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The Stuff of Grace
 Shovel Shack : The Stuff of Grace
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mary
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Posted: Apr-23-07 at 6:16pm | IP Logged  

Joyce wrote:

Patio?  Cigarette?  What cigarette? 

 

This is all a really good discussion to me.  I am thankful for Mike bringing up these issues because this seems to be the area where I can get into a certain mindset, but at the same time remember that it seems to be in conflict with what I feel I am learning about the "it is finished" reality.   Things will come up in my life where I will think or act a certain way, then have consequences or things said to me, or realize certain things where I think that it happened for the purpose of me "learning" from it that God is "growing me up" in that area of a certain behaviour that would be what He would want for me and also for my benefit in this world to follow because of it being the more of the right way to be. 

The problem is (and thankful for Adam, the Daves, etc. input as well), it doesn't seem like it can jive with the new mindset of my new identity.  So if that isn't me, is God still working on the old things in order to bring them more into line with the 'right and wrong' issues of life?  Or am I to ignore those things that seem at the time to be God's working in my life with regard to those issues?   It seems that there are benefits to certain ways of thinking and acting that help us to have better consequences in this life.  But is it actually God's judgement on the issue and his working things out of us, or is it maybe more just wisdom for living?...  and are we even being "taught by God" wisdom for living? 

Marissa



       Hiya sister Joyce,

                   I don't even see God as bringing us more into the "right" and "wrong" issues of life. Who is to ever say that the issues you struggle with are "right" or "wrong" .  Who is to ever make a judgement about that and say that God is "growing you" up in anything.  (I refer you to "Walking the Dogma" front page that Jim has posted in the links page.)  It really irritates me when people make these comments about what "God is doing".  Who isn't to say that what He's done, IS done, and we are merely coming out of the shadows into what that REALLY IS.

                     Don't have any more time to type, as McDave is wanting to chat, but just wanted to type these few things.

                      Love, Mary

               


      

Mary
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Joyce
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Posted: Apr-24-07 at 8:18am | IP Logged  

Mary,  

Thanks for your response.  What you said about 'who says that He is 'growing us up' is of especial interest to me because that is what has been said all this time to me.  But again my question is.... WHO are we trying to "grow"?   The New Creation that we are now?  .... or the old, sinful, dead thing that seems to need a lot of improvement in about every area?  And what is God actually seeing when He looks down from the master cloud in the sky?     Is He seeing something that needs to be improved? 

I remember feeling really confuse at one point in my ic experience when I heard something about how God sees us through Christ and sees only Christ when He looks at us.  It seemed like a dichotomy of thought that I couldn't reconcile that with their having me confess my sins everyday and the "try to do better" mandate. 

Guess it begs the question as well.... what are we really here for?  I was told it was to become more like Christ and there are verses to back that up.  But then WE are the actual corporate Body of Him.  There is no other Body of Christ than us.... despite the wafers given out in a ritual that proclaim that it is wheat mashed into a tasteless disc. 

And if we are here just to come into the reality in our minds of Who we are and all that goes along with that.... In the natural, it makes God look like a failure, as the vast majority seem to still be in the law mentality. 

Marissa   

 



Edited by Joyce on Apr-24-07 at 8:25am
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Tim P
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Marissa,

Your questions are excellent.  I wonder if growing in Christ is looking more on the outside like who we really are on the inside.  So, we love our enemies, for example, because He is actually free to do this through us.

Tim

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mary
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   Hi Joyce,

        I know what you mean.  It seems like there are so many different aspects of "what" this new life within us is that they could be easily "presented" in such a way as to bring more clarity.  (Ironically, the post above brought some clarity to McDave yesterday.   Funny how something said can to one person can bring some clarity to another  )   New creation, Christ as our Life, until Christ be formed in you, all true, but desiring an explanation like you say.

         I can't help but sense that all of these things have a "bearing" on what is becoming real for us today, or that these truths as they became revealed to our spirits at one time, or another, quickens Life to us and we know despite all of the "outward" appearances (old, dead things) that these things are true.  Our rational minds can't wrap around it, but our spirits have grasped it and know. 
         
