Surfing on life banner
The ShovelShack Archives
Between January 2002 and December 2011, almost 46,000 posts were created by members of the Shovel Shack discussion group.
In 2012, the Shovel Shack moved to a new home: shovelshack.org. Shovelshack.net will be kept intact as an archive for those amazing discussions.

Browse a bit and then join us at ShovelShack.org

Real Life in Christ
 Shovel Shack : Real Life in Christ
Subject Topic: Fulfilled Prophecy
Author
Message << Prev Topic | Next Topic >>
Adam
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Dec-31-01
Location: United States
Posts: 124
Posted: Dec-31-01 at 6:16am | IP Logged  

hows grace gonna florish with hardly any sopprt
Back to Top
 
Adam
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Dec-31-01
Location: United States
Posts: 124
Posted: Dec-31-01 at 6:19am | IP Logged  

why does it seem the apostles were taking old test scripture and twisting them alittle to apply to christ?"a voice is heard...Rachel weeping for her children are no more..."
Back to Top
 
Richard
Shackaholic
Shackaholic


Joined: Nov-11-01
Location: Canada
Posts: 733
Posted: Dec-31-01 at 6:31am | IP Logged  

 

Here's someting from a friend of mine.

Love,

Richard

God Himself as Our Satisfaction

 2 Tim. 4:22 The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be (is) with you.

Ephes. 3:2 Surely you have heard about the administration (Gk dispensation) of God's grace that was given to me for you,

John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through (Gk en, meaning “ in”) Jesus Christ.

2 Cor. 13:14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

We need to see what the administration or dispensation of grace is. John 1:17 says grace came through or “in” Jesus Christ. During the time of the Old Testament, there was law, but not grace. Grace did not come until Christ came. Christ is the grace of God. Christ Himself is the unmerited gift of God in answer to all of our burning inner desires and needs.

Many Christians think that grace refers mainly to material blessings but this is not so. John 1:17 says that grace did not come before Christ, but we know that God certainly bestowed material blessings on His people before Christ came. So material items are not the objects of grace that satisfy our desire. Grace is nothing less than God Himself given to us, gained by us, and enjoyed by us as our satisfaction.

Before Christ came, God could not be given to anyone. No one could receive God or enjoy Him. But in Christ and through Christ’s indwelling, we receive God. God Himself in Christ, is now given to indwell us, if we will only receive Him (Jn 1:12). But we usually will not receive Him until the other stuff we seek is found so wanting and unfulfilling, that we will then turn to Him.

Once received, Christ then becomes our enjoyment, our satisfaction, and the fulfillment of all that we wrongly sought to fulfill our desire in this earthly life. It is a blessing to have our dreams shattered by disappointment and unfulfillment; this was so we might seek further to find Him as the grace of God to satisfy us within. Nothing of this world, material or relational can meet our needs. We’ve sought the perfect this or that and were never fulfilled. In fact, most always, these were a disappointment even when we got what we thought would satisfy. This is because our satisfaction can only be met in relationship with the love of God in Christ. We sought material possessions, perfect jobs, the perfect family, perfect children, perfect spousal relationships; and as wonderful as these may be, all these were disappointments, either never met or never sufficient to satisfy the burning desire we have within; these were as a clouds without rain, a wells without water – but relationship with Christ is the living water to quench our thirst. The hope of satisfaction was there but we sought its fulfillment in the wrong things – for it was intended that only He could meet out desire for satisfaction. That desire was given by God that we might seek and find Him who is all – God, as our loving Father and Jesus Christ as our eternal indwelling and faithful spouse.

Therefore, grace is God Himself as our satisfaction and enjoyment. The dispensation of grace is the dispensing of God into people to be their satisfaction. Because we partake of God as our enjoyment, we can share Him as grace and love to others who will receive Him. This is the dispensation of grace. - END                                 Arthur J Licursi   

Back to Top
 
the shovel
Shackmeister
Shackmeister


Joined: Oct-01-01
Location: United States
Posts: 4187
Posted: Dec-31-01 at 3:46pm | IP Logged  

Quote: Originally posted by Adam on Monday, December 31, 2001
why does it seem the apostles were taking old test scripture and twisting them alittle to apply to christ?"a voice is heard...Rachel weeping for her children are no more..."

Hello Adam!!  Good to see you on the Shack, bro!!! 

That is an excellent question!!  You know, it almost sounds like they couldn't help but see Christ in EVERYTHING!!  It's just like when we see Christ in a movie that really had nothing to do with him in particular.  The fact is, though, that since Christ is life, he really does have everything to do with everything.  We are brought into a relationship with God where true relating with others involves seeing below the surface down into the reality of what is really going on in life.

