Surfing on life banner
The ShovelShack Archives
Between January 2002 and December 2011, almost 46,000 posts were created by members of the Shovel Shack discussion group.
In 2012, the Shovel Shack moved to a new home: shovelshack.org. Shovelshack.net will be kept intact as an archive for those amazing discussions.

Browse a bit and then join us at ShovelShack.org

Real Life in Christ
 Shovel Shack : Real Life in Christ
Subject Topic: Not peace, but a sword.
Author
Message << Prev Topic | Next Topic >>
luvin
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: May-20-02
Location: United States
Posts: 5235
Posted: Jun-26-11 at 2:18pm | IP Logged  

"..it seems sad to me that you would think the
miracles of God only and simply cry out 'reward for
me, me, me'. :(   that seems like a rather small
regard for the eternal vastness of God and His
nature and work/works-"Dignz

Just chiming in a bit on something Dignz observed in
Robs writings here:

I am thinking
that the ole 'more of Him and less of me' thing we
do, is really just filthy rags once again.[ I know,
it SOUNDS like blasphemy huh?] The thing you have to
ignore
in TRYING to get yourself 'out of the way' is that
YOU do it. It throws out the door the very living
spirit of God doing HIS thing in us...in a
miraculous way. Not only this but, look at what you
have to disregard of Gods work in saving us,
redeeming us and making us perfect children who DO
walk upright. You have to trash that whole reality
and simply deny our worth to God.

Edited by luvin on Jun-26-11 at 2:23pm


      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
Back to Top
 
the shovel
Shackmeister
Shackmeister


Joined: Oct-01-01
Location: United States
Posts: 4187
Posted: Jun-26-11 at 2:22pm | IP Logged  

goof wrote:
Well; as you must have noticed by now, I have this unfortunate habit to look for anything that can increase the Lord's welfare (I feel like such a viper when I hear myself say that.)
Anyway, if this was to be the ultimate goal in religion, as I believe it to be, then, things like "you have perseverance and have endured for My name’s sake, and have not grown weary"; things like that would be a good starting point to understand what overcoming means.


Rob, from what I've noticed, I don't see evidence of you increasing the LORD's welfare, but merely that of a religious nature. It's not the same. There is true life in the risen Christ, not in the religious version of him and his sayings. My desire for you is that you come to see past the old man, that old codger, and to truly see the living Christ in you.

Jim


      

DIGGIN'THE LIFE!
Back to Top
 
goof
Digger
Digger


Joined: Jun-19-11
Posts: 22
Posted: Jun-26-11 at 2:32pm | IP Logged  

luvin wrote:
It throws out the door the very living
spirit of God doing HIS thing in us...in a
miraculous way.

That also is in contradiction with the very own words of the Lord, namely:
"For the things concerning Me have an end."



      

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:23
Back to Top
 
goof
Digger
Digger


Joined: Jun-19-11
Posts: 22
Posted: Jun-26-11 at 2:43pm | IP Logged  

the shovel wrote:

My desire for you is that you come to see past the old man, that old codger, and to truly see the living Christ in you.Jim

Christ is "the young man."
The Father is "the Old Codger."


This is what bothers me a little.
This essential universal concept (Christ in me and me in Christ,) is a very dear concept to the gnostics.
We find it a lot (a lot) in Paul & only once in Peter.
Now, the concept is interesting, for it has some universal determinateness; but it has to be taken a bit further. Like in: "What kind of Spirit?"
The Spirit of Christ? - the Spirit of the Father? or the Spirit Itself (finite spirit, infinite Spirit?).
What I am saying, is that what you are saying has the limitation of a predicate. Like in "God is Love." Sure He is Love; but what is this Love in relation to God?
Because, "God is Love" is kind of what the Hindus, the Muslims and eveyrone says, as a matter of fact!
Why not try to put some content into Love and some substance into the "Spirit of God that does HIS thing in us...in a miraculous way."
How far as His things are concerned, I restate what as said before, namely that they are His, not ours.



Edited by goof on Jun-26-11 at 3:36pm


      

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:23
Back to Top
 
luvin
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: May-20-02
Location: United States
Posts: 5235
Posted: Jun-26-11 at 5:59pm | IP Logged  

goof wrote:
luvin wrote:
It throws out the door
the very living
spirit of God doing HIS thing in us...in a
miraculous way.

That also is in contradiction with the very own
words of the Lord, namely:
"For the things concerning Me have an end."



I do not recognize your quotation. Were is that
from?[seems rather random] I also see no
contradiction, unless of course one wrangles over
words. For the beginning and the end of the fleshly
mind is futility.

