wouldn't this imply something being hard for us to do?? 

Robyn

Back to Top
 
Connie
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: Dec-03-01
Location: United States
Posts: 1559
Posted: Dec-30-03 at 1:47pm | IP Logged  

I'd like to comment on this statement:

 "If you behave as Israel did, your claimed "Blood Sacrifice" of Jesus is similarily invalidated."


 Who says??? My behaviour( pre-cross) is what made the sacrifice most pertinent not non-pertinent.  It's none of his business what the Lord does for me post cross!

What an arrogant attitude to declare Jesus' sacrifice invalidated.



      

Connie
"Wow!It's so bright in here!"
II Cor.4:5-6

    
Back to Top
 
Buddy
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Aug-19-03
Location: United States
Posts: 310
Posted: Dec-30-03 at 2:04pm | IP Logged  

I read a post like this and am amazed at the level of spiritual manipulation it takes to write them.  I say this because the writer has ignored and totaly discounted a major event in history, the death and ressurection of Christ.  If we are still under the law then this writer is correct in his/her assumptions.  However, now being under grace our "works" flow from the finished "work" of Christ rather than vice versa.  By hammering others with their lack of works a thinker like the poster mentioned above actually destroys the very thing that will create "acceptable works" to God.  That is "works" or outcomes that flow from the indwelling spirit of God as I am transformed by the knowledge of his grace and love.  If my motive for "works" or outcomes is fear of punishment then what kind of love does that express to God and what do I make God out to be other than a Sunday school monster that cares little about the change in my heart and only about how well I make God look. 

Ok, I will stop puking now and will end with this quote, 1Corinthians 13:3 "If I give all I have to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing."   



      

Buddy
Back to Top
 
Dave S
Shackaholic
Shackaholic


Joined: Dec-01-01
Location: Isle Of Man
Posts: 913
Posted: Dec-30-03 at 2:54pm | IP Logged  

Robyn

The difficult and hard thing is to give up on the flesh, always in hope that the works of the flesh may count for something.

Because of the hopelessness of the flesh it was crucified and the new creation arose.

The sacrifices of blood and bulls could perfect nothing, because nothing of the flesh can be perfected. Let the dead bury the dead.

There are those that still try to apply the blood to the flesh in the vain hope that the combination of the blood and the good works of the flesh may be found to be pleasing.

But the blood confirms that the flesh is dead and the tomb confirms the flesh is dead and the spear confirms the flesh is dead and the water confirms the flesh is dead.

The sacrifice is not on behalf of the flesh,. the sacrifice is the death of it.

Know ye not we are crucified with Him and risen in newness of Life.

As Cain, the first Adam will always be standing on the earth looking at the image on the cross.

But as Abel, the Second Adam is lifted up , crucified but risen and all in Him risen in newness of Life.

Be not surprised if the first Adam comes with his dead letter passages from his dead letter book, claiming sight. Sight is only found beyond the cross where the Life is new. The first Adam being deceived is become as the deceiver. and all born of him being deceived are become as deceivers until they find their death in the death of Jesus Christ, whereupon they become as He is, Holy, Perfect, Just and True, as you are.

 

 

Back to Top
 
Buddy
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Aug-19-03
Location: United States
Posts: 310
Posted: Dec-30-03 at 3:12pm | IP Logged  

Dave,

Preach it brother.  You bring such a fresh perspective to this issue.



      

Buddy
Back to Top
 
the shovel
Shackmeister
Shackmeister


Joined: Oct-01-01
Location: United States
Posts: 4187
Posted: Dec-30-03 at 3:58pm | IP Logged  

Excellent discussion, y'all. 

<<< The sacrifice is not on behalf of the flesh,. the sacrifice is the death of it. >>>

It's no wonder that Peter described the blood shed by Christ as being so precious since it ended the old, which led the way to the establishment of the new!

<<< What an arrogant attitude to declare Jesus' sacrifice invalidated. >>>

Yes indeedy, arrogance, for sure!  But then again, arrogance goes along rather well with the mind that is stuck on the other side of death, doesn't it? 

<<< Ok, I will stop puking now >>>

Were you successful? 

Love, Jim



      

DIGGIN'THE LIFE!
Back to Top
 
GraceDigger
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Oct-08-02
Location: United States
Posts: 277
Posted: Dec-30-03 at 4:05pm | IP Logged  

Quote: Originally posted by robyn77 on 12/30/03

So basically, we need to behave properly, and if we fail to do so, we won't be saved?

Dear Robyn:  Isn't it absolutely and fantastically glorious that our Heavenly Father, Who already knew about every single sin we would ever commit, chose to save us anyway? 

Jesus never said go ahead and do whatever you want because "I'll cover it with my blood!" He said the "way" to eternal life would be difficult. Wouldn't this imply something being hard for us to do??

In Matthew 11:28-30:  "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for  our souls.  For My yoke is easy and My burden is light." 

Robyn




      

Resting in Jesus,
Gracedigger
PEOPLE NEED LOVING
THE MOST WHEN THEY
DESERVE IT THE LEAST.
(John Harrigan)
Back to Top
 
Buddy
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Aug-19-03
Location: United States
Posts: 310
Posted: Dec-30-03 at 4:27pm | IP Logged  

Jim,

Ok I feel better.



      

Buddy
Back to Top
 
graceman
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Sep-17-02
Location: United States
Posts: 455
Posted: Dec-30-03 at 4:51pm | IP Logged  

  Now I know why I like hanging out here...Ya'll so smart!!!

  Great thoughts everyone...especially our brother across the pond!!!



