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The Stuff of Grace
 Shovel Shack : The Stuff of Grace
Subject Topic: A Heretic’s Heresy?
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anothr14thefire
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Posted: Jul-31-10 at 1:34am | IP Logged  

I had this weird but radical idea...I'm not sure what to think of it. I was thinking about if I had, theoretically, never come across theshovel.net, and read of the true Gospel of Christ.

I wonder if, during the course of my lifetime, God would've a. led me somehow to the belief in Christ, teaching me about Him, or b. instead would He simply teach me how to live (and I mean "live" as in really, truly live). After all, He is in me no matter waht.

Then again, Paul's scripture "and I am determined to know nothing but Christ Jesus & Him crucified."

What do you guys think?
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Broken Link
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Posted: Jul-31-10 at 4:13am | IP Logged  

Justin,

With or without theshovel.net, it is a AND b.

I found the Shack through EternityNow.org, which I
found because I was no longer happy/satisfied with
the answers that Christianity gave and the questions
that they couldn't answer. Like yourself, I do not
consider myself a Christian, but my self-indulgent
allowance is an artificial division of the world.
Even the position we see ourselves in here, as apart
from a creed or denomination on the Shack, is just
as artificial as the creeds and denominations
themselves if we proclaim ourselves as now belonging
to him because we found our way here to the Shack
(shovelshack.net, theshovel.net).

He says, "Ask and it will be given to you. Seek and
you will find. Knock and the door will be opened to
you." (Matt 7:7, NIV) It wasn't in reference to
opportunities in the world, but his desire for us to
know the truth. The truth is we were already his. It
is because we are his that we asked the questions in
the first place that brought us discontent with the
status quo in the world. It wasn't because any of us
stumbled across a specific book or website that led
us to the truth. It was because he was in us, the
Truth was in us, leading us and causing us to ask
and seek and knock in order that we might realize
that he has already set us free.



edit: missing pronoun for clarity

Edited by Broken Link on Jul-31-10 at 8:26pm


      

Bill
theHarryTick™
heretic - n 1: a person who holds beliefs in conflict with the dogma of the church.
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Dignz
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Posted: Jul-31-10 at 9:18am | IP Logged  

perhaps the 'communication' we have with god is so other worldly ... so alien to the reasoning of the world, that it can not be explained to satisfaction, really.  it is a spiritual life, a spiritual connection, a spiritual communication, a spiritual and miraculous union.  it's all wrapped up and intertwined as one inseparable union.  man in god/god in man.  perhaps we fear there is no communication, or that there will be no communication unless we make it happen, so to speak.

perhaps there tends to be some fear over our assumed and reasoned responsibility to take turns to be the 'initiator' in our communication with the god who is far above and distant from us ... in the sweet by and by, as opposed to the ever present here and now.  perhaps there is some sort of reasoning that we bring him nearer if we set about to pray and communicate him nearer, as if we are not truly joined as one, communicating at all times, however silent it may seem to be. 

i dunno ... these are just questions that came to mind.   i will be pondering along with everyone else on these things. 

justin, i am glad that you 'stumbled' this way.  i do believe that god is in the leading and details, no matter how awful and painful our experiences, circumstances and situations ... feelings, hardships, etc.  he works it all for our good because he is good and we are good in him, because of him, with him, etc.  ackhhh ... i dunno really what to say about that right now, so i won't,    but ... really, i so enjoyed what bill shared. 








Edited by Dignz on Jul-31-10 at 9:19am


      

"afterall, he's not a tame lion"
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the shovel
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Posted: Jul-31-10 at 11:40am | IP Logged  

Justin,

Thanks for brining this up and asking the questions, as I think many have wondered the same. The logical mind is filled with What-ifs. And just like Bill expressed, I have also gone through my own self-indulgent speculations. I used to wonder what might have happened if I had not moved down to south Florida and gotten involved in a particular youth group and then eventually heard the "clear gospel". I speculated how I might have died without making sure of my salvation and gone to hell because of it. For a while, I esteemed my Bible College as the only true bastion of Christ in a dying world. I was sure that the truth of salvation would have to come through us since the rest of the religious world had perverted the gospel. Of course, I came to realize that it was not merely the rest of the religious world that had perverted the message of Christ, but that the religious mind as a whole cannot perceive anything else except a fleshly version of Christ. I have come to realize that God is not bound by any perception of him (either mine or any other). While I have often reconsidered or questioned religious doctrines and speculations in my writings, I have also often pointed out that it is not the supposed "truth" that I challenge, but the format or package we imagine is necessary. Something that has made itself known to me is how often the package or container is held to as the truth.

Such is the case with a particular man in Church history: Augustine. While he is held as "Saint Augustine" by the Roman Catholic Church, his writings also play a large part in the theologies of those who tried to reform and then eventually broke away from the Roman Church (aka, the Reformers). I remember reading how sometimes during conflicts between the Roman Church and the Reformers that both would quote from Augustine to make their point. From what I understand, Augustine's search to understand God's grace eventually led him to Rome. Apparently, every place he visited left him totally unfulfilled, until he finally landed in Rome. His conclusions were just like some of our conclusions. You see, Augustine's earlier writings were filled with some pretty strong statements that reflected the conclusion his experiences suggested, which was that Rome was THE place where God was working on the earth. I haven't read much, but I do recognize that the core of Augustine's teachings revolve around the truth that we are nothing, nor can we do anything, apart from God's grace. Now why might Rome have become a center from which this truth was expressed? Let's see ... Rome, Romans ... ring any bells?  Unfortunately, Augustine's earlier high praise of the place where he heard God's grace eventually caused the thing built upon it to become merely a container that lost every shred of truth that stimulated his esteem. To add to what Bill said, we can do the same thing to any good gift given by God.