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
Back to Top
 
the shovel
Shackmeister
Shackmeister


Joined: Oct-01-01
Location: United States
Posts: 4187
Posted: Jun-27-11 at 3:37am | IP Logged  

goof wrote:

Christ is "the young man."
The Father is "the Old Codger."



I knew what you meant, and that's why I wrote what I did. Your fears make you keep God at a distance where he is safer.

goof wrote:

This is what bothers me a little.
This essential universal concept (Christ in me and me in Christ,) is a very dear concept to the gnostics.
We find it a lot (a lot) in Paul & only once in Peter.


What about from the Lord himself? You must have read Jesus' words in John 15-17 sometime in your life. How many times do you think Peter would have to say it before he really meant it? Do you suppose if he had written as many letters as Paul that we may have had more references from him?

goof wrote:

Now, the concept is interesting, for it has some universal determinateness; but it has to be taken a bit further. Like in: "What kind of Spirit?"
The Spirit of Christ? - the Spirit of the Father? or the Spirit Itself (finite spirit, infinite Spirit?).
What I am saying, is that what you are saying has the limitation of a predicate. Like in "God is Love." Sure He is Love; but what is this Love in relation to God?
Because, "God is Love" is kind of what the Hindus, the Muslims and eveyrone says, as a matter of fact!
Why not try to put some content into Love and some substance into the "Spirit of God that does HIS thing in us...in a miraculous way."
How far as His things are concerned, I restate what as said before, namely that they are His, not ours.


There is much fear in what you've written here. Should we question the existence of God himself because of how many religions refer to a supreme being?

Jim


      

DIGGIN'THE LIFE!
Back to Top
 
luvin
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: May-20-02
Location: United States
Posts: 5235
Posted: Jun-28-11 at 2:20pm | IP Logged  

goof wrote:

Christ is "the young man."
The Father is "the Old Codger."



I knew what you meant, and that's why I wrote what I
did. Your fears make you keep God at a distance
where he is safer.-Jim


I certainly know what it is to do this too Jim. It
is the message of the law/fleshly mind that creates
this sense of distance. I hear the incredible
encouraging reality in this.

Adam

Edited by luvin on Jun-28-11 at 3:08pm


      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
Back to Top
 
Broken Link
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: Mar-11-02
Location: United States
Posts: 2513
Posted: Jul-02-11 at 10:45pm | IP Logged  

the shovel wrote:

Should we question the existence of God himself
because of how many religions refer to a supreme
being?

True. Just how finely can we split the hairs of our
definitions to where they no longer mean what others
are communicating, but only what I am saying?!



      

Bill
theHarryTick™
heretic - n 1: a person who holds beliefs in conflict with the dogma of the church.
Back to Top
 
the shovel
Shackmeister
Shackmeister


Joined: Oct-01-01
Location: United States
Posts: 4187
Posted: Jul-03-11 at 8:07am | IP Logged  

Broken Link wrote:
the shovel wrote:
Should we question the existence of God himself because of how many religions refer to a supreme being?

True. Just how finely can we split the hairs of our definitions to where they no longer mean what others are communicating, but only what I am saying?!



Hello my dear friend! :) It's always good to see you post.

I suspect most hair-splitting arguments arise out of flesh-bound intellect. Now I may hold definitions to be very important, but like you suggest, are we pursuing our finely-tuned definitions in order to hinder communication rather than furthering it? Because of this sort of reasoning, I remember my Bible college years not only as a time of much learning and confidence, but also as a time of increased confusion and fear. I slowly defined and redefined the world around me in such a way as to create a bubble of safety. Rather than recognizing the overwhelming testimony of God all around me, I began to fear all the stuff that didn't fit within my growing — or should I say, shrinking — perception.

What I mean is that I was trying so hard to disprove all other viewpoints that the sheer number of dissenting voices slowly began to overwhelm me. The only place I found any sense of security was at the Bible college or one of the satellite ministries. From my perspective, where was God other than in those places? All I can say is that I thank God for having pulled back the blinders so that I could see him everywhere. Even the dissenting voices began to add to that which is undeniable.

Why are the nations in an uproar, And the peoples devising a vain thing? The kings of the earth take their stand, And the rulers take counsel together Against the LORD and against His Anointed:  (Psalms 2:1-2)

Once I began to see past all the contradictions to God and his anointed, Christ, I also began to wonder along with David: Why — behind all the arguments and propaganda and differing religious viewpoints and doctrines — are so many so dead-set against that he who has become my life? They say, Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain! Even the religious people of the world say the same thing regarding the reality of Christ in us. Why are they in such an uproar, eh? :)

Jim


      

DIGGIN'THE LIFE!
Back to Top
 
luvin
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: May-20-02
Location: United States
Posts: 5235
Posted: Jul-03-11 at 9:25am | IP Logged  

" From my perspective, where was God other than in
those places? All I can say is that I thank God for
having pulled back the blinders so that I could see
him everywhere. Even the dissenting voices began to
add to that which is undeniable." -Jim Minker


Boy can I remember this scenario well. I used to
phrase it as : "I just SENSE God here more, that's
all". Or : "I just PREFER this kind of
church...denom..etc..".