Jim

Back to Top
 
the shovel
Shackmeister
Shackmeister


Joined: Oct-01-01
Location: United States
Posts: 4187
Posted: Dec-31-01 at 3:51pm | IP Logged  

Quote: Originally posted by Richard on Monday, December 31, 2001

Grace is nothing less than God Himself given to us, gained by us, and enjoyed by us as our satisfaction.

Therefore, grace is God Himself as our satisfaction and enjoyment. The dispensation of grace is the dispensing of God into people to be their satisfaction. Because we partake of God as our enjoyment, we can share Him as grace and love to others who will receive Him. This is the dispensation of grace. - END                                 Arthur J Licursi   


Richard, a good word here, bro!! 

Jim

Back to Top
 
Adam
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Dec-31-01
Location: United States
Posts: 124
Posted: Dec-31-01 at 4:38pm | IP Logged  

Hey Shovel,thanks for the dialogue.Seems like lots ofthe new testament"prophesiesare old scriptures[old test[]pulled out of random sentences made to look as though they fit with the apostles way of thought...almost as if they spiritualized things that were maybe not meant for tghat purpose...and yet we know Jesus said the scriptures" testify of Him"When we go and match them up and we see no relation[with exception to isiah]are we sopposed to not ask questions and blindly sing along?Didnt they know we wpuld look these things up?Are the apostles so filled with grace that they could take something from amiddle of a sentence that had no relation to the future and somehow have just cause to say it is a prophesy?I sthis me just being legalistic?I saw as a young Christian that this was seemingly inconsistant but all i seem to get from others is:"you dont have faith"Any thoughts?Am i alegalist for noticing these things?Anybody out there ever ask these knida questions....BLESSYALL "A"

 

Back to Top
 
the shovel
Shackmeister
Shackmeister


Joined: Oct-01-01
Location: United States
Posts: 4187
Posted: Dec-31-01 at 7:45pm | IP Logged  

Quote: Originally posted by Adam on Monday, December 31, 2001

Seems like lots of the new testament prophesies are old scriptures[old test] pulled out of random sentences made to look as though they fit with the apostles way of thought...almost as if they spiritualized things that were maybe not meant for that purpose...and yet we know Jesus said the scriptures" testify of Him" 


Of course, another way to consider this is that maybe they saw life where the flesh only saw a dry old story.  The stories themselves reflect many more realities than are seen on the surface.  It is not much different than considering how many of Jesus' "answers" simply did not appear to answer the questions asked of him ... but the fact is that they DID.  He saw beneath the rhetoric and was not thrown off by the rabbit trails and smoke screens created by the words of those who questioned him - for he went straight to the heart of the real question.

Paul stated that the things that happened, as recorded in the old writings, "happened as examples for us ..." (1 Cor 10:6).  Now, I don't think that when those things originally happened that those people would have in any way considered them to have happened for anybody in a future time, but for us all things are different and God has somehow made them all for us.


When we go and match them up and we see no relation [with exception to isiah] are we sopposed to not ask questions and blindly sing along? Didnt they know we wpuld look these things up? Are the apostles so filled with grace that they could take something from a middle of a sentence that had no relation to the future and somehow have just cause to say it is a prophesy?


 Life is the main consideration in all things in Christ.  There has been a tendency over the years to stretch every thing the apostles said into a future sense even though most of it was more relevant to the present reality found in our life in Christ. 


Is this me just being legalistic? I saw as a young Christian that this was seemingly inconsistant but all i seem to get from others is:"you dont have faith"  Any thoughts?  Am i alegalist for noticing these things?  Anybody out there ever ask these kinda questions....BLESS YALL "A"


Through many years of legalistic systems being attached to the Bible, as if it fits so hand-in-glove, religion has created most of the situations that many are now afraid to question under the condemnation that to do so is to "lack faith".  The inconsistencies are RELIGIOUS in nature because it has approached the written words in such a scientific or clinical fashion.  Yes, I mean scientific. 

Many who proclaim a belief in the "inerrancy" of scripture seem to lean more toward the inerrancy of their own system of understanding of how "everything fits together".  I used to assume this was all built upon a "great faith" in God, but I have realized that an awful lot of FEAR and INSECURITY lies hidden under much of it.  It's a very strange "faith" that ends up tearing down those who don't "line up" with your own "truth", don't you think?

The reality is that the apostles weren't establishing a "system", but were only concerned about proclaiming the life of Christ.  Don't blame them for all the supposed future "prophecies" that required such a legalistic rigidity and cause such "schisms" between brothers. 

