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Ministry/Church Related
 Shovel Shack : Ministry/Church Related
Subject Topic: "Between Noon And Three" by Capon
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Joyce
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Posted: Mar-29-07 at 11:12pm | IP Logged  

Am just reading a new book and not that far into it to know all about it yet, but am excited in the fact that it is a parable that may help me to understand a little more with regard to that which is "dead".  The book is a parable that involves an affair.... where the revelation of Grace seems to be the purpose.  He compares it to the prodigal son parable, which he says is not mainly about the prodigal son... or even secondarily about the embittered brother; but is mainly about the Father and the fatted calf.... meaning that it is about the father's Love and grace, and consequent celebration of Life.

It also mentions about confession and states that confession is not the first step on the road to recovery; it is the last step in the displaying of a corpse.  

Funny how I agree with everyone who is all about declaring our 'old man dead'.... and do believe it on some kind of factual basis, but don't think I really understand in my heart as much as I want to.  Still seem to have a questioning glance towards it yet.  I've had questions again in my life regarding "feelings" of past things that have happened.... but know that I can see a little more now... and hopefully a lot more down the road that ALL these things (I'm feeling) are from that which is dead  ... and maybe about that which is dead. 

May have more to share as I read on.   Just felt like sharing this now.   Thanks for listening....

Joyce



Edited by Joyce on Mar-29-07 at 11:59pm
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Tim P
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Posted: Mar-30-07 at 1:32am | IP Logged  

Joyce wrote:

 I've had questions again in my life regarding "feelings" of past things that have happened.... but know that I can see a little more now... and hopefully a lot more down the road that ALL these things (I'm feeling) are from that which is dead  ... and maybe about that which is dead. 

May have more to share as I read on.   Just felt like sharing this now.   Thanks for listening....

Joyce

< = defer>

Joyce,

If I understand what you are saying about feelings regarding past things I can relate perhaps to some degree, but am not as far along as you in recognizing it as being of the "old man".

Recently, I have found myself elating in feelings of some new found freedom, but then I do or say something that seems to return me to what I was feeling before and wonder if the freedom is just an illusion.  Well, I'm not sure if I am addressing your thoughts at all now, so I'll stop.  Tell us more what you discover as you read this book.  Is it a novel on the public market, or just in Xian bookstores?

Tim

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Connie
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Posted: Mar-30-07 at 7:25am | IP Logged  

Joyce and Tim,

This very experience of the old giving way to the new is really being exercised within my own heart/soul during this period in my life.  I have to give all the credit to Him, as I recognize it all.  When I slip back into thinking of His life with the old mind set, I, like you Tim, do wonder if that newness/freedom is just an illusion.  It isn't!  But without His Spirit guiding us in the expression/experience of it, it doesn't happen.  What?  Do you think He will share His glory with you/me? I know that sounds facetious, but I didn't mean it to be.  He really knows we aren't capable of coming up with it on our own.  The understanding, I mean.

One thing I've discovered.  In the process of walking, seeing, being, realizing this grace and freedom that is in Christ, pain seems to me to be the door.  Like Paul said, the power of resurrection is available through the fellowship of his sufferings.  And your sufferings are His, if you're in Him.  It's all a wonderful, god blessed mystery, and we're all very privileged to even know it exists, let alone be a part or walk in it. 



      

Connie
"Wow!It's so bright in here!"
II Cor.4:5-6

    
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Joyce
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Posted: Mar-30-07 at 10:57am | IP Logged  

Tim,

Yes, I ordered the book from a local "public market" store.  I understand as well the "new freedom" thinking that at times gets pushed back by the engrained that has been a part of us for so long.  In my opinion, the new is the reality and the old is the illusion. 

Connie,

I liked your statement about it all being a wonderful, God blessed mystery, and how we are all "very privilidged to even know it exists, let alone be a part or walk in it."   How so true that is.  As I'm reading this and reading about the opposite mindset, I see it so plainly in all that I have been grown up in and see as a part of the majoity of Christendom.  I have to keep reminding myself that it is all under His control and by His doing that things are the way they are.  As I read, I realize I am still being expanded in this arena of Grace, which is not something that you tack on as a doctrine to learn.... but is totally radical.... totally incomprehensible to the natural man...  totally without limits.... totally without the ways that man would dilute in any way.  Yes, we are indeed blessed.  

It also talks about Law being causitive and grace, curative.  But the main point is that what is dead is dead.... separated and really of no consideration, it seems anymore.  And as Lazarus had no control over the "come forth" mandate, so we as resurrected had no control over the fact that that happened to us.  We are not the dead anymore.... anymore than Lazarus was when he came forth from the grave. 

Hmm..... well folks, that's my Easter sermon for this year.  

Marissa!  (See I keep forgetting who I am.)   

 

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Connie
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Posted: Mar-30-07 at 12:36pm | IP Logged  

Marissa,

I like what you quoted about law being causitive and grace, curative.  That's radical.  I've tried to get some of Capon's books from the local library, but they don't have them.  Guess I'll have to break down and buy some. I've been drawn to read his stuff before, but haven't got to it yet.