Yeah even WITH all the outward reasons I was taught
to put out there for why I sensed God in this thing
or that, I was still experiencing that unusual
showing of the Reality behind it all. The Reality
always boiled down to that which is real and
complete in Christ and not all the outward
suggestions I was learning to grab hold of. Who
could blame us though? We had only that
understanding at the time. An outward understanding.

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
Back to Top
 
Broken Link
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: Mar-11-02
Location: United States
Posts: 2513
Posted: Jul-18-11 at 11:34am | IP Logged  

Jim,



      

Bill
theHarryTick™
heretic - n 1: a person who holds beliefs in conflict with the dogma of the church.
Back to Top
 
csnarnia
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: May-25-05
Location: United States
Posts: 189
Posted: Aug-14-11 at 11:50am | IP Logged  

Didn't I read somewhere that our lives are hidden in
Christ...like we are his treasure that he hides and
protects....

      

"We are not on the road to success...we are on the success road." Coach Frosty Westering
Back to Top
 
csnarnia
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: May-25-05
Location: United States
Posts: 189
Posted: Aug-14-11 at 11:51am | IP Logged  

Or maybe I'm having one of those Bill moments where I
thought I remember a scripture.....

      

"We are not on the road to success...we are on the success road." Coach Frosty Westering
Back to Top
 
mcdave
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: Dec-25-01
Location: United States
Posts: 1809
Posted: Aug-14-11 at 12:22pm | IP Logged  

this might be it..in colossians 3  1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

      

     It's not works,it's coffee.
   

Back to Top
 
Guest
Guest
Guest


Joined: Oct-01-03
Posts: 36
Posted: Aug-17-11 at 9:42am | IP Logged  

mcdave wrote:
... Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.


Right mcdave, so right!

As for Colossians, let's add this:
"The Epistle to the Colossians has been subjected to a serious fire of objection among scholars, since 150 A.D.
It seems to approach in style the writings attributed to John.
The substance which is to be found in the Epistle to the Colossians is encountered, though less articulated, in the Apocalypse, and in the Epistle to the Hebrews."


When God determines Himself in the world, he posits His abstract Being.
This Being, once in existence, as flesh and blood, must at one point in time, integrate back, (or more precisely, in the forward movement of Becoming,) the abstract Being that posited Him in the first place; for Spirit is Being in and for Himself (... all things were created by him, and for him. - John 1:16).
God must lose His abstractness and have Himself back in Himself, as His own object.
To make it simpler, every idea must have it's counterpart in concreteness; then it must make it back to itself and, finally, have it as it's own object, ideally.

Indeed, most of the Truth holds in the fact that the Being of the Other (Son) is in the Being of the One (Father).("This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Matthew 3:17).
Moreover, the reflection (Essence) of the Father is not on the Son; but on the reflection that the Son has of the Father.

Most of the fallacy of our reasoning comes from, what you call rightly my friends, the "natural mind". Such are the misconceptions we get through pictorial thinking, or through the binary mind of nature (full of zero and one,) wich plunge us in the erroneous belief that negation is a mere opposition, when, indeed, it is, among other things, abstraction or unity. The same fallacy holds for appearance, that is considered as mere illusion, when it is, in fact, determinateness.
So on and so forth.

We must apprehend God through Thought.
There is much power in thought; which is the lively force of Spirit.
Indeed, all the Power rests in It; for God is Absolute Thought; the self-determining process and the source of all determinations; the constitutive substance of external things; the universal substance of what is spiritual.

"Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things." Colossians 3:2
This is the self-abrogation of the finite. It must be shown of Nature and Spirit that they, in accordance with their notion, abrogate or annul themselves. Here we have the movement of thought, which is the movement of true reality, and it is the very process of Nature and of Spirit, out of which proceeds the True.

http://spiritasdivinehistory.weebly.com/
(The three moments in the Life of Spirit)


But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in Spirit and in Truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:23


Edited by Guest on Aug-17-11 at 11:03am
Back to Top
 
the shovel
Shackmeister
Shackmeister


Joined: Oct-01-01
Location: United States
Posts: 4187
Posted: Aug-17-11 at 3:43pm | IP Logged  

Hello goof,

You might have convinced yourself that you can apprehend God through Thought (with a capital T), but that thought is still part of that which is earthly. You are ensnared by your own complicated reasonings, my friend. God is not far from you, but it is not through your reasoning that you find him.