Jim
Back to Top
 
Adam
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Dec-31-01
Location: United States
Posts: 124
Posted: Dec-31-01 at 9:25pm | IP Logged  

Shovel man,theres alot of emphasis on "life" in youre reply and i like your train of thought very much. Thanks.I have encountered those who seem to have  a "great faith"which in reality is only a legalistic conclusion with a quarter ' cup a grace' mixed in.i feel they are saying:"the Bible is true"which in reality, it seems that they mean whatTHEY believe it says is true...But what about the word"prophesy"or "fortell".Whether Jesus speaking or a disciple speaking[especially in acts][gospels] it seems to imply a  direct ,or exclusive item that which was "prophesied"about or "fortold"...are we not to look for a direct conclusion?I was taught that our "faith was in vain "if Jesus wasnt the messiah that the old testament"prophesied" about so i guess iam baffled that those very people dont take the time to reconcile obvious claims to the fullest extent! I like the idea of the Life being there before anything was spoken but there are direct quotes from Jesus and diciples that youd have to be crazy to call "prophesy of anything"...Pictures,shadows,foreshadowing,types....i dont think ibuy that when the quote itself claims PROPHESY OF CHRIST.....AM I BEING TERRIBLY NITPICKY?I FEEL LIKE IM SOUNDING LIKE I WANNA DISPROVE SOMETHING...WHAT I REALLY WANT IS SOME ANSWERS...DO YOU THINK IM NOT A BELEIVER BECAUSE I SMELLTROUBLE IN THE REALM OF PROPHESY?ADAM
Back to Top
 
the shovel
Shackmeister
Shackmeister


Joined: Oct-01-01
Location: United States
Posts: 4187
Posted: Dec-31-01 at 9:49pm | IP Logged  

<<< DO YOU THINK IM NOT A BELEIVER BECAUSE I SMELLTROUBLE IN THE REALM OF PROPHESY?ADAM >>>

No, I do not think that at all.  Will have to get back to you on this at another time since I'm about to go to bed.

Jim 

Back to Top
 
Adam
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Dec-31-01
Location: United States
Posts: 124
Posted: Dec-31-01 at 10:01pm | IP Logged  

OK
Back to Top
 
the shovel
Shackmeister
Shackmeister


Joined: Oct-01-01
Location: United States
Posts: 4187
Posted: Jan-01-02 at 7:46am | IP Logged  

Quote: Originally posted by Adam on Monday, December 31, 2001


I have encountered those who seem to have  a "great faith"which in reality is only a legalistic conclusion with a quarter ' cup a grace' mixed in.


 Good description. 


But what about the word"prophesy"or "fortell".  Whether Jesus speaking or a disciple speaking[especially in acts][gospels] it seems to imply a direct ,or exclusive item that which was "prophesied"about or "fortold"...are we not to look for a direct conclusion?


 When considering these prophecies it is important to note how their conclusions fit in with how Jesus and/or the apostles described them.  We are so quick to read them into OUR perceptions so that they fit for us into our circumstances.  What we usually end up with is a technical view of "future events" that has little bearing on the context they described as being "fulfilled".  Somehow, the disciples of Jesus could go in and read the OT scriptures and come out preaching JESUS, while we read it and come out with "practical principles" and systems of future events.  Hmmm ... I wonder how that happens? 


I was taught that our "faith was in vain "if Jesus wasnt the messiah that the old testament"prophesied" about so i guess iam baffled that those very people dont take the time to reconcile obvious claims to the fullest extent! 


 Many of us who teach of this new life are often caught up in varying degrees of confusion.  I fully understand this.   We have grown up in a time of such confusion of thought because our whole Christian culture is rooted in the same "wisdom of the world" that Paul spoke of to the Corinthians.  Yes, the "Christian" words are there, but the rationale has forced us to try to make it fit into an acceptable form so that people can "understand" it.


AM I BEING TERRIBLY NITPICKY?I FEEL LIKE IM SOUNDING LIKE I WANNA DISPROVE SOMETHING...WHAT I REALLY WANT IS SOME ANSWERS


I think you're being nitpicky simply because that is how "Christianity" may have been related to you, so that you want to understand it within the context you learned it in.  Many of the best answers you will find are the questions themselves that expose the fleshiness of a mindset that has no life in it.  In Christ, you have been brought into true understanding because HE IS IN YOU and it truly makes sense in your inner man but clashes with the rationale of the worldly conclusions.

Gotta go to work on this lovely rainy New Year's Day! 

