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The Stuff of Grace
 Shovel Shack : The Stuff of Grace
Subject Topic: Reconciling
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daniel
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Posted: Jan-30-02 at 8:33pm | IP Logged  

The book of Col.1 vrese 20 Paul talks about all things are reconcile to God threw Jesus Christ.And in 2Cor 5 it tells us we are ministers of reconciliation.Is he telling us that the Lord has all people in right relationship with Himself all we should see all people this way am tell them they are reconciled back to God.Love Dan

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Adam
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Posted: Jan-30-02 at 10:31pm | IP Logged  

hey Dan "i" personally think thats a good and fair question...definatly something i would ask a freind about.[like jim].good luck..Adam
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daniel
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Posted: Feb-02-02 at 8:02pm | IP Logged  

Hi Joe thanks  I see what you are saying and I thank the Lord He is opening our eyes to see this truth.I want to see people the way the Lord Jesus Christ saw them.I thank Him for His grace to all  people.Love Dan
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the shovel
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Good morning!  I'm about to head out the door for a day at work, but I wanted to add something here.      Below is the referenced Bible passage.

2 Corinthians 5:14-21 - For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf. Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Something we usually don't take into account in this portion of the letter to the Corinthians is that Paul was writing this to the "saints"; in other words, to the believers.  Paul's message to these confused people was simple:  God has been reconciled to you because of Christ, so I'm asking you to be reconciled to HIM

Let me say this another way: In Christ, there is no sin held against any, so why are you treating your brothers as if God does hold sin against you?

Well, my time is up.  This writing of Paul has everything to do with how we view all mankind, but it has more to do with how we view ourselves and each other in Christ.

Love,  Jim

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Adam
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Jim why does he say "live forthemselves"?I think it is a key to why so many Christians think service is the antidote to the unpardonable sin!!!!Isnt this too much emphasis on ]moral]self denial?No wonder so many people get launched into WORKS by reading "the Bible"....thoughts?
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daniel
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Posted: Feb-03-02 at 5:58pm | IP Logged  

I Jim  the more I see who I am in Christ and how He does not hold anything against me .I will see others in this way.I thank the Lord Jesus Christ for this form to incourage one another in Christ.Love Dan
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the shovel
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Posted: Feb-03-02 at 8:16pm | IP Logged  

Quote: Originally posted by Adam on 2/03/02
Jim why does he say "live forthemselves"?  I think it is a key to why so many Christians think service is the antidote to the unpardonable sin!!!   Isnt this too much emphasis on [moral] self denial?  No wonder so many people get launched into WORKS by reading "the Bible"....thoughts?

Yeah, you probably need a vacation from your Bible!!!  hahaha! 

"For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf."

We read this as if it's a moralistic self-denial statement simply because it has been used in that context for a long, long time. Because of our religious, moralistic "Christian" heritage we can't seem to see it for what it is clearly stating.  Paul was making a statement of fact, not putting forth something we "might" strive for.  The word "might" is contingient (hangs upon, connected to) what Christ did, not what we might do.

Same thing here:

<<< Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.  For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin. Romans 6:4-7>>>

That phrase "we too might walk in newness of life" and also the part that says "that the body of sin might be done away with" has nothing to do with a "possibility", or a "potential" something that we "might" do.  No, no, no, it hangs upon what Jesus did.  The only reason we automatically assume the word "might" indicates a "works-based" mentality is simply because our religious history has forced it in there!!  It's a complicated mess only because the sin-conscious world has reinterpreted it over the years.

The word "might" is as secure as the one who is doing the necessary thing to bring about the results!  Hey, if it's us then we might as well hang it right now.  But if it is Christ who has done what is necessary then we can rest assured that the "might" is a done deal based on HIS performance.  Are you following?  This means that these are statements of fact, or reality.

"For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.  But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt?" Romans 14:7-10

In this part of the letter to the Romans Paul is dealing with the same thing as in the letter to the Corinthians.  Once again, the context has to do with how these particular believers were viewing one another, which was according to fleshly perceptions in judging and despising one another.  Some thought they were "more spiritual" or "stronger" than others while others accepted the fact that they were "weaker" than these "more spiritual" ones.  It was a false view on both sides and it produced either pride and arrogance, or false humility and criticism.

Paul's statement that "...not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;" is not some moralistic performance to achieve, but instead he states it as a reality - in the same way he did in the Corinthian letter.  It's a little more difficult to miss the point here, but I've seen it done!! 

We (contemporary "Christianity") misread our Bibles just as badly as the religious of Jesus' day misread theirs. 

"Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.  But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?" John 5:45-47

We are simply not obligated to read or view or talk or think or live according to the sin-conscious, blinded perceptions of our contemporary "Christian" society!!!  They read and yet do not understand, they look and yet do not see, they preach and yet do not do, they talk and yet say nothing, they listen and yet do not hear.  This is what we died out of, it is not something Christ died and rose to put us into.

No wonder so many people get launched into WORKS by reading "the Bible

The sin-conscious mind does not need the Bible as an excuse to launch into "WORKS", for that is all it can perceive in everything it comes across.  The Bible merely serves as the projected "divine condemnation" based upon the internal condemnation we take upon ourselves in our performance-based perceptions.

Hey, if the Bible is a condemnation to you then you need to throw it out, because you're obviously not reading anything about the testimony of Christ in those words.  

Realize this: The Bible is not our instruction manual.  It is not the "living word" of God.  It is not how we know God.  It is not our "sole authority on spiritual matters".  The fleshly mind has made the whole book into a "written in stone" book of death!!  The fleshly mind seeks to credit a book with the real working of God's Spirit, for the Spirit of Christ - not the Bible - was given so that we would know God.

Haha!!  You really got me started, bro!!! 

Love, Jim

 

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the shovel
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Posted: Feb-03-02 at 8:24pm | IP Logged  

Quote: Originally posted by daniel on 2/03/02
Jim  the more I see who I am in Christ and how He does not hold anything against me I will see others in this way.  I thank the Lord Jesus Christ for this form to incourage one another in Christ.Love Dan

Dan, you are such a blessing to me and to all who read your wonderful testimony to the real life we have been brought into in Christ. 

A friend of mine recently shared some excellent thoughts.  He asked, "How many were raised when Jesus rose again?" and then went on to declare, "One ... one life was raised, and that was CHRIST". 

We are found in HIS life not ours.  We are defined by HIS life.  This is the union we have been brought into.  A simple consideration of the life of Christ tells us all we need to know about who we really are.

Love,  Jim  

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Adam
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Posted: Feb-04-02 at 10:21pm | IP Logged  

jim very helpfu,thank you so much wth love ADAM

 

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the shovel
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Posted: Feb-05-02 at 4:03pm | IP Logged  

Adam, my brother!

As always, it is so good to hear from you!!

Love,  Jim

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daniel
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Posted: Feb-05-02 at 7:25pm | IP Logged  

I thank the Lord Jesus Christ that He has raise us into His LIFE so He done all that need had to be done that is why He gets all the PRAISE AND GLORY.Jim and to all this is life that makes us one and we can trutly LOVE one another.Love Dan P..S. Ji m I thank the Lord for your incouraging us threw your website it has been a true blessing.

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Adam
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Posted: Feb-07-02 at 3:49am | IP Logged  

jim can you commentSOME on how to the pure all things are pure and how it relates to john saying anyone born of God does not sin....
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the shovel
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Posted: Feb-07-02 at 2:09pm | IP Logged  

Quote: Originally posted by Adam on 2/07/02
jim can you commentSOME on how to the pure all things are pure and how it relates to john saying anyone born of God does not sin....

Adam, I'm moving this to a new posting.  :)

Jim

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luvin
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Posted: Jul-07-10 at 10:34pm | IP Logged  

the shovel wrote:
Quote: Originally posted by Adam on 2/03/02
Jim why does he say "live forthemselves"?  I think it is a key to why so many Christians think service is the antidote to the unpardonable sin!!!   Isnt this too much emphasis on [moral] self denial?  No wonder so many people get launched into WORKS by reading "the Bible"....thoughts?

Yeah, you probably need a vacation from your Bible!!!  hahaha! 

"For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf."

We read this as if it's a moralistic self-denial statement simply because it has been used in that context for a long, long time. Because of our religious, moralistic "Christian" heritage we can't seem to see it for what it is clearly stating.  Paul was making a statement of fact, not putting forth something we "might" strive for.  The word "might" is contingient (hangs upon, connected to) what Christ did, not what we might do.

Same thing here:

<<< Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.  For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin. Romans 6:4-7>>>

That phrase "we too might walk in newness of life" and also the part that says "that the body of sin might be done away with" has nothing to do with a "possibility", or a "potential" something that we "might" do.  No, no, no, it hangs upon what Jesus did.  The only reason we automatically assume the word "might" indicates a "works-based" mentality is simply because our religious history has forced it in there!!  It's a complicated mess only because the sin-conscious world has reinterpreted it over the years.

The word "might" is as secure as the one who is doing the necessary thing to bring about the results!  Hey, if it's us then we might as well hang it right now.  But if it is Christ who has done what is necessary then we can rest assured that the "might" is a done deal based on HIS performance.  Are you following?  This means that these are statements of fact, or reality.