Jim


      

DIGGIN'THE LIFE!
Back to Top
 
goof
Digger
Digger


Joined: Jun-19-11
Posts: 22
Posted: Aug-17-11 at 4:01pm | IP Logged  

Through what then, Jim? - Pure insight?

How are you doing?


Edited by goof on Aug-17-11 at 4:03pm


      

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:23
Back to Top
 
luvin
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: May-20-02
Location: United States
Posts: 5235
Posted: Aug-17-11 at 5:29pm | IP Logged  

Hello again "Goof".

Back again eh? I find it interesting that you asked
Jim the question but, more interesting what wording
you used. "Pure insight". Yes, PURE it is. For it is
a miracle of faith by which we are saved and this is
a gift of God. Whenever we hear the Truth of our
Father our spirit testifies to it and we rejoice
from within.[and that can look like all sorts of
things]This 'insight' just so you know, is humble
and draws no comparisons in and by the markers of
the flesh. For the thing that can be understood by
natural means, only eventually 'puffs up' as our
brother Paul testified to.

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
Back to Top
 
the shovel
Shackmeister
Shackmeister


Joined: Oct-01-01
Location: United States
Posts: 4187
Posted: Aug-17-11 at 6:45pm | IP Logged  

At that time Jesus said, "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from [the] wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight. All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal [Him.]"  (Matthew 11:25-27, NASB)

It is surely through faith, as Jesus did testify to many times.

Jim


      

DIGGIN'THE LIFE!
Back to Top
 
HarryTick
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Dec-07-05
Location: United States
Posts: 186
Posted: Aug-17-11 at 8:53pm | IP Logged  

csnarnia wrote:

Or maybe I'm having one of those Bill moments where I
thought I remember a scripture.....



      

Love,
Bill
theHarryTick™

heretic - n 1: a person who holds beliefs in conflict with the dogma of churches.
Back to Top
 
goof
Digger
Digger


Joined: Jun-19-11
Posts: 22
Posted: Aug-18-11 at 8:58am | IP Logged  

luvin wrote:
For it is a miracle of faith by which we are saved and this is a gift of God.


Yes indeed, Luvin (good to see you!) - Faith, through the teaching and training of the Spirit of God; as much as from grace.

Yet, there are two contents of Faith to be distinguished; namely, Rational Faith (using reason,) and Irrational Faith (using feeling.)

Please, read this short argument on faith vs. knowledge. Indee, they don't have to be antagonistic - Far from it!
http://pastehtml.com/view/b4a1pcuob.rtxt

See you!

Jim wrote:
"I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from [the] wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants.


Hey Jim!

You know how much I loooove when people quote Christ; and, in fact, this is one of my favorite saying of the Lord.
However, it cannot develop the breadth of its full meaning, unless it is associated with the following one, namely:
“Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 18:3, NASB)

As you might have noticed, and whatever translation of the Bible you are reffering to, there is this significant variation within the terms "infants" and "little children."

A "papoose" is an unconscious being. This is the parabolic way to tell us that, such is the power of Grace, that it is not our prerogative to acquire Grace through knowledge.
Yet, the ankle-biter grows to become a man, and passes through this wonderful stage of childhood. This period of time when contradictions are so easily resolved.
To make it quick, it is only when the things of this world, or more precisely when the consciousness of the power of the things of this world, gets in their way, that children are not children anymore.
In this particular saying of the Lord, the word "BECOME" is the key word.
We must, as man, be converted and become children once more. This pictorial thought is just what the development of Spirit is all about, as seen through pure thought; in other words, the dissolving of all contradictions.
I like to take the Law as an example; and particularly the one which derives from "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth;" namely the right to retaliate.
What Christ asked, in pure Spirit (who is the Spirit of reconciliation,) is that you give away that right, such as to elevate yourself above the sphere of justice and injustice.
This is how children resolve their disputes in the playground.
This is the gist of BECOMING, and the realm of Spirit.

Take care!



Edited by goof on Aug-18-11 at 10:02am


      

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:23
Back to Top
 
Broken Link
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: Mar-11-02
Location: United States
Posts: 2513
Posted: Aug-21-11 at 2:46am | IP Logged  

Broken Link wrote:

True. Just how finely can we split the hairs of our definitions to where they
no longer mean what others are communicating, but only what I am saying?!

goof,

The idea that we can attribute "rational" faith to one group and "irrational"
faith to another when any and all conclusions in the discussion are claimed
from faith is just this type of hair-splitting. Such a discourse is dishonest
in a passive-aggressive manner, for it is meant disguise what is truly being
said. It is the "nice" way of saying, "My faith is real and yours is not." It
also has a very Orwellian ring about it, "All animals have faith, but some
have more rational faith than others." It is the kind of thing you hear when
some try to put themselves on a plane above others.