Jim 

Back to Top
 
Adam
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Dec-31-01
Location: United States
Posts: 124
Posted: Jan-01-02 at 3:19pm | IP Logged  

Shovel,you make a good point when you say we try to understand within the parameters in which we were originally taght.I think the conclusions of man are based mwybe on mans thinking  or trying to understand....to attempt to get a "scientific"answer might be because we are taght to approach the Bible in this light.When it comes to Messianic prophesies from old to new, or simply "christian event" prophesies im always looking for the miraculous ,exact fit that people are swearing up and down is there ...so i assume i should go about doing the exact same thing.....when i dont see the match i begin to doubt Jesus and yet in my spirit i cant help but believe Him ..its a very strange,scary sensation..and i often feel alone because the one crowd is saying im blind while the other is saying what does it matter......but the premise of :"we must see Christ in the old"then im doomed to just stand there parqalyzed..[TRAPPED,CANT GO FORWARD OR BACK} THANK GOD I AM ABLE TO EVEN DIALOGUE WITH YOU AND YOU STILL THINK IM SAVED!.PRAISE JESUS....UNTIL NEXT TIME...ADAM

Back to Top
 
Adam
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Dec-31-01
Location: United States
Posts: 124
Posted: Jan-02-02 at 4:48am | IP Logged  

Hey one more thing......when im talking about "prophesy"iam only referring to old testement scripture that was said to have been to be fulfilled in the gospels time and or the book of acts...no future prophesy so to speak....just the good ole'..."and this took place so that which was written would be fullfilled"...and..."of whom the prophets all testify.."\those type of scriptures...like stuff about king DAVID,orJonah,Joshoua.....or just random sentences that could be taken out of an old story that the apostles would saywas a fulfilled prophesy in THERE TIME....just wanted to clarify just incase you saw future not 'THERE FULFILMENT TIME"....                   ADAM

Back to Top
 
the shovel
Shackmeister
Shackmeister


Joined: Oct-01-01
Location: United States
Posts: 4187
Posted: Jan-03-02 at 8:18am | IP Logged  

Quote: Originally posted by Adam on Wednesday, January 02, 2002

Hey one more thing......when im talking about "prophesy"iam only referring to old testement scripture that was said to have been to be fulfilled in the gospels time and or the book of acts...no future prophesy so to speak....just the good ole'..."and this took place so that which was written would be fullfilled"...and..."of whom the prophets all testify.."\those type of scriptures


Hello Adam,

Concerning the stated fulfillments of "scripture" you are going to have to throw away most of your assumptions as to what you think would make for an exact fulfillment.  Instead, begin looking for what it was that THEY saw by describing it that way.  You gotta figure, those who heard them say these things didn't seem to question it the same way we question it.  Most of the reactions to these stated claims were very simple in that they revolved around how Jesus fit into all of it.  If they said that the scripture was fulfilled, and then someone questions the legitimacy of Jesus then the obvious "fulfillment" is seen to be related to a simpler premise rather than being a detailed fulfillment of technical data.

The bottom line in all this is to consider how these people saw it at the time.  I'm not suggesting that we need to "spiritualize" the prophecies, but instead to break them free from OUR modern day assumptions as to what makes for "fulfillment" since the people at the time of their "fulfillment" understood the implications of the said "fulfillment".

Consider our own modern communication.  If someone from another time were to get an "accurate" translation of our words they would end up becoming absolutely baffled by many of the things we take for granted.  For example, I've used the phrase "blown away" numerous times ... how do you suppose some foreigner might "interpret" that?  If the Bible had been written in our language and then translated into another I have no doubt there would be numerous books written in attempt to explain all the "discrepancies".    And then consider the added misunderstandings to the foreigner if the original statements were taken from another ancient language.  Yikes!! 

I know this makes it sound almost impossible to get an accurate representation of the original meaning, but that's only because we have assumed that understanding comes through man's ability to figure it out.  haha!  Not a chance!!!  My advice?  Stop worrying about what man's religious system demands and simply see the LIFE that oozes out all throughout the written word, and notice how the "fulfillments" always had their true meaning in Christ.  Once you see it this way you will discover that nothing has ever changed regarding man's perspective because you will see that people react the exact same way to the reality of the life of Christ in the world around you as they did back then.