Jim :)


      

DIGGIN'THE LIFE!
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luvin
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Posted: Jul-31-10 at 11:01pm | IP Logged  

"It
is because we are his that we asked the questions in
the first place that brought us discontent with the
status quo in the world. It wasn't because any of us
stumbled across a specific book or website that led
us to the truth. It was because he was in us, the
Truth was in us, leading us and causing us to ask
and seek and knock in order that we might realize
that he has already set us free."-Bill

Yeah Bill,
I have that same sense now. For we can always look to the outer appearance of things and see all sorts of external reasons, factors, you name it but, the reality of it all is there is a miraculous leading that is taking place from within those who are of Him. I am enjoying seeing  just how real that leading is, was and will be even now.

Adam


      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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luvin
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Posted: Jul-31-10 at 11:11pm | IP Logged  

Dignz wrote:
perhaps the 'communication' we have with god is so other worldly ... so alien to the reasoning of the world, that it can not be explained to satisfaction, really.  it is a spiritual life, a spiritual connection, a spiritual communication, a spiritual and miraculous union.  it's all wrapped up and intertwined as one inseparable union.  man in god/god in man.  perhaps we fear there is no communication, or that there will be no communication unless we make it happen, so to speak.

perhaps there tends to be some fear over our assumed and reasoned responsibility to take turns to be the 'initiator' in our communication with the god who is far above and distant from us ... in the sweet by and by, as opposed to the ever present here and now.  perhaps there is some sort of reasoning that we bring him nearer if we set about to pray and communicate him nearer, as if we are not truly joined as one, communicating at all times, however silent it may seem to be. 

i dunno ... these are just questions that came to mind.   i will be pondering along with everyone else on these things. 

justin, i am glad that you 'stumbled' this way.  i do believe that god is in the leading and details, no matter how awful and painful our experiences, circumstances and situations ... feelings, hardships, etc.  he works it all for our good because he is good and we are good in him, because of him, with him, etc.  ackhhh ... i dunno really what to say about that right now, so i won't,    but ... really, i so enjoyed what bill shared. 








Great post Sherri. I was thinking that this would even fit very well on the "Prayer" post Mary posted.


and you said: "  i do believe that god is in the leading and details, no matter how awful and painful our experiences, circumstances and situations ... feelings, hardships, etc.  he works it all for our good because he is good and we are good in him, because of him, with him, etc. "-Dignz

The thing that immediately popped into my mind was:

"for all who are being led by the Spirit of God,these are the Sons of God" Romans 8;14

and

"And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love Him" Romans 8:28


      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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anothr14thefire
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Posted: Jul-31-10 at 11:43pm | IP Logged  

Bill, about the asking, you are so right. I stumbled upon TheShovel when I thought I blasphemed the Holy Spirit and I was miserable for months. I went to seemingly every pastor in the Pittsburgh area, asking them to tell me if I were still "saved," but never getting any satisfactory answer. The thing was, I wasn't looking for an answer, cuz I slowly started to realize as a Christian, that answers would never satisfy me...that there's nothing stable in logic.

I was looking for God to tell me I was His. And Jim helped me realize I was His with a reply to one of the questions I had asked him. But he didn't give me an answer in his reply. But in it I "heard" the Gospel of Christ.

Edited by anothr14thefire on Jul-31-10 at 11:44pm
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mary
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Posted: Aug-02-10 at 10:50pm | IP Logged  







[/QUOTE]

Great post Sherri. I was thinking that this would even fit very well on the "Prayer" post Mary posted.



[/QUOTE]



    Yes, this is what I though too.  It was like the sweet sound of heavenly music, synchronized and melodiously falling on my ears!  Union.   Thanks so much for posting it Sherri!
      


      

Mary
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Dignz
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Posted: Aug-03-10 at 10:28am | IP Logged  

hmmmm ... yeah ... i am having a lot of 'senior moments'  and brain glitches these days!      i don't know why i put that/those particular posts here.  something that was shared triggered something somewhere in my brain, but the circuitry got all mixed up and i guess i became relocated inappropriately.       i will try to move them over. 



hmmm ... on second thought .... at this point if i move it over, then the other posts commenting on it will be out of place.  i am sorry for the confusion and the 'meshing', but i think i will just leave it and try to be more careful next time.  unfortunately, with my silly mixed up brain function sometimes, i can not promise that it won't happen again.      




Edited by Dignz on Aug-03-10 at 10:33am


      

"afterall, he's not a tame lion"
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luvin
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Posted: Aug-03-10 at 10:37am | IP Logged  

We love u sister!

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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mary
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Posted: Aug-03-10 at 10:43am | IP Logged  


    eh....so what?  My point in bringing it up wasn't to emphasize that it was 'out of place' in the thread, but to emphasize how encouraging it was when I read it!  :)


     And yeah, what he (Adam) said!!! 




      

Mary
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luvin
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Posted: Aug-03-10 at 11:18am | IP Logged  

mary wrote:

    eh....so what?  My point in bringing it up wasn't to emphasize that it was 'out of place' in the thread, but to emphasize how encouraging it was when I read it!  :)


     And yeah, what he (Adam) said!!! 







      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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Dignz
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Posted: Aug-03-10 at 9:06pm | IP Logged  

no prob, really.    i just get 'ditzified' from time to time and do silly things.  no biggie.  just didn't want to frustrate everyone, but ... really ... you almost have to expect it from me from time to time.    so let this be a warning/reminder from now on.  




      

"afterall, he's not a tame lion"
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