      

chris t.
Back to Top
 
mcdave
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: Dec-25-01
Location: United States
Posts: 1809
Posted: Dec-30-03 at 6:08pm | IP Logged  

Hi mickey,

thanks for your post.it is obvious that you are reading much here and giving thought to what you see posted..i'd like to add a little to the others posts here and want you to know that most responses you get here WILL be from the finished work perspective because by the grace of God that is where we now live.one thing about the old testament/covenant is that is is only a shadow of the better things to come and that is how i look at most OT scripture.One verse that I always come back to is in romans 6

       1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.


this is saying that of course we are not to live our lives in "sin" but it is the verse BEFORE this one that sets it up and so many miss in romans 5

18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

basiclly this is saying that because of Jesus ONE sacrifice that we no longer can be affected by the law.that in effect we can't out sin the grace of God.this is the horse that gets put in front of the "sin" cart not the other way around.otherwise we are back to performance based living and paul says clearly in galatians 3 that that doesn't work that if we break even ONE law we are guilty of breaking them all therefore the only way to be made right with God is for us to live in HIM hence galatians 2 says I have been Crucified with Christ and i no longer live and the life i live in the body i live in the Son of God.It is all about Him our part is to believe it and he even gives the faith for that part.....
sorry about the long post hope it makes sense


      

     It's not works,it's coffee.
   

Back to Top
 
PhilTex
Shackaholic
Shackaholic


Joined: Jul-04-02
Location: United States
Posts: 884
Posted: Dec-30-03 at 8:22pm | IP Logged  

Hi All

If you behave as Israel did, your claimed "Blood Sacrifice" of Jesus is similarily invalidated.

Can the actions of man, nullify the actions of God?

The longer I have walked with Him, the more I am convinced that behavior ( ours) is His doing. He works in us. If we try to "affect" a behavior then we are really being silly.I think He is able to effect our behavior to suit Himself.

Our actions must result from His work in us, not our works "proving" He is working!!

Just some thoughts.

Blood Sacrifice" of Jesus is similarily invalidated.

"Similarily invalidated" The blood of animals never counted for anything any way!!Of course in symbolism it could be symbolicly "invalidated", yet not in REAL life.

Then the question comes back to the original thought. Can the actions of man invalidate the actions of God. Since the blood of Christ REALLY paid the price.( God's actions)

Following the articles thinking the blood of animals must have paid for something. Huh?


 



      

http://phargasrant.blogspot.com/
Back to Top
 
Mickey
Digger
Digger


Joined: Dec-11-03
Location: United States
Posts: 58
Posted: Dec-30-03 at 9:40pm | IP Logged  

Thanks McDave............and everyone who posted! This forum has a great group of people and I'm so glad to get your thoughts!

Grace isn't a new topic for me......have read all the books, studied the sites etc.......AND have the blessing of knowing lots of grace folks! Still stuggling with certain aspects........

Here's one of the "aspects". The post below was written by the same person who wrote the original post, and it seems he makes some good points:

"The ref from Micah six using "offer up your first-born" refers specifically to Jesus.

The Prophets say clearly that the blood sacrifices are worthless if you continue in your sin. Therefore, the blood of Jesus is clearly worthless to those who continue in their sin.

Clear? It's practically flashed in our eyes and shouted in our ears.

And XXX, you can keep on singing that same tired song about grace.......but we are saved by grace through faith according to my Bible.

And faith without works is dead, according to my Bible.

So.....people who knowingly and stubbornly support works of evil (like the current Bush war crimes, for example, or the ongoing pillaging of third world countries by the rich nations, for example) have nothing but.....

Dead......

Faith.....

LIVE faith being the key component in "saved by grace through faith."

And Dead Faith cannot work with grace to save ANYONE.

Obviously, people like ***** love your message of ease because it allows them to hold that illusion that they are "saved."

Do you really want to help them hold that illusion?

Popular notion.

And Wrong."

Looking forward to your wisdom! Blessings to you all!

 

 



      

Be God's.
Back to Top
 
robyn77
Digger
Digger


Joined: Dec-05-03
Location: United States
Posts: 49
Posted: Dec-30-03 at 10:40pm | IP Logged  

Mickey,

Am I safe in assuming that XXX refers to Jim, and ***** refers to me? If you have something to say, why not spell it out? Upon what are you basing your conclusion that one of us is deluding ourselves with a false message of grace? Who would you be to know whether or not it would be an illusion? Do you look on the heart of this person? Or do you base your assumption on an outward remark?  I have never given any indication that I agree with or conform to this idea of "endless grace." If you read any of my other posts here you will see this is quite apparent. I do believe in God's grace towards us, but it is also obvious to me that there ARE some conditions to this offer of grace. I do not believe in universal salvation, as much as it pains my heart not to. I would love for everyone to be saved. But Jesus Himslef said it would not be so.

So what is your intent when you posed the above conclusion? Do you speak from the all knowing Judgement seat of Christ??

 

~Robyn

Back to Top
 
mcdave
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: Dec-25-01
Location: United States
Posts: 1809
Posted: Dec-30-03 at 11:04pm | IP Logged  

um,there is only ONE blood sacrifice that is valid anymore and that is Christ on the cross.at that point in time he died for ALL sin past present and future.in fact for us living today every sind we have commited or will commit was FUTURE sin and he died for them all.read hebrews if you want a picture of what his blood sacrifice did.micah and the prophets all pointed to Christs' perfect sacrifice.one time for all.the rendering of Christ saying"it is finished" on the cross means just that.the work of paying for sin is finished.the tense of what he is saying would be the same as saying"i have closed the door" or "the door is closed and continues to remain closed" the same way "it is finished" or "the price of sin is paid for and continues to be a concluded thing" it is the same it is done.HE did it.it is not easy believism Christ died so that we could recieve his grace and mercy......