Jim

 

Back to Top
 
Adam
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Dec-31-01
Location: United States
Posts: 124
Posted: Jan-04-02 at 4:49am | IP Logged  

HELLOShovel! You didnt call me an unbeliever and arrogant!Where is the insult?Im so used getting insulted when i ask a  question.[not by you]Thanks for taking time.i think that the apostles werent taking time to really read or they went by memory or were over excited or trying to lie .i also think they didnt have aBible handy like us....These are the possibilities in my mind which seems to sqeeze out credibilty for me.But this bothers me i want to see the evidence point to reality that includes the good resurected Savior that was to come from of old..not apostles seeking to sway people by relying on the powerful things people heard about Jesus mixed with alitlle spiritualizing.....old test! And honestly i would leave at thaT IF I DIDNT HAVE THIS HOPE OTHERWISE.Now i realize i might now sound like an unbeliever but i was a believer "then" figured out this stuff[if thats what you call it]So it doesnt make me feel good to arrive at these conclusions even condemnation aside.it seems like the crowd could of not been educated "perfectly in th old test}maybye as much as th apostles who quoted their now'SPIRITUAL"CONCLUSION...I WONDER IF PEOPLE WHO KNEW THE SCRIPTURES{PHARISEES}DID QUESTION THESE CLAIMS OF OLD TESTAMENT"SPIRITUALIZING.......AND THATS WHY THEY SAW THEM AS ANUESANCE AND CRAZY OR DRUNK WITH TOO MUCH WINE...OK HERES AS CRITICAL AS I CAN BE ....IM DONE FOR AWHILE....PLEASE RESPOND THE BEST YOU KNOW TO,I REALIZE IM GETTING VERY CRITICAL BUT I VALUE YOUR OPINION AS I NARROW DOWN MY QUESTIONS AND VOICE MY INSECURTIES.....I FEEL CLOSE TO LAYING THIS ONE POSSIBLY TO REST...I WANT TO REJOYCE NOT COMPLAIN..SORRY IF THIS LOOKS LIKE A GRIPE SESSION.....adam
Back to Top
 
the shovel
Shackmeister
Shackmeister


Joined: Oct-01-01
Location: United States
Posts: 4187
Posted: Jan-04-02 at 7:58am | IP Logged  

Adam,

Instead of questioning these things as a REACTION to the whole system that beat you up you might want to simply re-read the accounts one at a time.  Start wth the encounters between Jesus and the religous leaders, and simply pay attention to the dialog and reactions.  When he speaks of a "fulfilled prophecy" notice the lack of any rebuttals of his "interpretations".

The fact is his words demonstrated that he knew who it was he was speaking about.  That's the "authority" the people recognized in him.  This is the same thing the people recognized in the words of those who had been with Jesus.  The power was not one of persuasion, but of something real.  That's why the religious reactions to them took the form of an attack.  

Come on, think about what could have made the religious minded suggest that 120 disciples were drunk with too much wine as they heard them speak of the wonders of God in the languages of their homelands!  That is a REACTION against something real that they simply had no means of explaining.  We've reacted in the same fashion our whole lives.  It makes no difference if it's about who gets the girl or who is the best looking or the smartest ... when it became obvious that our "proofs" didn't support our case we always ended up resorting to some form of attack.

So, take some time and re-read some of these stories that have bothered you, and pay attention to the actual reactions and responses to see if it doesn't sound less and less like Jesus and the apostles were making stuff up and more and more like the scribes and Pharisees were the ones making things up.  It shouldn't come as a surprise to discover that religious reactions and manipulations haven't changed any over the last two millennia.

Jim

Back to Top
 
Adam
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Dec-31-01
Location: United States
Posts: 124
Posted: Jan-05-02 at 2:00am | IP Logged  

HEY Jim,looked up some "prophesies" in acts.....I guess this is what i do,i read the "reference"to the old testament passage tha t is sopposed to be the fulfilled prophesy come true first.Then i think abiout the apostles expliannation for "why" they think it applies..and i read the passage to see how much of a strecth needs to take place.I read it first for how they say it moves then i read it for its context.Yhen i red it for what would be more natural to assume about it...and i find a stretch every time!Acts2/24.....for david says of Him:i was alwatys beholding the lord in my presence[lord isgod]for he is at my righjt hand[david was backed by the lord]that i may not be shaken.therfore my heart was glad and my younge exalted,[describig david,rather than divinity]moreover my flesh also will abide in hope[davids f lesh,jesus didnt need this divine help,nor did he come to earth for such]because thou will not abandon[god is one with chrsit ,only david or a human being concerned with abandonment or hell for that matter]my soul[his feelings]to hades,nor allow[still referncing to the same person]thy holy one[anointed one,king david anointed of god,like saul was annointed]to undergo decay[would be a little more here for a description of someone else instead tis talking about davids flesh,jesus not worried about his own flesh ,he came to die]thou hast made known to me the ways of life[david talks about learning the path of life through the law,and old testscrolls,not likely talkming about the ways of life to jesus because he is the life!!}thu will make me full of gladnss with thy presense[david needed this not jesus,jesus had gods presence and alwas knew he had it]then Acts2/29 thriugh 36 then goes on to say it was jesus who needed this coucil not david etccccccccThis is how i would look at this verse naturally as it is written....this seems natural .if no one knew any different i dont thik they would read into this...any way heres a random example[not a good one]of the way i read the prophesy and came up dry...it makes me sceptical of the apostle.adam
Back to Top
 
the shovel
Shackmeister
Shackmeister


Joined: Oct-01-01
Location: United States
Posts: 4187
Posted: Jan-05-02 at 9:17pm | IP Logged  