          As far as the way God sees us, I can only say that the most beautiful thing that He has revealed to my Spirit is that we are innocent, and that Christ's death on the cross, His performance and His alone secured that for me once and for all time.  There is a connectedness to Him can never be seperated.  A peace in knowing how He really "feels" about me.  (and there ARE verses that bring that truth alive)

          "Becoming more like Christ" who could ever do it?   All that does is puts the pressure on us to perform what we could never do, and create a self-righteous boasting within us.  He did what He did best, and with His Life within us, what looks like Christ, will certainly be Christ.

          Since the old can't be improved upon,  Christ took the old man, put Him on the cross, and crucified Him for good.  Jim says that nothing of old goes into the new.
 
          I'm not sure if this makes any sense,but it's really all I have to share now.  Your questions certainly provoke more conversation, and hopefully this will spur others on share as well.

          Love, Mary



      

Mary
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mary
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Posted: Apr-24-07 at 10:26am | IP Logged  


   Tim,

     I think we are "seeing" things the same way!


      

Mary
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Chickenlips
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Posted: Apr-24-07 at 4:57pm | IP Logged  

Amen Tim.  Christ DOES affect the way we think, feel, and act, and even if He is not affecting those things in the moment in a way I can see, He frees us to not take the ways we think, feel and act so dad-blamed seriously!  We are free indeed. 

      

Mike

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mary
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Posted: Apr-24-07 at 7:11pm | IP Logged  

 

     ,   .......so dad-blamed seriously.  Got me laughing on that one, Mike! 




      

Mary
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Chickenlips
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Posted: Apr-28-07 at 8:06am | IP Logged  

Glad I could give you a laugh. 

      

Mike

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Joyce
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Posted: Apr-28-07 at 12:05pm | IP Logged  

Was re-reading some things on this thread and the thought ocurred to me.... could the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil" have also been appropriately called the "Tree of Law"?  But then it seems the first law was before that from God when He told them not to eat of it.... that being the law that were given to live under even before eating from the tree.   Any thoughts?

Joyce



Edited by Joyce on Apr-28-07 at 12:09pm
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luvin
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Posted: Apr-28-07 at 12:51pm | IP Logged  

all kinds a law eh!??

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

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Joyce
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Thanks Adam for the response.  Not sure what it means, but I have gotten back with a friend who doesn't believe a lot of what I have/do hold to be true.  That might be especially true of the creation story.  There seems to be things I don't understand and never am able to come up with answers with which I feel comfortable.  I am questioning the accuracy of a story that far back, yet there are other times that I think it is ingenious how it is an example of deeper concepts.  In the past at many points along the way of my life, I would think I pretty much "had the truth" and was so thankful that God had put me in a time and place and among certain people where I was blessed with that.... only to have a newer understanding surface and realize that what I thought I was so blessed in actually wasn't.  Sometimes I wonder if I'm being prepared to move on to another way of thinking in certain areas, or at least a greater acceptance of where others may be coming from in those areas.  That has always been my life.  It seems there's always more to comprehend.... more to realize.

Marissa



Edited by Joyce on Apr-29-07 at 9:13am
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Rest and Trust
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Joyce wrote:

Was re-reading some things on this thread and the thought ocurred to me.... could the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil" have also been appropriately called the "Tree of Law"?  But then it seems the first law was before that from God when He told them not to eat of it.... that being the law that were given to live under even before eating from the tree.   Any thoughts?

Joyce

My impression at this point in my experience, Joyce- is that the Knowledge of Good and Evil tree was simply living from self. Living from ones own sense of what is right and wrong. That type of right and wrong comes down to us through many avenues- traditions of men, traditions of men that originated in/by satanic promotion and perpetuation, deviant (mental/emotional/physical) instinct or deviant fleshly (deviated because of the entrance of death) cravings. etc.. The law was given to reveal to mankind a perfect right and wrong and therefore the perfect way to live from self. By mankind not being able to live from self perfectly even with a perfect set of right and wrongs to operate from it was proven to mankind that the good and evil knowledge tree was the bogus tree to live from. Living from self will alway be bogus. The beauty, to me, of this being revealed to mankind is that it points to the tree of Life that abides in us that we can live from.

My 2 or 3 cents. 

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mary
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  That was great stuff, R & T!