      

     It's not works,it's coffee.
   

Back to Top
 
Mickey
Digger
Digger


Joined: Dec-11-03
Location: United States
Posts: 58
Posted: Dec-30-03 at 11:25pm | IP Logged  

Quote: Originally posted by robyn77 on 12/31/03

Mickey,

Am I safe in assuming that XXX refers to Jim, and ***** refers to me? If you have something to say, why not spell it out? Upon what are you basing your conclusion that one of us is deluding ourselves with a false message of grace? Who would you be to know whether or not it would be an illusion? Do you look on the heart of this person? Or do you base your assumption on an outward remark?  I have never given any indication that I agree with or conform to this idea of "endless grace." If you read any of my other posts here you will see this is quite apparent. I do believe in God's grace towards us, but it is also obvious to me that there ARE some conditions to this offer of grace. I do not believe in universal salvation, as much as it pains my heart not to. I would love for everyone to be saved. But Jesus Himslef said it would not be so.

So what is your intent when you posed the above conclusion? Do you speak from the all knowing Judgement seat of Christ??

 

~Robyn


Oh gosh, I apologize for any confusion I may have caused! Both of my posts, the quotes, are from another forum, written by someone other than me........as I said in my first post on this thread, I'm seeking YOUR opinions.........seeking to get that understanding.......feeling that the atmosphere here is conducive to learning and growth.

I did not write either quoted post. I did put XXX where names were, since the posts are from another forum and the names would be meaningless to anyone here.

I'm truly sorry, Robyn, I can't see how on earth I gave the impression that I was talking about you and Jim, because the thought never entered my mind..........if I could SEE what I did wrong, I could avoid it in the future. But I just don't see it. Please help!

God bless you all, and Happy New Year!

Mickey

 

 

 



      

Be God's.
Back to Top
 
robyn77
Digger
Digger


Joined: Dec-05-03
Location: United States
Posts: 49
Posted: Dec-30-03 at 11:43pm | IP Logged  

Well, the 3 x's (xxx) seemed to symbolize JIM and then my name was the only one with 5 letters...(*****) ROBYN.  See? I thought you were done quoting and had moved on to actually making your OWN statements! I'm sorry I was confused. Now that I look back I notice the quotation marks at the end. How stupid of me. But if you or anyone else HAD said those things, that would have remained my reply. Maybe I'm too defensive here, I have struggled with the assurance of my own salvation a lot, and instantly thought you were judging me to be the only poster here who wasn't really saved! See how fear can taint one's perceptions!!?? Once again, I'm sorry for my confusion.

~~Robyn 

Back to Top
 
Brick's Mom
Digger
Digger


Joined: Dec-30-03
Location: Canada
Posts: 3
Posted: Dec-31-03 at 7:19am | IP Logged  

Hey, can a newbie get in here?  (someday I'll plug in my own story so y'all have a perspective on where I'm coming from...) 

I guess I don't know Robyn's whole story, but the statement:

<< I have struggled with the assurance of my own salvation a lot,>>

opens up a can of worms for me.  I am no biblical scholar and have not spent a great deal of time looking to the word for answers to this particular query, so I'll appreciate any input anyone wants to give...basically, my question is this:

If someone has given their life to Christ at some point, but then has fallen away, what is their place in heaven?

I look forward to hearing your perspectives!

 



      

Mom of Brick
Galatians 5:25
Live It
Back to Top
 
mcdave
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: Dec-25-01
Location: United States
Posts: 1809
Posted: Dec-31-03 at 7:34am | IP Logged  

Hello Mom of Brick ,

there is a wealth of info in the Q&A section here at the shack.lots of"newbies"(me included ) have found answers to many such imponderables there in the different responses to others questions. try this link .if it doesn't work either cut and paste it in your browser or just look at the top of this page click Q&A and it is under the heading SALVATION,insecurity or Security.

http://theshovel.net/questions/menu.asp?FID=27

      

     It's not works,it's coffee.
   

Back to Top
 
Connie
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: Dec-03-01
Location: United States
Posts: 1559
Posted: Dec-31-03 at 8:01am | IP Logged  

Hey all,

And then this thought occurs to me about this person (the one Mickey is quoting):  Poor ol' soul!  He's still living under the burden of his pride trying to deal with his ugly old life in his own way.  What a drag for him (or her)! 

Thank God I'm freed from all that crap and I hope and pray this person's eyes of understanding are enlightened soon so that he quits going around trying to make everyone as miserable as he is!!!!



      

Connie
"Wow!It's so bright in here!"
II Cor.4:5-6

    
Back to Top
 
Nette
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Apr-10-02
Location: United States
Posts: 204
Posted: Dec-31-03 at 11:17am | IP Logged  

The longer I have walked with Him, the more I am convinced that behavior ( ours) is His doing. He works in us. If we try to "affect" a behavior then we are really being silly.I think He is able to effect our behavior to suit Himself.

Our actions must result from His work in us, not our works "proving" He is working!!