Let me speak plainly in saying that I disagree with you. The claim that faith
is even in the same realm as reason, much less dependent upon it as a
quality, should be viewed as a slap in the Spirit's face, if such a thing
were possible. It is only through the Spirit's work that we are made aware
and that we have any understanding at all. If it is not so, then certainly we
must reason that God is not God, having a need for our intellect to help
reveal him, since he was not powerful enough to do it on his own. Or perhaps
it was his messenger who could not relay the message without our help, or
even permission?

Contrary to your assertion that there are levels of rationality to faith, I
find that faith exists wholly apart from both reason and emotion, although it
has triggered responses from both in many of us. Like "I Am", faith just is,
and we either realize that we have it, or we don't. To claim that faith has
an improved quality by my reasoned understanding of rationalized principles
gleaned from ancient writings is to belie the supernatural quality and source
of my faith.

edit: "plain" to "plane"

Edited by Broken Link on Aug-21-11 at 2:48am


      

Bill
theHarryTick™
heretic - n 1: a person who holds beliefs in conflict with the dogma of the church.
Back to Top
 
goof
Digger
Digger


Joined: Jun-19-11
Posts: 22
Posted: Aug-21-11 at 7:33am | IP Logged  

Broken Link wrote:

Such a discourse is dishonest
in a passive-aggressive manner, for it is meant disguise what is truly being
said. It is the "nice" way of saying, "My faith is real and yours is not."

Far from me this idea of opposition.
If you have read the argument on faith, http://pastehtml.com/view/b4a1pcuob.rtxt , you certainly have noticed that I reject no side of it.
Plus, my all point being here, is to show that the Spirit is the Spirit of reconciliation.

Broken Link wrote:

"All animals have faith, but some have more rational faith than others."

Since when do animal have faith?
They might have certainty in their instinct, but not faith! - come on Link?!?
I would like you to define Faith for me; if you don't mind.
As I said in my argument on Faith, the "certainty" that the egyptian had in their gods, is is far from the Christian Faith. Can we, as well, call the intoxicated state of abandonment of the muslims in the neo-pantheism of their god, faith? In your view, certainly yes!

What is funny about your remark on the Orwelian "ring about" what, by the way, I did not imply, is that we are just in the core of the issue we are argumenting about.
You see, the late century has witnessed a twist in the conception of the religious thought. This forum is certainly not the place to discuss this all matter, but it is of the upmost importance to understand that shift in the leading new credo. We have enter the realm of "natural theology", of which the most influent proponent is, nowadays, Richard Swinburne. And this doctrine has made its way to your mind. And they got exactly where they wanted you to be kept in; namely to reject it bluntly.
As much as Marx (or Charles Taylor,) took Hegel and stripped him of all his religious content to turn him down; the advocate of the leading thought, that is "natural theology," are taking reason to the kingdom of nature; lowering it down to the plane of science and mere understanding; to the realm of finiteness and far from the sphere of Spirit. The result being to keep that old war between Faith and Reason.

You see, before all things, I believe evil to be limited knowledge.

And trust me, I am far from being someone who tries to put himself on a plane above others.
I just believe that if, like many, I have been called through grace, as an "infant," I still have to be chosen; and for that matter, "Become a child" once more. And only Spirit, which presuppose reason (as much as feeling,) can do that for me.
Like one of my good friend once said: "you have the diploma, but you still have not got the job."

Do me a favor, be nice enough to define Faith and Spirit for me.


P.S.
Broken Link wrote:

... rationalized principles gleaned from ancient writings


As far as "ancient writings" are concerned; please read this funny piece of work from Kierkegaard. I love his sense of humour.
Kierkegaard's Attack on Christendom:
http://pastehtml.com/view/b4lq5sjnv.html

Sorry to have to rely on such oldies, but what has been written afterwards is just for me pure marxism or marxism disguised under the name of capitalism.
There is only one master in this world.
As for freedom, if you want it so bad, kill yourself as Hegel would say.
And as for life, if you kill yourself for Him, you might even get eternal life (you might)!
Is that "honest" enough?



      

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:23
Back to Top
 
the shovel
Shackmeister
Shackmeister


Joined: Oct-01-01
Location: United States
Posts: 4187
Posted: Aug-21-11 at 9:03am | IP Logged  

goof wrote:
Broken Link wrote:

"All animals have faith, but some have more rational faith than others."