      

Mary
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Chickenlips
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Amen Rest & Trust!  I could not AGREE more!  And that is not my own self judging that -- the spirit in Me is leaping for joy! 

 

 



      

Mike

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Joyce
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Mary and Mike.... very much agree with your accessment of Joe's post.

To be honest, I didn't really quite ask the question that I meant to ask, and Joe didn't really quite answer in the vein that I was thinking, but the Spirit of God can transend all of that. 

Thanks, Joe. 

Makes me think that there is only One who is righteous, and we have been included in that.  Not by our human reasoning or effort, but by inclusion.

Marissa



Edited by Joyce on May-01-07 at 12:23pm
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BobB
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Joyce wrote:

Was re-reading some things on this thread and the thought ocurred to me.... could the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil" have also been appropriately called the "Tree of Law"?  But then it seems the first law was before that from God when He told them not to eat of it.... that being the law that were given to live under even before eating from the tree.   Any thoughts?

Joyce

Yes. We've broken all the rules and great is our redeemer who delivers us from the guilt of such burden. Without the knowledge of this Law, there is no understanding of freedom or deliverance. Hence no completion, which is Christ, the perfection of man. I tend to think of parenthood in the garden story. Call it rites of passage or whatever. Christ was offered the same tree in the wilderness.

 You may warn your child to save them the unessessary shock and fright of burning themselves or climbing to high up a wall only to come crashing. It's easy to overlook the love of God in the garden story, so it could appear confusing, suspicious and even sinister, at best.

 

 



      

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Joyce
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Thanks Bob,

It seems that the way the different aspects of the Body "see" things at various times always serves to show that there is always more depth to see, and confirms that in the end of it all that God is indeed Love.

Marissa 

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Chickenlips
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Posted: May-16-07 at 1:30pm | IP Logged  

Chickenlips wrote:
Joyce wrote:

Mike, thanks for your response. 

For some reason when it comes to the Adam/fall/Cross thing, I get the feeling that I can't get all of the dots connected. I get mixed up with the understandings of different people.  Not sure I understand why the whole thing happened in the first place when everything seemed fine and there wasn't a problem in the garden to remedy before that. I mean, this whole thing is the main base thing of it all and I don't "get it".  It's all higher than my thinking ways.  I know all things work for the glory of God, so maybe that's it.  

Joyce

 

I think God was addressing a bigger problem than just with the earth.  Consider Satan's fall and put it in this context and I think we begin to get an idea of God's purpose for life and for the earth.  It is not about our comfort and happiness.  It is about the glory and grace of God -- a divine statement if you will for all eternity -- to all created beings, not just humans.

I'll write more as I can.  No time now.

Shalom

Mike

Okay, I made a promise here that i am finally get back to.  I didn't forget, Joyce. 

I think one of the greatest deceptions of identity truth is the way it gets us all focused in more on self rather than Christ.  Don't get me wrong, because I spend a LOT of time everyday working with people to understand who they are in Christ.  BUt we HAVE to move beyond that if we ever want to see the greater things in the kingdom of God.  To some degree I see this in scripture when Christ emptied Himself and was willing to be human.  He knew who He was, but the Father was so much more important.  I was in Wisconsin yesterday and Tony (from here on the shack) and I were having breakfast.  He said something that really applies to this. 

Jesus could have lived the life, and didn't.  He let the Father live through Him. 
We could never live the life, but we keep trying anyway.
 

The whole purpose of life becomes self defeating if it is all about us, making us feel better, giving us identity, whatever.  BUt the Father's heart was that the Lord Jesus Christ be made evident and be lifted up in ALL things.  The entire scripture is written with that in mind.  But that is also the Fathers whole point in creation -- that Jesus would be evident, manifested, lifted up, glorified.  The Father is all about Jesus, and Jesus is all about the Father.

"It is by Him, and for Him and through Him that ALL things are created."

"This is my beloved Son, in whom I am WELL pleased."

The proud Father is lifting His Son up to all created beings in heaven and on earth to say, "I am PROUD of Him."  The problem with man before the fall was that the eternal purpose of the Father was not understood.  The whole creation thing was not about anyone's comfort or happiness.  God's big picture purpose was not revealed until AFTER the fall, only after the fall do we begin to get a picture of the Love of God, His mercy, compassion, and grace.  Before the fall, there was really no need or opportunity for all created beings to understand the depth of the love of the Father or the Son, nor did we have any understanding of how much they truly and perfectly love each other. 