Phil,

 I can sooo relate to this statement..WOW awsome..My thoughts as I read your post are....Our behavior, EVEN the behavior that we think is "sin" or "bad" or "wrong" is in fact , as you said, His doing. This is what , for such a long time, kept me from accepting myself AS HE DOES...."TOTTALLY FORGIVEN" and "LOVED JUST AS I AM" and "100% ACCEPTED BY HIM FLESH AND ALL"and "ALL that I am He did and continues to do" ...as in conforming me to His image....Every single day He soooo Lovingly shows me a new (to me) truth and I see that my own thinking was (maybe in some aspects truth) but not total truth...like an unfolding re-veal-ation of HIMSELF. If we are "perfect, holy, forgiven", could it be that ALL the things ( sin in our eyes) within ourselves that we so struggled with to change, or got upset and discouraged with ourselves about, because as hard as we tried to "BE" who we thought we were supposed to be  " a good little Christian" are the very "things" that He so lovingly used to show us and bring us to His Life? And was that process "Our Cross"? Through Gods eyes...Is there sin? was it eradicated , done, finished, out of His unfathomable Mercy and Love for the human race? And in our realizing our TOTAL Acceptance by HIM ...we too can accept  "ALL"  that we are... and in turn somehow when I stop "TRYING"to change my humanness  and "REST" in His UNCONDITIONAL LOVE for me, those things that were such a struggle for me no longer are an issue and I have noticed how they seem to decrease more and more and are even no longer there at all....I suppose the quotes of Mickey's post about "always Saved" so it's ok to do whatever, have a whole "NEW" meaning... 

I know that this is a long scripture to read but it is exactly what I'm saying above.....

 

 

Romans7 (DBY)

5 For when we were in the flesh the passions of sins, which [were] by the law, wrought in our members to bring forth fruit to death;  6 but now we are clear from the law, having died in that in which we were held, so that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in oldness of letter.  7 What shall we say then? [is] the law sin? Far be the thought. But I had not known sin, unless by law: for I had not had conscience also of lust unless the law had said, Thou shalt not lust; 8 but sin, getting a point of attack by the commandment, wrought in me every lust; for without law sin [was] dead.  9 But *I* was alive without law once; but the commandment having come, sin revived, but *I* died.  10 And the commandment, which [was] for life, was found, [as] to me, itself [to be] unto death: 11 for sin, getting a point of attack by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew [me]. 12 So that the law indeed [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Did then that which is good become death to me? Far be the thought. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death to me by that which is good; in order that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but *I* am fleshly, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do, I do not own: for not what I will, this I do; but what I hate, this I practise. 16 But if what I do not will, this I practise, I consent to the law that [it is] right.  17 Now then [it is] no longer *I* [that] do it, but the sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, good does not dwell: for to will is there with me, but to do right [I find] not. 19 For I do not practise the good that I will; but the evil I do not will, that I do. 20 But if what *I* do not will, this I practise, [it is] no longer *I* [that] do it, but the sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then the law upon *me* who will to practise what is right, that with *me* evil is there. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man: 23 but I see another law in my members, warring in opposition to the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which exists in my members. 24 O wretched man that I [am]! who shall deliver me out of this body of death? 25 I thank God, through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then *I* *myself* with the mind serve God's law; but with the flesh sin's law.

Romans 8 (DBY)

8:1 [There is] then now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, having sent his own Son, in likeness of flesh of sin, and for sin, has condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law should be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to flesh but according to Spirit.5 For they that are according to flesh mind the things of the flesh; and they that are according to Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind of the flesh [is] death; but the mind of the Spirit life and peace. 7 Because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God; for neither indeed can it be:8 and they that are in flesh cannot please God. 9 But *ye* are not in flesh but in Spirit, if indeed God's Spirit dwell in you; but if any one has not [the] Spirit of Christ *he* is not of him: 10 but if Christ be in you, the body is dead on account of sin, but the Spirit life on account of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that has raised up Jesus from among [the] dead dwell in you, he that has raised up Christ from among [the] dead shall quicken your mortal bodies also on account of his Spirit which dwells in you. 12 So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to flesh; 13 for if ye live according to flesh, ye are about to die; but if, by the Spirit, ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live: 14 for as many as are led by [the] Spirit of God, *these* are sons of God. 15 For ye have not received a spirit of bondage again for fear, but ye have received a spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are children of God. 17 And if children, heirs also: heirs of God, and Christ's joint heirs; if indeed we suffer with [him], that we may also be glorified with [him]. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy [to be compared] with the coming glory to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious looking out of the creature expects the revelation of the sons of God: 20 for the creature has been made subject to vanity, not of its will, but by reason of him who has subjected [the same], in hope21 that the creature itself also shall be set free from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God.

 28 But we *do* know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to purpose. 29 Because whom he has foreknown, he has also predestinated [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, so that he should be [the] firstborn among many brethren.30 But whom he has predestinated, these also he has called; and whom he has called, these also he has justified; but whom he has justified, these also he has glorified.31 What shall we then say to these things? If God [be] for us, who against us? 32 He who, yea, has not spared his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him grant us all things?33 Who shall bring an accusation against God's elect? [It is] God who justifies: 34 who is he that condemns? [It is] Christ who has died, but rather has been [also] raised up; who is also at the right hand of God; who also intercedes for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? tribulation or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36  According as it is written, For thy sake we are put to death all the day long; we have been reckoned as sheep for slaughter.  37  But in all these things we more than conquer through him that has loved us.  38  For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,  39  nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which [is] in Christ Jesus our Lord.