Okeedokee Adam,

I think you're reading too much into the prophecy that Peter was claiming to be fulfilled in Christ.  Here's how Peter was seeing it:

"Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. And so, because he was a prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE, he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY.  This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses."  Acts 2:29-32

Do you notice how Peter did not suggest any "fulfillment" other than what he spoke in the above verses?  You gotta figure that this was one of those much debated passages among the rabbis as to what in the world David may have been talking about when it got to the part of him not remaining in the grave ("abandoned to hades") and not decomposing.  If you want to talk about "over-spiritualizing" scripture, I can guarantee you that Israel's leaders had come up with some real stretches over this one.  It would have been a very familiar scripture among the Jews as I'm sure many of them argued over which rabbi's interpretation was the best.  I think the truth of the "mystery" simply came to Peter as he spoke.  The mystery that had stumped them for centuries was simply that David PROJECTED the promise onto himself since he knew that the resurrection of the Christ was to become his heritage.

Now the scripture that Peter quoted after this ("The Lord said unto my Lord...") was the same one Jesus used to totally confound the Pharisees (in Matthew 22:41-46) by presenting it as a puzzle. 

"What do you think about the Christ, whose son is he?"  The Pharisees said, "The son of David."  Jesus said to them, "Then how does David in the Spirit call him 'Lord' ...?"

Always look for the simplicity in any "fulfilled Scripture".

Jim  :)

Back to Top
 
Adam
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Dec-31-01
Location: United States
Posts: 124
Posted: Jan-08-02 at 1:56am | IP Logged  

Hey Jim looks like we got some new people here like me!Yes i am seenig the simplicity of what they are saying in these phrases however they seem "hoky".Hoky because it sounds like the apostle is saying that D avid is refering to C HRIST  NOT d AVID....UNLES YOU ARE SAYING THAT DAVIDS FLESH RESTED BECAUSE HE KNEW gOD WOULD NOT ABONDON HIM [him being david not jesus[]i almost wonder if the Christian law of believe this way because everybody does is blinding me to the simplicity in theses messianic versus...Adam
Back to Top
 
the shovel
Shackmeister
Shackmeister


Joined: Oct-01-01
Location: United States
Posts: 4187
Posted: Jan-09-02 at 6:27pm | IP Logged  

Quote: Originally posted by Adam on Tuesday, January 08, 2002
i almost wonder if the Christian law of believe this way because everybody does is blinding me to the simplicity in theses messianic versus...Adam

Adam, you may be on to something here as law usually hides instead of reveals.

I think you're mixing up the seeming inconsistency in what David wrote with Paul's insight into that ages-old controversy. 

Start with David.  His words came as a result of having the Spirit of God's presence upon him.  You know, such an influence can really mess up one's perception!    Everything he said was "true" ... and yet David's fleshly end contradicted the hope recorded in the words.  But what if it didn't contradict?  What if the meaning of the non-corruption of his flesh spoke of his TRUE end?  No, his true end was not the body that died and rotted, but it was the seed that came through him ... which is Christ.  David's resurrection is found in the one who was born through him.

Though the fleshly religious mind had speculated on how David could claim such an end, Peter was given insight into David's true hope ... for David's true hope was Christ's resurrection.  Realize this, there was only ONE life raised from the dead!!  Our life is not found in simply gaining a resurrection, but is found in being raised in HIM.

Jim 

Back to Top
 
Richard
Shackaholic
Shackaholic


Joined: Nov-11-01
Location: Canada
Posts: 733
Posted: Jan-09-02 at 6:43pm | IP Logged  

 

Our life is not found in simply gaining a resurrection, but is found in being raised in HIM.

More often than not the referring to God is, the God who was, or the God who will be. But what about the nasty now and now? The spin-doctor himself (Jesus) didn't refere to a far and distant event, He said, 'I Am the resurrection and the Life'!