The cross is the perfect picture of that pure love, and that picture was painted for all created beings in heaven, earth, and hell.  It is God saying to all, "Do you see who I AM?"

 



      

Mike

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luvin
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Mike some neat thoughts bro.

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

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Joyce
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Yes, Mike, thanks for the response.  (Wow, you have a good memory.) 

I had also read something recently with regard to the fact that there was really no outlet (so to speak) for the Love of God to come forth, since there was no need for it.  It almost seems then like He created the need in order to fill that need.  That is His call, as I think you are saying.  

With regard to identity.... not sure if I was understanding your jist, but it seems if we are coming around to the fact that our identity IS Christ, then that does put the focus on Him; but guess man can somehow have it be more on himself in the midst of it, if that is his intent. 

I guess I have been thinking lately more in terms of my not being Christ, but a part of Him in the body.  That seems to emphasize how it is that we "all" are apart of Him... and His being the Head of it all.  Right now there seems to be a theme coming at me of the importance of the "corporate Christ".... something that has been twisted by institutionalism with their formality, heirarchy and control.  On the other hand, even for those who are in that setting, there can be no denial or stopping at times of the true function of the Body... as He within cannot help but exude out.  It's a real mixture there.

Joyce

 



Edited by Joyce on May-17-07 at 10:47am
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Chickenlips
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Joyce,

EXCELLENT revelations from the Lord!  I recognize what you are saying and my heart is singing.  I LOVE it!

This is particularily profound

Quote:
With regard to identity.... not sure if I was understanding your jist, but it seems if we are coming around to the fact that our identity IS Christ, then that does put the focus on Him; but guess man can somehow have it be more on himself in the midst of it, if that is his intent. 
  and that is EXACTLY what I am saying!  The tendency is to somehow still want to have something to make me feel better about myself.  But Christ killed us on the Cross -- and it is all put to death in Him.  He did not come to fix us or make us feel better He came to kill us and resurect us with a NEW life, a God centered life, a holy and righteous life.  We are dead, and are now hidden with Christ in God! (Col 3:3)

 



      

Mike

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luvin
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i THINK ITS SEMANTICS mIKE.wHEN WE HEAR THINGS LIKE "gOD CENTERED"...AS IN "gOD CENTERED RELATIONSHIPS" OUR MINDS ARE RECOGNIZING THE SAME LEGALISTIC PATTERN YOU ARE TRYING TO REPEL.fUNNY HUH?

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

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Chickenlips
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Isn't it intersting how the old dead flesh patterns still try to take control of us, so we can attemopt to breathe life into them?  Of course that is like giving mouth to mouth to a rotting corpse.  It is an exercise in futility, because there can never be life there.  It is dead at the cross of Christ.

What you wrote is the essence of what I posted yesterday in Isaacs thread.  Satan & the flesh are always trying to get us focused in on God's words and not His heart.  Likewise, the same thing with each other.  We jump on each others words before we seek each others hearts.  Then we end up arguing about words and miss the whole point.  I face that challenge daily because most of the people I work with have never heard teaching like ours.  Part of the journey for me is to take people's words of death and lead them to discover life, so to speak.  But it is only Christ in us that can cut through the crap.  But the freedom for me has come through Christ revealing Himself through all things, even that which is legalistic.  I actually find more truth through legalistic teachings many times than I do through a lot of grace teaching.  So much grace teaching is just all about making me feel better.  I was recently in a church that was like that -- and believe it or not, the service was pretty much dead.  However, legalistic teaching is repelled by Christ in me, and He reveals the truth by contrast.  That has really freed me because I no longer have to be writing little tickets to those whose teachings don't match my beliefs.  I know that Christ is being revealed in ALL things, and it is only HE who can open my ears, or anyone elses.  What freedom to know I am not responsible to make sure everyone is getting it right.