      

"A Woman's Heart should be so lost in God that a man needs to seek Him in order to find her."
Back to Top
 
Mercy Man
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Dec-07-03
Location: Canada
Posts: 213
Posted: Dec-31-03 at 4:18pm | IP Logged  

Excellent thread, and excellent posts, in my view. My first thought after reading through many of the responses was "And I beheld the zeppelin of unmerited favor through meritorious service fall from the sky into a twisted burning heap of metal on the tarmac. And I heard a voice as of a man shout "Oh, the humanity.."" Okay, maybe the analogy needs some work, but it's a start.

One thing that I think that is very important to stress is that just about everything in the OT is but a type and shadow of the Finished Work of Christ. Much attribution beyond that is doomed to cascade failure, as it should be.

The only thing common between atonement in the Old and New Covenant is the word atonement.

The only thing common between the first and Second Adam is the name Adam.

 



      

He has made us Accepted in the Beloved
Back to Top
 
mcdave
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: Dec-25-01
Location: United States
Posts: 1809
Posted: Dec-31-03 at 4:48pm | IP Logged  

Yep.

      

     It's not works,it's coffee.
   

Back to Top
 
the shovel
Shackmeister
Shackmeister


Joined: Oct-01-01
Location: United States
Posts: 4187
Posted: Dec-31-03 at 4:49pm | IP Logged  

Quote: Originally posted by Mickey on 12/30/03
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The post below was written by the same person who wrote the original post, and it seems he makes some good points:

"The ref from Micah six using "offer up your first-born" refers specifically to Jesus.   The Prophets say clearly that the blood sacrifices are worthless if you continue in your sin. Therefore, the blood of Jesus is clearly worthless to those who continue in their sin.  Clear? It's practically flashed in our eyes and shouted in our ears.  And XXX, you can keep on singing that same tired song about grace.......but we are saved by grace through faith according to my Bible.  And faith without works is dead, according to my Bible.  So.....people who knowingly and stubbornly support works of evil (like the current Bush war crimes, for example, or the ongoing pillaging of third world countries by the rich nations, for example) have nothing but..... Dead......Faith..... LIVE faith being the key component in "saved by grace through faith."  And Dead Faith cannot work with grace to save ANYONE. Obviously, people like ***** love your message of ease because it allows them to hold that illusion that they are "saved."  Do you really want to help them hold that illusion?  Popular notion.  And Wrong."

Looking forward to your wisdom! Blessings to you all!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello Mickey!

Actually, this writer does make one good point:

<<< The Prophets say clearly that the blood sacrifices are worthless if you continue in your sin. Therefore, the blood of Jesus is clearly worthless to those who continue in their sin. >>>

Yes, yes, the blood sacrifices WERE worthless because the people did in fact CONTINUE in sin; the blood of Jesus would LIKEWISE be worthless if those he delivered continued in sin.  Of course, this is EXACTLY where we begin to get introspective and start judging the new creation in Christ according to the damned perspective and upon the same basis of the old.  In doing so, we only become as confused as Israel ever was as to what it meant to continue in sin, for all they ever understood was the breaking of commands and the continuing need to have them not be held against them.

Israel's problem ultimately wasn't their breaking of laws (i.e. transgressions), it was the simple reality that their existence was SUBJECT to the elemental world upon which those laws were founded.  Of course they would break any laws handed down to them, for they were doomed to fail.  The blood sacrifices only REMINDED them of their desperately incurable condition, and even though such sacrifices declared forgiveness for sins it only served to convince them that REAL forgiveness was just a facade. 

The fact that sacrifices were a regularly scheduled part of their existence only reinforced the reality that their lives were also scheduled to be lived in an ongoing sin cycle.  As a matter of fact, the addition of laws and requirements only caused their sinning to increase exponentially.  An effective sacrifice would not only pardon them of their past offenses, it would remove them from their former subjection, by which they had been made effective servants of sin.  Realize that while the law may have stimulated sin, it was not the cause of their subjection to it.  Their subjection to sin was inherited from Adam's sin, for they, as the rest of the world, were born into a condition in which "choice" was primarily one's preferred method of bondage.

Now, if the sacrifice of Jesus was of the same kind as that of bulls and goats, then it would have left the beneficiaries in the exact same place, which is an existence that has been designed around sin.  And yet this is what makes the sacrifice (blood) of Christ something totally unique, for as Dave so well stated, it removed the offending party, that is, it destroyed that which was in subjection to the elements of this world.  It removed the sinner, and in doing so, it invalidated the law against him, which in turn destroyed the life that found its continuance in sin.

This is precisely why Paul presented his question to the Romans in such clear-cut terms: How SHALL we, who died to sin, continue in it any longer?  For those who have died to sin and made alive to God do not and can not continue in sin.  And it's not because those who are saved by Jesus might not get dragged through the sewer causing all around to judge the dirt, but because the real person we have been made in Christ has not been left in subjection to the elemental world, as was Israel, regardless of how many sacrifices had been made on their behalf. 

Our righteousness in Christ can not be compared to the righteousness of the law, for the righteousness of the law - and its sacrifices - was only a facade.  The declarations of forgiveness and righteousness under the law were ONLY legal declarations, while the forgiveness and righteousness of Christ, being testified to by the law and the prophets, is REAL.  Isn't it ironic how many grace teachers have stood upon a righteousness in Christ that is only a legal declaration?

The fact that so many find it plausible to suggest that those in Christ, those who have died to sin in him, can still continue in sin only highlights how influenced we have become by elemental judgments ... those which are based upon that which can be held up to standards so that one is found in violation.  In other words, LAW.