"For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.  But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt?" Romans 14:7-10

In this part of the letter to the Romans Paul is dealing with the same thing as in the letter to the Corinthians.  Once again, the context has to do with how these particular believers were viewing one another, which was according to fleshly perceptions in judging and despising one another.  Some thought they were "more spiritual" or "stronger" than others while others accepted the fact that they were "weaker" than these "more spiritual" ones.  It was a false view on both sides and it produced either pride and arrogance, or false humility and criticism.

Paul's statement that "...not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;" is not some moralistic performance to achieve, but instead he states it as a reality - in the same way he did in the Corinthian letter.  It's a little more difficult to miss the point here, but I've seen it done!! 

We (contemporary "Christianity") misread our Bibles just as badly as the religious of Jesus' day misread theirs. 

"Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.  But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?" John 5:45-47

We are simply not obligated to read or view or talk or think or live according to the sin-conscious, blinded perceptions of our contemporary "Christian" society!!!  They read and yet do not understand, they look and yet do not see, they preach and yet do not do, they talk and yet say nothing, they listen and yet do not hear.  This is what we died out of, it is not something Christ died and rose to put us into.

No wonder so many people get launched into WORKS by reading "the Bible

The sin-conscious mind does not need the Bible as an excuse to launch into "WORKS", for that is all it can perceive in everything it comes across.  The Bible merely serves as the projected "divine condemnation" based upon the internal condemnation we take upon ourselves in our performance-based perceptions.

Hey, if the Bible is a condemnation to you then you need to throw it out, because you're obviously not reading anything about the testimony of Christ in those words.  

Realize this: The Bible is not our instruction manual.  It is not the "living word" of God.  It is not how we know God.  It is not our "sole authority on spiritual matters".  The fleshly mind has made the whole book into a "written in stone" book of death!!  The fleshly mind seeks to credit a book with the real working of God's Spirit, for the Spirit of Christ - not the Bible - was given so that we would know God.

Haha!!  You really got me started, bro!!! 

Love, Jim

 



7/7/10
This was absolutely brilliant! LOVED it!! So helpful you know?  There is SO much I could say about this post of yours my good brother. One thing I will say is that a great distinction I have RE found [for the Lord was teaching me many years before I met you..]in knowing you is that the Bible is most always speaking in terms of absolutes and not in possibilities..which is really a crude description of life in the Spirit vs. life in the drudgery and death of the flesh!


..well while I'm at it I wanted to mention that for the longest time I could not straiten out my thoughts and inner voices I remember during that time in my life were I found myself questioning the church's message. I vaguely only remember saying to myself that I thought that the Bible was becoming hard to read for all I saw was condemnation at a certain point in time...but, I also realized that I was then reading it into the Bible. I can say that honestly because it was formerly a treasure and a pleasure prior to that! Yet I did know that that what I was hearing was having an impact on my reading things into the Bible. It was like a court room. Like I was the judge and I had a person who committed a crime before me and a great attorney who was making his case against the defendant. At the same time though the defense lawyer entered the room and as all eyes were on him he began to proceed to rattle of information based on the same facts of the case that CAUSED REASONABLE DOUBT. Ah that reasonable doubt is what was killing me..for the jury of my heart was constantly being tripped up by it and the more I heard that defense attorney speak the more I knew I was in trouble. I would go to the Bible and see more and more death! Confidence starts to wane and begins to fall apart..

Things I formerly saw past[saw life in] were no longer showing themselves that way to me. I only saw what others must be saying is there, namely death.[human efforts] That realm is pushed at us and we begin to question ourselves, sometimes for many, many years. Wow what a bummer. Yet I see glimpses of God's promise that He causes all things to work together for the good. Also that He is in control. So did I project that onto the Bile myself? Yes I suppose in one way I did. At the same time it was the church that was telling I was dependent on IT and THEY were telling me essentially how to read it. I simply cowered in fear and then ultimately gave in to the fear. Yet I had this beaming light within! I was young and insecure and had nothing in those days and so I really struggled...geez especially with the fact that I was having this growing refusal to accept the IC formulas any longer. I thought I was in "rebellion" as it was defined to me.

ah memories...

Thanks Jim,


Adam


      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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Dignz
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wow ... i especially love this:

"A friend of mine recently shared some excellent thoughts.  He asked, "How many were raised when Jesus rose again?" and then went on to declare, "One ... one life was raised, and that was CHRIST".


We are found in HIS life not ours.  We are defined by HIS life.  This is the union we have been brought into.  A simple consideration of the life of Christ tells us all we need to know about who we really are."    <-Jim  

  one life raised ... his life in whom we are found/contained, defined, supported, maintained, sustained and kept.    awesome!






      

"afterall, he's not a tame lion"
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