Since when do animal have faith? They might have certainty in their instinct, but not faith! - come on Link?!?
I would like you to define Faith for me; if you don't mind.
As I said in my argument on Faith, the "certainty" that the egyptian had in their gods, is is far from the Christian Faith. Can we, as well, call the intoxicated state of abandonment of the muslims in the neo-pantheism of their god, faith? In your view, certainly yes!

What is funny about your remark on the Orwelian "ring about" what, by the way, I did not imply, is that we are just in the core of the issue we are argumenting about.


Rob, if you paid a little more attention to what Link actually wrote, you would realize that he was not endorsing Orwell's quote, nor the existence of true faith apart from Christ. He posed that only in reference to what you have seemed to suggest.

Jim


      

DIGGIN'THE LIFE!
Back to Top
 
mcdave
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: Dec-25-01
Location: United States
Posts: 1809
Posted: Aug-21-11 at 10:06am | IP Logged  

without other comment, i hesitate to jump in here because  intellect always seems to bludgeon simplicity when all i think anyone really wants is truth.

Edited by mcdave on Aug-21-11 at 10:06am


      

     It's not works,it's coffee.
   

Back to Top
 
goof
Digger
Digger


Joined: Jun-19-11
Posts: 22
Posted: Aug-21-11 at 11:28am | IP Logged  

the shovel wrote:

Rob, if you paid a little more attention to what Link actually wrote, you would realize that he was not endorsing Orwell's quote, nor the existence of true faith apart from Christ. He posed that only in reference to what you have seemed to suggest.Jim


oh!, ------- Sorry!
I am not too accustomed with this Orwell fellow.
Altough I have read him in my youth, as well as Brave New World :)

Anyway, I hope this will not prevent Bill to define Faith and Spirit.



Edited by goof on Aug-21-11 at 11:33am


      

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:23
Back to Top
 
goof
Digger
Digger


Joined: Jun-19-11
Posts: 22
Posted: Aug-21-11 at 11:31am | IP Logged  

mcdave wrote:

without other comment, i hesitate to jump in here because  intellect always seems to bludgeon simplicity when all i think anyone really wants is truth.


Why? have not you found Truth yet?


P.S.
Let's not confound Intellect and Thought, though!

Edited by goof on Aug-21-11 at 11:50am


      

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:23
Back to Top
 
the shovel
Shackmeister
Shackmeister


Joined: Oct-01-01
Location: United States
Posts: 4187
Posted: Aug-21-11 at 12:19pm | IP Logged  

goof wrote:
Anyway, I hope this will not prevent Bill to define Faith and Spirit.


I'm pretty sure he'll be more than happy to do so. :)

Jim


      

DIGGIN'THE LIFE!
Back to Top
 
HarryTick
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Dec-07-05
Location: United States
Posts: 186
Posted: Aug-21-11 at 12:46pm | IP Logged  

goof,

I tried to follow the reasoning in the writing at the link you provided. At one point
it actually argued that there are not really two types of faith, but there are instead
two types of faith. I must confess that I could not arrive at the argued conclusion.

What is the Spirit indeed? I can see, in the argument, the conundrum as faith is
attempted to be reconciled with knowledge. What someone knows as "fact" is so very hard
to nail down into concrete language, let alone what we feel, believe, suspect, or even
just think as an opinion. It is funny, how what someone knows is so quickly dismissed
as only their opinion, based upon what we know ourselves. So, let me preface this as my
opinion, based on my experience and belief, that the Spirit is that part of God that
responds to the Father's will, even as the Son did, and joins us to Him.

What is Faith? As prefaced before, I would say that it is the understanding given to us
by the Spirit that this relationship exists. As such, it transcends all of the
knowledge that would relegate such a conclusion to my thoughts, or to Thought in
general. It is a knowing without knowing, and even a knowing in spite of not wanting to
know (or not believing). For the believer, it is the proof with no explanation.

While this may seem a copout, it is actually quite frustrating. It would be so much
easier to describe and convey these terms in a concrete manner that could easily be
transferred and understood through written or spoken knowledge. If God would only
conform himself to the realm of man's empirical reasoning and understanding, we could
quantify Spirit and Faith to the satisfaction of all, and there would be none who
doubted.

      

Love,
Bill
theHarryTick™

heretic - n 1: a person who holds beliefs in conflict with the dogma of churches.
Back to Top
 
mcdave
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: Dec-25-01
Location: United States
Posts: 1809
Posted: Aug-21-11 at 1:04pm | IP Logged  

goof wrote:



Why? have not you found Truth yet?



Yes.I have.