<<< The ref from Micah six using "offer up your first-born" refers specifically to Jesus. >>>

"With what shall I come to the LORD and bow myself before the God on high? Shall I come to Him with burnt offerings, with yearling calves?  Does the LORD take delight in thousands of rams, in ten thousand rivers of oil?  Shall I present my firstborn for my rebellious acts, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?"  (Micah 6:6-7)

Geez, read the passage and it should be more obvious that Micah began asking questions in view of the "thus saith the Lord" declarations in verses 1-5.  No doubt there could easily be an allusion to Jesus' death in the statement, but in context Micah is rhetorically debating the effectiveness. or rather, the ineffectiveness, of many and diverse sacrifices for sin, including his own firstborn son.  He went on to demand that the very heart of God toward his people had to do with reality as opposed to form.

Never forget this very revealing passage from somewhere in Jimicaia: 
"If thou searchest for sin with thy whole heart thou shalt surely find it, even in that place where thy God hast removed it as far as the east is from the west; for in all thy searching, if thou shalt take up the scattered fragments of the tablets that were destroyed in that place of eternal destruction, and thou useth the glue of contention to piece it back together, then thou shalt severely criticize thyself and thy brethren in any matter that seemeth good and right in thine eyes that have been freshly renewed by the dust of thy condemnation."



      

DIGGIN'THE LIFE!
Back to Top
 
Mickey
Digger
Digger


Joined: Dec-11-03
Location: United States
Posts: 58
Posted: Dec-31-03 at 7:50pm | IP Logged  

Jim, thank you for the awesome post.

THIS is wonderful: "Never forget this very revealing passage from somewhere in Jimicaia: 
"If thou searchest for sin with thy whole heart thou shalt surely find it, even in that place where thy God hast removed it as far as the east is from the west; for in all thy searching, if thou shalt take up the scattered fragments of the tablets that were destroyed in that place of eternal destruction, and thou useth the glue of contention to piece it back together, then thou shalt severely criticize thyself and thy brethren in any matter that seemeth good and right in thine eyes that have been freshly renewed by the dust of thy condemnation."

Gee, where can we buy that book????

I too appreciate the great answers here.......



      

Be God's.
Back to Top
 
PhilTex
Shackaholic
Shackaholic


Joined: Jul-04-02
Location: United States
Posts: 884
Posted: Dec-31-03 at 10:49pm | IP Logged  

Hi All

OK. Maybe a little different approach.

Maybe the problem with the OT people was the feeling that sacrifice of animals was not really going to save them??

Ever wonder bout that. These folks were just as smart as us. They HAD to know there was more to salvation than these silly animal sacrifices! Right? Don't we doubt the validity of dead religion even now?They did also.

Jesus said the OT testified about Him. These people knew that, even if only a little. The could "feel" there was more to salvation than that. They looked forward to that something. Even if they did not know what, they had to know something better was out there.

Thats part of what I see in that original article. The writer is allmost using the emptiness of the OT religion to make a point concerning the REAL life. There is no way that can be done.

Our actions are not larger than God?? No way! Our actions can not nulify anything of God's.

Told some one today: Quit worring about your actions. God will lead you to be His person. He is not suprised by bad actions. We are reconciled to God. NOTHING can/stop/abort/nulify,that,--well you get the idea.

As long as we focus on evil we will never see the work of God going on in us.

Oh boy starting to ramble.



      

http://phargasrant.blogspot.com/
Back to Top
 
Mickey
Digger
Digger


Joined: Dec-11-03
Location: United States
Posts: 58
Posted: Jan-01-04 at 1:35am | IP Logged  

Quote: Originally posted by PhilTex on 1/01/04

Told some one today: Quit worring about your actions. God will lead you to be His person. He is not suprised by bad actions. We are reconciled to God. NOTHING can/stop/abort/nulify,that,--well you get the idea.

As long as we focus on evil we will never see the work of God going on in us.


My wise mouse friend! You are so right.

How quick we can be to focus on evil...........even to the point of trying to figure out why grace can't work........and getting into endless arguments about our part/God's part.....ad nauseum.

Scripture tells us to GUARD our hearts with all diligence, for out of them flow the issues of life. We guard our STUFF........but how easy it is to neglect our hearts.......

And get weighted down with worries that block us from seeing the good that God is accomplishing.

You've blessed me with your post. I may not understand all the details of grace, but I know the One who provides it.....and maybe that's enough to know for now.

Here, I'll share this chunk of cheese with you, buddy!

 

 

 



      

Be God's.
Back to Top
 
Joyce
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: Mar-14-02
Location: United States
Posts: 1939
Posted: Jan-01-04 at 2:48pm | IP Logged  

 

Really good thread.

Appreciated especially Jim's last post which states in words what happened to me in reality.  For a lo-o-o-ng time, I could never figure out what it meant in Romans when it said I was dead.  I kept getting hints and some understandings;  but lo and behold, one evening in a hotel room in Missouri, (even though when I came to Christ, and I BECAME the new creation that is without sin,) the reality of it in my mind finally intercepted with that, and I realized in my heart and mind that truly, it was true.  And saw as someone pointed in a corner of a room, my sin as separate "over there" apart from me.  I have never been the same.  There is nothing like revelation.

Joyce 

Back to Top
 
Journey
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Jul-25-03
Location: Canada
Posts: 207
Posted: Jan-01-04 at 6:11pm | IP Logged  

[...]So.....people who knowingly and stubbornly support works of evil (like the current Bush war crimes, for example, or the ongoing pillaging of third world countries by the rich nations, for example) have nothing but.....[...]

Guess I'll comment. 

Just finished reading this.    Is it safe to comment?

From the opening post, in my opinion & that's all it is, this is the point/agenda behind the original posters post.    Therefore, I wasn't surprised when I read the above quote from that posters follow-up post.