      

Connie
"Wow!It's so bright in here!"
II Cor.4:5-6

    
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rickh
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Posted: Mar-30-07 at 6:24pm | IP Logged  

hi all. havent posted  in awhile and joyces comments really hit home. i really appreciate what you all said buuuuuuuut, it seems like when i "just live" as dave was talking about on another thread, i feel like im missing something. yet when i try to "figure" things out or understand, i just get frustrated. kind of like chasing a dangling carrot. 

 i know we're in Christ, and dont get me wrong, ive had moments, brief and far and few between mind you, when ive totally known Gods grace and freedom with feelings of wow!, but they seem to be so fleeting and sparse. am i impatient, anxious, confused, frustrated? Yes to all of the above i think.  i seem to be caught between a hard place and a rock sometimes.  would any of you call that a low sense of awareness possibly?  Just my latest thought.  thanks for listening (reading)



      

rick
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Connie
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Posted: Mar-30-07 at 6:42pm | IP Logged  

Rick,,,,hi!

Your experiences sound like mine...unpredicted and sporadic! One  thing I would say in initial response to you is that if you "believe" you're a possessor of a "low sense of awareness," maybe that would interrupt the flow or whatever. Your awareness might just have to be his doing, too.  But even as I say that, I'll say: 

I sometimes wonder at our "responsibility" towards the things of God in our lives.  Do we have to be aware?  Is it up to us to "pursue God"?  It seems like sometimes it's such a balancing act, huh?  In the end, though, if I get too anxious or frustrated, I end up throwing up my hands and say to Him:  "I guess if you really want me to know or see or something, Lord, you're more than able to so get my attention that I can't ignore you".  And then I find myself entering into that state of rest and I just wait. There are a lot of words in the bible about waiting and resting and it's a lot easier to consider those actions vs. having to produce some sort of results.  Anyway..... 

that's my take on it. 



Edited by Connie on Mar-30-07 at 6:44pm


      

Connie
"Wow!It's so bright in here!"
II Cor.4:5-6

    
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BobB
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Posted: Mar-30-07 at 6:58pm | IP Logged  

Connie wrote:

  And then I find myself entering into that state of rest and I just wait. There are a lot of words in the bible about waiting and resting and it's a lot easier to consider those actions vs. having to produce some sort of results.  Anyway..... 

that's my take on it. 

They that wait shall receive His strengh and soar like eagles!



Edited by BobB on Mar-30-07 at 7:02pm


      

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rickh
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Posted: Mar-30-07 at 7:59pm | IP Logged  

thankyou for your responses.  resting sure does sound better than chasing, huh? but i better not "try" to rest i guess, cause then it wouldnt be resting would it? haha!  appreciate it.  

      

rick
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BobB
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Posted: Mar-30-07 at 8:32pm | IP Logged  

 Rest is realized through the test. Would there be a test if we walked in rest? Like Connie said, Just throw up your arms and realize your out of control!!

I end up throwing up my hands and say to Him:  "I guess if you really want me to know or see or something, Lord, you're more than able to so get my attention that I can't ignore you".  And then I find myself entering into that state of rest and I just wait. 



      

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rickh
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Posted: Mar-30-07 at 8:48pm | IP Logged  

i love that Bob and Connie! re-reading that was like reading something totally different from the first time. amazing how that works. Bob, yours and Connies words combined made so much sense to me. Id say thats a miraculous catch 22.  sooo, how do i do this again? just kidding!  

      

rick
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Connie
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Posted: Mar-31-07 at 1:19pm | IP Logged  

Hey BobB,

got another jolt of understanding from what you shared about rest being realized through the test!

The test comes but the test is really just a manifestation of  our living and doing from the old mindset. You really do reap what you sow, but as one in Christ, as the difficulties manifest, a new way is there waiting to be discovered.  Looking at it from the new viewpoint, or from the new man, causes one to overcome as he sees the old, the test, the "fruit" as dead and over with.  We don't have to live our lives from that place any longer.  Herein is the victory.



      

Connie
"Wow!It's so bright in here!"
II Cor.4:5-6

    
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Joyce
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Posted: Apr-03-07 at 9:32am | IP Logged  

Interestingly, as I am reading on, it is talking about the things that we are up against that may not exactly fit under the "law" category, but are things that are fed into our minds.  These are the ones that come to us as "Spiritual" things to do... a more "perfecting" of our walk.  The example was given of the man that came to Jesus who finally said he had kept all the those laws... so Jesus said, then one thing you still need to do... go and sell all (and not only that) but then "follow me".  In other words, people will try to do their best to keep the law, but for those there is always that "missing of the mark" because there is always that "extra mile" somewhere out there that will really make you more toward "perfect".  There is probably no end to this and how it can come at a person.  I think I have probably heard many sermons in this vein.  There is always more for you to "do".  The standard just keeps getting raised higher.   Just thought it intresting.... so thought I would share.

Also, don't mean to imply that since the example was from something that Jesus said, that that is the way He is.  Maybe the "time" that it was said in was significant, but also, I remember a particular pair of people that came to my door to talk about spiritual things.  I knew their organization to be especially legalistic.  The main thing that I said to this one lady was, "Well, it does say, "Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect."   She looked at me kind of strange and said in kind of a flustered manner, "We can't do EVERYTHING perfect!"  To which I don't think I said anything.



Edited by Joyce on Apr-03-07 at 9:44am
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luvin
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Posted: Jul-03-07 at 9:37pm | IP Logged  

Joyce I find your whole post interesting.The extra mile thing is a great point..and I even see it through your descriptions of your interaction with this religous group.Just one more thing...oh and this too---on and on---great distinction.

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

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