Edited by mcdave on Aug-21-11 at 1:04pm


      

     It's not works,it's coffee.
   

Back to Top
 
mcdave
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: Dec-25-01
Location: United States
Posts: 1809
Posted: Aug-21-11 at 1:05pm | IP Logged  

To add to my last comment,"deeper truth" doesn't come by working,it comes by resting.

      

     It's not works,it's coffee.
   

Back to Top
 
mcdave
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: Dec-25-01
Location: United States
Posts: 1809
Posted: Aug-21-11 at 1:09pm | IP Logged  

HarryTick wrote:
It is a knowing without knowing, and even a knowing in spite of not wanting to
know (or not believing). For the believer, it is the proof with no explanation.

While this may seem a copout, it is actually quite frustrating


 Actually,to me rather than this being frustrating,it feels freeing.I long ago gave up having to know the hows and whys and gratefully have been led into a place of resting in what IS.


      

     It's not works,it's coffee.
   

Back to Top
 
goof
Digger
Digger


Joined: Jun-19-11
Posts: 22
Posted: Aug-21-11 at 1:44pm | IP Logged  

HarryTick wrote:
goof,

I tried to follow the reasoning in the writing at the link you provided. At one point
it actually argued that there are not really two types of faith, but there are instead
two types of faith. I must confess that I could not arrive at the argued conclusion.


Two forms, one Faith!

As for Spirit; this is my opinion:

To Spirit belongs the power of differentiation and the full development of the difference; namely the process of God unfolding Himself in His creation.

Spirit, the activity of pure thought, the activity which is not outside of itself, which is within the sphere of its own being.

The first and foremost moment is Absolute Being, spirit absolutely self-contained, so far as it is simple eternal substances. But in the process of realizing its constitutive notion which consists in being spirit, that substance passes over into a form where it exists for an other; its self-identity becomes actual Absolute Being, actualized in self-sacrifice; it becomes a self, but a self that is transitory and passes away. Hence the third stage is the return of self thus alienated, the substance thus abased, into its first primal simplicity. Only when this is done is spirit presented and manifested as Spirit.

For spirit is knowledge of self in a state of alienation of self: spirit is the Being which is the process of retaining identity with itself in its otherness. This, however, is Substance, so far as in its accidents substance at the same time is turned back into itself; and is so, not as being indifferent towards something unessential and, consequently, as finding itself in some alien element, but as being there within itself, i.e. so far as it is subject or self.

Spirit, to which belongs Being which is absolute and supreme, is, exists only as activity ; that is to say, in so far as it posits itself, is actual or for itself, and produces itself. But in this its activity it has the power of knowing, and only as it thus knows is it that which it is.

The Being of Spirit is not thus immediate, but is, exists only as producing itself, as making itself for itself by means of negation as Subject; otherwise it would be substance only. And this coming to itself on the part of Spirit is movement, activity, and mediation of itself with itself.

It is the very nature of Spirit, just because it is living, to be at first only potential, to be in its notion or conception, then to come forward into existence, to unfold, produce itself, become mature, bringing forth the notion of itself, that which it implicitly is, so that what it is in itself or implicitly may be its notion actually or for itself.

The divine conception is complete when Spirit exists as Spirit ; that is to say, when both the conception and reality exist as this Spirit.

Spirit is only Spirit when it exists for itself as the negation of all finite forms, as the absolute idealization.

Spirit is knowledge; but in order that knowledge should exist, it is necessary that the content of that which it knows should have attained to this ideal form, and should in this way have been negated. What Spirit is, must in that way have become its own, it must have described this circle ; and these forms, differences, determinations, finite qualities, must have existed in order that it should make them its own.

Spirit is something living, working, and its impulse is to press on through the series of its manifestations towards the consciousness of itself as embracing all truth.

Spirit is alone Reality. It is the inner being of the world, that which essentially is, and is per se; it assumes objective, determinate form, and enters into relations with itself-it is externality (otherness), and exists for self; yet, in this determination, and in its otherness, it is still one with itself-it is self-contained and self-complete, in itself and for itself at once. This self-containedness, however, is first something known by us, it is implicit in its nature; it is Substance spiritual. It has to become self-contained for itself, on its own account; it must be knowledge of spirit, and must be consciousness of itself as spirit. This means, it must be presented to itself as an object, but at the same time straightway annul and transcend this objective form; it must be its own object in which it finds itself reflected.

That's it, Bill!
Take care!

Oh, one more thing: lets not forget that we were created as His image, weren't we?

_______________

Only spirit understands Spirit - Hegel

Edited by goof on Aug-21-11 at 3:47pm


      

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:23
Back to Top
 
HarryTick
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Dec-07-05
Location: United States
Posts: 186
Posted: Aug-21-11 at 2:31pm | IP Logged  

goof wrote:

...That's it, Bill!