I keep trying to say more here & keep deleting.  



      

Journey
I wish to say what I think and feel today, with the proviso that tomorrow perhaps I shall contradict it all. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
Back to Top
 
robyn77
Digger
Digger


Joined: Dec-05-03
Location: United States
Posts: 49
Posted: Jan-01-04 at 7:24pm | IP Logged  

You may be right, I, too sensed some judgementalism based on politics. Like if you support Pres. Bush you must be evil and can't have access to God's grace.

This seems like someone trying to validate a personal opinion and then justify it Biblically.

Post on, Journey!

 

~~~Robyn~~~

Back to Top
 
Journey
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Jul-25-03
Location: Canada
Posts: 207
Posted: Jan-02-04 at 9:26am | IP Logged  

Some thoughts I jotted down on paper as a result of thinking about these two posts Mickey posted from elsewhere.

Atrocities are worldwide
Genocide still abounds
It's not just about black & white
It's not just about rich & poor
Humankind has been slaughtering their own since the beginning of time
Survival of the fittest?
Hatred, inborn, or created by circumstance?
Love exchanged for a lie
Where is the truth?
Can't all truth be manipulated to bring about a new truth?
So, which truth is now truth?
Evil?
One human's evil is another human's power
Into the mix, we throw in salvation?



      

Journey
I wish to say what I think and feel today, with the proviso that tomorrow perhaps I shall contradict it all. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
Back to Top
 
Dave S
Shackaholic
Shackaholic


Joined: Dec-01-01
Location: Isle Of Man
Posts: 913
Posted: Jan-02-04 at 3:27pm | IP Logged  

Behold I AM the door

From the place of hate.

Where good hates evil

And evil hates good.

Where good and evil

Dwell together in harmony

The harmony of hate.

I AM not there.

My salvation is come there

Not cast into this hatred

To bring peace to this hatred

But to deliver from hatred

Back to Top
 
the shovel
Shackmeister
Shackmeister


Joined: Oct-01-01
Location: United States
Posts: 4187
Posted: Jan-02-04 at 5:56pm | IP Logged  

Thanks Dave!

This is most excellent :)

Love, Jim

      

DIGGIN'THE LIFE!
Back to Top
 
Joyce
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: Mar-14-02
Location: United States
Posts: 1939
Posted: Jan-03-04 at 2:58pm | IP Logged  

Dave S,

Yes that was really good.  It took me a couple of readings to get it.  It reminds me of how when someone starts discussing about present political circumstances, the thought just keeps coming to mind that it really isn't "Christ" coming across, but know too that he meets those in a personal way that are affected by it or in the aftermath of it. 

 

Back to Top
 
Guest
Guest
Guest


Joined: Oct-01-03
Posts: 36
Posted: Feb-01-04 at 12:32am | IP Logged  

Hi Mickey, good to see you over here.  Good post too.  JayCee.

By the way, Mom says "hi"

Back to Top
 
luvin
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: May-20-02
Location: United States
Posts: 5235
Posted: Jul-07-10 at 11:30pm | IP Logged  

the shovel wrote:

Quote: Originally posted by Mickey on 12/30/03
------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------

The post below was written by the same person who wrote the original post, and it seems he makes some good points:

"The ref from Micah six using "offer up your first-born" refers specifically to Jesus.   The Prophets say clearly that the blood sacrifices are worthless if you continue in your sin. Therefore, the blood of Jesus is clearly worthless to those who continue in their sin.  Clear? It's practically flashed in our eyes and shouted in our ears.  And XXX, you can keep on singing that same tired song about grace.......but we are saved by grace through faith according to my Bible.  And faith without works is dead, according to my Bible.  So.....people who knowingly and stubbornly support works of evil (like the current Bush war crimes, for example, or the ongoing pillaging of third world countries by the rich nations, for example) have nothing but..... Dead......Faith..... LIVE faith being the key component in "saved by grace through faith."  And Dead Faith cannot work with grace to save ANYONE. Obviously, people like ***** love your message of ease because it allows them to hold that illusion that they are "saved."  Do you really want to help them hold that illusion?  Popular notion.  And Wrong."

Looking forward to your wisdom! Blessings to you all!

------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------

Hello Mickey!

Actually, this writer does make one good point:

<<< The Prophets say clearly that the blood sacrifices are worthless if you continue in your sin. Therefore, the blood of Jesus is clearly worthless to those who continue in their sin. >>>

Yes, yes, the blood sacrifices WERE worthless because the people did in fact CONTINUE in sin; the blood of Jesus would LIKEWISE be worthless if those he delivered continued in sin.  Of course, this is EXACTLY where we begin to get introspective and start judging the new creation in Christ according to the damned perspective and upon the same basis of the old.  In doing so, we only become as confused as Israel ever was as to what it meant to continue in sin, for all they ever understood was the breaking of commands and the continuing need to have them not be held against them.

Israel's problem ultimately wasn't their breaking of laws (i.e. transgressions), it was the simple reality that their existence was SUBJECT to the elemental world upon which those laws were founded.  Of course they would break any laws handed down to them, for they were doomed to fail.  The blood sacrifices only REMINDED them of their desperately incurable condition, and even though such sacrifices declared forgiveness for sins it only served to convince them that REAL forgiveness was just a facade. 

The fact that sacrifices were a regularly scheduled part of their existence only reinforced the reality that their lives were also scheduled to be lived in an ongoing sin cycle.  As a matter of fact, the addition of laws and requirements only caused their sinning to increase exponentially.  An effective sacrifice would not only pardon them of their past offenses, it would remove them from their former subjection, by which they had been made effective servants of sin.  Realize that while the law may have stimulated sin, it was not the cause of their subjection to it.  Their subjection to sin was inherited from Adam's sin, for they, as the rest of the world, were born into a condition in which "choice" was primarily one's preferred method of bondage.