I did a teen seminar 2 weeks ago, and the kids were REALLY challenged.  But because of the defintions of words thay have been given, they really struggled to understand what I was saying at time.  Even at 15 - 18 yrs old, the flesh patterns go deep.  However, the as the spirit of God moved, they heard with their hearts and not their heads.  So much so that nearly every teen could not get enough... they were excited about the message, and could not wait to come back the next weekend to the adult seminar.  In fact, the teens out numbered the adults... by quite a bit. 

I think we basically find what we are looking for.  If we are looking for law, we find it (which leads us to Christ). If we are looking for Christ, we find Him. God wins either way.  To me, that is both a rule, and a habit!



      

Mike

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realrestisbest
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[QUOTE=Chickenlips]

Isn't it intersting how the old dead flesh patterns still try to take control of us, so we can attemopt to breathe life into them?  Of course that is like giving mouth to mouth to a rotting corpse.  It is an exercise in futility, because there can never be life there.  It is dead at the cross of Christ.

What you wrote is the essence of what I posted yesterday in Isaacs thread.  Satan & the flesh are always trying to get us focused in on God's words and not His heart.  Likewise, the same thing with each other.  We jump on each others words before we seek each others hearts.  Then we end up arguing about words and miss the whole point.  I face that challenge daily because most of the people I work with have never heard teaching like ours.  Part of the journey for me is to take people's words of death and lead them to discover life, so to speak.  But it is only Christ in us that can cut through the crap.  But the freedom for me has come through Christ revealing Himself through all things, even that which is legalistic.  I actually find more truth through legalistic teachings many times than I do through a lot of grace teaching.  So much grace teaching is just all about making me feel better.  I was recently in a church that was like that -- and believe it or not, the service was pretty much dead.  However, legalistic teaching is repelled by Christ in me, and He reveals the truth by contrast.  That has really freed me because I no longer have to be writing little tickets to those whose teachings don't match my beliefs.  I know that Christ is being revealed in ALL things, and it is only HE who can open my ears, or anyone elses.  What freedom to know I am not responsible to make sure everyone is getting it right.

I did a teen seminar 2 weeks ago, and the kids were REALLY challenged.  But because of the defintions of words thay have been given, they really struggled to understand what I was saying at time.  Even at 15 - 18 yrs old, the flesh patterns go deep.  However, the as the spirit of God moved, they heard with their hearts and not their heads.  So much so that nearly every teen could not get enough... they were excited about the message, and could not wait to come back the next weekend to the adult seminar.  In fact, the teens out numbered the adults... by quite a bit. 


I think we basically find what we are looking for.  If we are looking for law, we find it (which leads us to Christ). If we are looking for Christ, we find Him. God wins either way.  To me, that is both a rule, and a habit!

Wow, that's some really profound truth.  It's nice to see LIFE in everything. 

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luvin
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Back in the day Jim said:

Regarding "Habits":
"
I guess the point in all this is to wonder why we
often seem to categorize a habit in terms of evil
rather than just being what it is: something
repeated on some level of consistency. That we might
judge ourselves or others according to the presence
of a habit only reveals the insistence of the mind
of the world that we must do so. It's just another
way to demand that we are not really free."-Jim

I am NOW noticing the lack of 'sin consciousness' in
this/his response. For if sin WAS removed in Christ,
why are we still counting it? Not only counting it
but, rather seeking it out to take IT into account.
I know many of us learned this to be preemptive but,
in Christ is this not TRUE sin? For the WORLD is
what and who seeks after sin and sins and
sinning..to take it into account.




      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

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mary
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   Adam, I didn't have time to say this yesterday, because distractions were pulling me away from the 'puter, but I LOVE this, AGAIN!   I love how you've tied the two thoughts together, so unique to you!   I had not seen this before " Categorizing a habit in terms of evil rather than JUST BEING WHAT IT IS: SOMETHING REPEATED ON SOME LEVEL OF CONSISTENCY."

   I absolutely LOVE how JIM has taken this out of the WHOLE realm of SUPER-SPIRITUALITY: self-righteous, shame, and condemnation, and measurement and how you tied the truth of the finished work of Christ into it!

    Yesterday, I got 'hit' with a baggage load of "it", the truth being that to those who are influenced by religious perceptions, there really is no relief, no freedom.  

  


      

Mary
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