Richard

Back to Top
 
Adam
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Dec-31-01
Location: United States
Posts: 124
Posted: Jan-10-02 at 3:36am | IP Logged  

dear Jim,you know that makes alot of sense.Especially if David is talking about  his "own" flesh resting in hope because he knew to look forward to the Christ.God would not abandon his soul[davids] to the grave because Christ would be raised up !I think the only problem i have is the next line were they try to capitolize HOLY ONE..as if this was meant to be some future event...doesnt anionted one or holy one one really refer  to david the annoited king of Gods chioce/?The context has no mention of another person and its a sentence within a paragraph spoken as if it fits right in with context of david.actsch.13 has quite a few references to scriptures that seem like they dont really relate to anything about Christ when you go back to there context.acts/1vs20...is really a couple of bad ones for me because if you cross refernce them they have no relationshipto the time in which they were saying it wqas fulfilled......The famous psalm from and about david is even reaally tough to try a spiritual future view...my God,my God why have you forsaken me.....it is much more likely to be referring to david if you read it...with no one on your case about what the apostels told it meant....can you glance at these referrences and tellme anything i could be missing through lack of insight...adam
Back to Top
 
the shovel
Shackmeister
Shackmeister


Joined: Oct-01-01
Location: United States
Posts: 4187
Posted: Jan-10-02 at 3:17pm | IP Logged  

My friend Adam,

I'm glad you asked about "HOLY ONE" because this is another one of those backwardly viewed concepts.  What I mean is that the most common views of "Holy One" is that it simply refers to Jesus, and so therefore, when we read it in the OT writings we just retrofit the meaning thinking to "update" the proper understanding.  Now, I have no problem with the truth that Jesus IS the Holy One, but as you are suggesting, the original statement IS referring to David as being God's "anointed", or "holy one".  When we retrofit such a concept as this we may think we are being more "doctrinally accurate" and are attributing more understanding to who Jesus is, but we only end up stunting the living connections.

Hey, I have had a lot of experience in the "stunted growth" department ... I think I am an expert in the field.  Considering that "X" is an unknown quantity, and "spurt" is a drip under pressure, I definitely qualify! 

It's very important to follow the experiential infusion of the reality of "anointing" and "holy" within the consciousness of God's people.  When God "chose" a person for something He infused His desire with an outward validation.  By having His chosen man declared by pouring oil on his head, the ritual became synonymous as being one and the same in the minds of the people.  The "anointing" became an unquestioned statement of truth so that whoever got slimed by oil could not be viewed as an ordinary man, but as "God's anointed".  This visualization of "God's" validation is so powerful that it has spread throughout the world to probably every society in some form or another.

This is the understanding behind the meaning of "holy" as well.  When some one or some thing was designated as belonging to God, then it was regarded in a totally new sense.  The "quality" of the person, place, or thing was not the determining factor in this regard, only that it had been declared by a visual statement that it now was the possession of God.  The word "holy" comes from a word that means "set apart".  The sense of this set-apart-ness was that which had been built into the minds of the people.  A man may have been some ordinary schmuck who was not at all popular, but all of a sudden there came to be a whole new identity put upon him.  And it made no difference if the "set apart" item was a gold plaque or even a dish rag, it was not considered "ordinary" from that moment on.  

All of this was embedded into the psyche of the "people of God" so that the one who was the embodiment of God's true desire and of man's true hope would be yearned after.  Something within the emptiness of man knows there is no satisfaction in that which is only a shadow of reality.  Outside of God's fulfillment our expectations never found what was lacking, but in the one who is the summing up of all things there is completion and satisfaction.

To realize that David referred to himself as being "God's anointed" or as God's "holy one" is only scratching the surface of the whole reality.  When Jesus was anointed he was declared to all Israel as the one who was the reality behind all the shadows and expectations of their whole existence.  It is now IN HIM that we understand that we are also COMPLETE because HE is our completeness.  We are fulfilled because HE is our fulfillment.  We are anointed because HIS Spirit is our anointing.  We are holy because HIS life has set us apart from the emptiness of our old existence and has made us alive toward God.

Now, my opinion on the whole scene in Acts 1 where they chose a replacement for Judas is that they were taking something upon themselves merely for the sake of "fixing" something that wasn't broken.  God had other plans, for His choice of Saul of Tarsus would be made years from that time.  Paul later referred to this choice to the Corinthians.  "...and last of all, as it were to one untimely born, He appeared to me also."  1 Cor 15:8.  It's rather odd that not one word was ever mentioned about Matthias (no, not Matthew) after their selection was made by tossing the dice.  It took Peter, James and John a few years before they really accepted Paul as one of their number.  So, I won't even try to vouch for Peter's use of the scripture to support their attempt.  And don't overlook the fact that this event took place before the Spirit was given to them.  I think they were really bumbling around before that reality took place!!  

As to the other references in Acts 13, you may want to reconsider them in view of the shadows and the reality.  There is no sense in which these "prophecies" are any less true about David himself just because Jesus is the summing up of all things ... including David.