Now, if the sacrifice of Jesus was of the same kind as that of bulls and goats, then it would have left the beneficiaries in the exact same place, which is an existence that has been designed around sin.  And yet this is what makes the sacrifice (blood) of Christ something totally unique, for as Dave so well stated, it removed the offending party, that is, it destroyed that which was in subjection to the elements of this world.  It removed the sinner, and in doing so, it invalidated the law against him, which in turn destroyed the life that found its continuance in sin.

This is precisely why Paul presented his question to the Romans in such clear-cut terms: How SHALL we, who died to sin, continue in it any longer?  For those who have died to sin and made alive to God do not and can not continue in sin.  And it's not because those who are saved by Jesus might not get dragged through the sewer causing all around to judge the dirt, but because the real person we have been made in Christ has not been left in subjection to the elemental world, as was Israel, regardless of how many sacrifices had been made on their behalf. 

Our righteousness in Christ can not be compared to the righteousness of the law, for the righteousness of the law - and its sacrifices - was only a facade.  The declarations of forgiveness and righteousness under the law were ONLY legal declarations, while the forgiveness and righteousness of Christ, being testified to by the law and the prophets, is REAL.  Isn't it ironic how many grace teachers have stood upon a righteousness in Christ that is only a legal declaration?

The fact that so many find it plausible to suggest that those in Christ, those who have died to sin in him, can still continue in sin only highlights how influenced we have become by elemental judgments ... those which are based upon that which can be held up to standards so that one is found in violation.  In other words, LAW.

<<< The ref from Micah six using "offer up your first-born" refers specifically to Jesus. >>>

"With what shall I come to the LORD and bow myself before the God on high? Shall I come to Him with burnt offerings, with yearling calves?  Does the LORD take delight in thousands of rams, in ten thousand rivers of oil?  Shall I present my firstborn for my rebellious acts, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?"  (Micah 6:6-7)

Geez, read the passage and it should be more obvious that Micah began asking questions in view of the "thus saith the Lord" declarations in verses 1-5.  No doubt there could easily be an allusion to Jesus' death in the statement, but in context Micah is rhetorically debating the effectiveness. or rather, the ineffectiveness, of many and diverse sacrifices for sin, including his own firstborn son.  He went on to demand that the very heart of God toward his people had to do with reality as opposed to form.

Never forget this very revealing passage from somewhere in Jimicaia: 
"If thou searchest for sin with thy whole heart thou shalt surely find it, even in that place where thy God hast removed it as far as the east is from the west; for in all thy searching, if thou shalt take up the scattered fragments of the tablets that were destroyed in that place of eternal destruction, and thou useth the glue of contention to piece it back together, then thou shalt severely criticize thyself and thy brethren in any matter that seemeth good and right in thine eyes that have been freshly renewed by the dust of thy condemnation."





7/7/10

Intensely wonderful! Full of insight and truth findings!  Jim said:


"This is precisely why Paul presented his question to the Romans in such clear-cut terms: How SHALL we, who died to sin, continue in it any longer?"

Ok yeah for me it was always the compounded confusion every time I would read the last part of that question from Paul's Romans writing. "..continue in it any longer"? It to me was like a question to me asking me if I would CHOOSE to do it any longer since Paul presented me some facts! It was like him saying "are you ready to tough it out for Jesus? Well you SHOULD." It was him presenting a decision to make. Yet now I see the confidence and life being conveyed again here. He is presenting an impossibility. Again dealing in absolutes.

This is wonderful news Jim.


Oh and the "scripture" reference from 

Jimicaia was very funny! You can be incredibly witty my brother! You really can!

Adam

"



Edited by luvin on Jul-07-10 at 11:40pm


      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
Back to Top
 
luvin
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: May-20-02
Location: United States
Posts: 5235
Posted: Jul-08-10 at 8:55am | IP Logged  

7/7/10

Intensely wonderful! Full of insight and truth findings!  Jim said:


"This is precisely why Paul presented his question to the Romans in such clear-cut terms: How SHALL we, who died to sin, continue in it any longer?"

Ok yeah for me it was always the compounded confusion every time I would read the last part of that question from Paul's Romans writing. "..continue in it any longer"? It to me was like a question to me asking me if I would CHOOSE to do it any longer since Paul presented me some facts! It was like him saying "are you ready to tough it out for Jesus? Well you SHOULD." It was him presenting a decision to make. Yet now I see the confidence and life being conveyed again here. He is presenting an impossibility. Again dealing in absolutes.

This is wonderful news Jim.


Oh and the "scripture" reference from 

Jimicaia was very funny! You can be incredibly witty my brother! You really can!


      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
Back to Top
 
the shovel
Shackmeister
Shackmeister


Joined: Oct-01-01
Location: United States
Posts: 4187
Posted: Jul-08-10 at 2:43pm | IP Logged  

Yeah, I got a kick out my Jimicaia bits! I mean, I am one of the funniest people I know! :)

I love recognizing the confidence being declared in Paul's statement, How SHALL we, who died to sin, continue in it any longer. Thanks for dusting this one off and bringing it up again. :)

Jim


      

DIGGIN'THE LIFE!
Back to Top
 

 



the shovel home page