Is that all? Still, it does seem quite complicated, and lends to my case that we lack
adequate faculties to explain the how and why of God.

For some, the idea of the knowledge of God is that he will extend to us this knowledge
that we may be able to explain these things. Again, to me, as in all of this
discussion, the knowledge of God is not an amount that God knows, but knowing God
himself. The how and why of his ways remain above our conceiving, save beyond what is
revealed to us apart from our willful efforts to perceive. Even if those most gifted
of us in reasoning applied all of their ability towards that end, I think it would be
a vanity. For we would waste our time trying to see the end of the endless, giving in
to the original lie, "For ye shall be as God." And although it lacks the credibility
of the world in its approach, biting the apple seems infinitely more simple a method
to attempt to achieve the same goal.

      

Love,
Bill
theHarryTick™

heretic - n 1: a person who holds beliefs in conflict with the dogma of churches.
Back to Top
 
luvin
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: May-20-02
Location: United States
Posts: 5235
Posted: Aug-21-11 at 3:32pm | IP Logged  

and gratefully have been led into a place of resting
in what IS.-Dave

That is a good word brother Dave.




Bill some excellent thoughts shared here.

Adam

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
Back to Top
 
goof
Digger
Digger


Joined: Jun-19-11
Posts: 22
Posted: Aug-21-11 at 3:50pm | IP Logged  

Great thoughts, you all!

Wink, wink! - Clap, clap! - love love!

Bye, bye!
Goof.

Edited by goof on Aug-21-11 at 3:55pm


      

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:23
Back to Top
 
Dave S
Shackaholic
Shackaholic


Joined: Dec-01-01
Location: Isle Of Man
Posts: 913
Posted: Aug-21-11 at 6:46pm | IP Logged  

Why am I thinking in terms of the darkness not being able to stand in the Light ?
Back to Top
 
luvin
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: May-20-02
Location: United States
Posts: 5235
Posted: Aug-21-11 at 10:51pm | IP Logged  

Maybe because it can't.

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
Back to Top
 
HarryTick
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Dec-07-05
Location: United States
Posts: 186
Posted: Aug-24-11 at 6:23pm | IP Logged  

Whether or not goof is still reading this, I read my last comment and felt that I
should clarify; there is nothing wrong with trying to figure it out. There is a
thought, from reading my reply, that the wondering and reasoning is akin to
"original sin", and that couldn't be further from the truth. The issue I take is
that in all the miscommunication between definitions and concepts and precepts, is
the impression from the discussion that some of us may be misinformed and lacking (a
proper education?).

What I did attribute to the original temptation is the idea that
understanding is what brings about the change or benefit in our relationship with
God. Again, the implication is that somehow God is waiting with baited breath for me
to give him permission to act on my behalf. This need to salvage the idea that what
I think/do/say matters is, in my opinion, the source of temptation.



edit: widen margin

Edited by HarryTick on Aug-24-11 at 6:24pm


      

Love,
Bill
theHarryTick™

heretic - n 1: a person who holds beliefs in conflict with the dogma of churches.
Back to Top
 
ShannonC
Shackaholic
Shackaholic


Joined: Jun-21-07
Location: United States
Posts: 749
Posted: Aug-26-11 at 2:49pm | IP Logged  

luvin wrote:


"...in TRYING to get yourself 'out of the way' is that
YOU do it. It throws out the door the very living
spirit of God doing HIS thing in us...in a
miraculous way. Not only this but, look at what you
have to disregard of Gods work in saving us,
redeeming us and making us perfect children who DO
walk upright. You have to trash that whole reality
and simply deny our worth to God.

YES, SIR!!



      

ShannonC
HE IS SO GOOD!
Back to Top
 
luvin
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: May-20-02
Location: United States
Posts: 5235
Posted: Aug-26-11 at 9:18pm | IP Logged  

Well hey there stranger!




      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
Back to Top
 
Dignz
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: Jul-18-06
Location: United States
Posts: 1816
Posted: Aug-26-11 at 10:47pm | IP Logged  

   hey ... it's the SHA!  :)     have missed you!  


      

"afterall, he's not a tame lion"
Back to Top
 
ShannonC
Shackaholic
Shackaholic


Joined: Jun-21-07
Location: United States
Posts: 749
Posted: Aug-30-11 at 9:20am | IP Logged  

Missed y'all too!! Always...And I love coming here and standing with ya in the LIGHT..

      

ShannonC
HE IS SO GOOD!
Back to Top
 

<< Prev Page of 2
 



the shovel home page