Jim  

[edit]added missing "us"[/edit]



Edited by the shovel on Mar-05-11 at 8:07am


      

DIGGIN'THE LIFE!
Back to Top
 
Adam
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Dec-31-01
Location: United States
Posts: 124
Posted: Jan-10-02 at 5:39pm | IP Logged  

oh boy!Thats what i like!Something logical!Again it seems to go back to the common evangelistic rule of understanding and the punishment thereof.If we dont jump up and down when they [evangelistic thought] say something then we are "not of His fold"!If peter and the rest of the apostles can be wrong about attributing old test scripture to their current struggles then this opens up a wide cavern of questions regarding the new testament writtings in general.how much of their reactions,staements,declarations and spiritual conclusions can be counted on as accuratly divinly inspired?I mean men without the spirit can account for all of the gospels and most of acts[people of the story line]....ie..half of the new test!Even Jesus was recorded as doing the very thing peter did in acts bringing a 1 sentence phrase out of a story in the old testament to mean a prophesy is being filled at the present.Is the apostle who is recording it in error?Or the whole thing a problem...or? Jeez even Paul after recieving the spirit did it!All shadows aside,there is no verbage to indicate in the[old test] original verses to indicate ashadow but only a present reality..only we ,see the concepts themselves as a shadow now, in our time in retrospect...not to get you to go in that direction but to conclude logically...Why are Jesus and the apostles gulity of using the word fullfilled prophesy when at best the actuality is one of a shadow or type?[do you see the streeeeetch?]I s this more on the apostles or the shoulders of Jesus?Is it the people who wrote about it  at fault or the Lord?If you [or anybody]say the apostles then we have to begin to go down the line of "divinly inspired" mistakes if indeed there is such a thing! Do we give up and say :[well what are you goonaa belive]then i feel we fall short and dont really want to know whats real.Substance and reality are good things and if all i want to do is simply see things clearly so i can have a decent mental picture of what my heart wants to kniow then at least i know im not a beliver to just have a cruch in life or to feel good or a hobby ,but rather a real live faith that is sturdy and true!!!!!!No more of this ahhhww its all the same just swallow it all  whether it makes any sense or not!1CORINTH6:17[PAUL GETS IN ON THE RANDOM QUOTING]IS THIS ALL BIBLICAL SYMANTICS?.....LATER DUDE...ADAM
Back to Top
 
the shovel
Shackmeister
Shackmeister


Joined: Oct-01-01
Location: United States
Posts: 4187
Posted: Jan-10-02 at 6:30pm | IP Logged  

Adam,

<<< at least i know im not a beliver to just have a crutch in life or to feel good or a hobby ,but rather a real live faith that is sturdy and true!!!!! >>>

I am glad you are discovering that your faith is not found in the things you can figure out.  Of course, I think you are trying too hard to break away from the old bondage and are missing most of what I wrote.    

Now, I made that one comment about what I think was Peter's desire to get a jump on things in Acts 1, and somehow you saw a "wide cavern" instead of noticing how easily they could screw up before they received the Spirit (which happened in Acts 2).  Of course they could make a mess of things after that point (as told regarding Peter in Galatians 2), but I don't think any writings based in their foolishness made it into the compilation we know as the Bible.

Did the disciples miss the reality of Christ?  No doubt.  If you follow the accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John you will see one fleshly thing after another happening among them.  Without the Spirit they simply didn't understand what was going on right in front of their own eyes.  Even when the Spirit gave them a momentary insight (ie "You are the Christ, the son of the living God") it was not understood a moment later.  Jesus even made sure to point this out when it was seen for that moment.

It is this distinction of the receiving of the Spirit that is the only thing that made the difference between their own foolishness and the power of God they spoke after that time.

I don't question any validity to Jesus' claims of "fulfilled" scripture, or even that of the disciples after Acts 2, though I still will question the assumptions of the religious mindset regarding them.

Adam, I would rather see more of the excitement of this miraculous life I heard from you in our phone call last week!!  It was such a thrill for me to discover a side of you that just isn't showing through in these posts.  What do you think? 

Love,  Jim

Back to Top
 
Adam
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Dec-31-01
Location: United States
Posts: 124
Posted: Jan-10-02 at 11:16pm | IP Logged  

Dear Jim,i am sorry if i am comming across as a legalistic intending sceptic...its just that my mind can question an inconsistancy i see and i cant even keep up with it...i just dont wanna feel bad!Im not really questioning the fact that peter spoke of things before he had the Spirit..im just  seeing a clear obviuos inconsistancy or really just something farce and it hurts because i want to have credibility there instead.Unfortunatly i cant hang my hat on anythig right now,all i see is the lord and the dicples saying things untrue!It is excrutiating ,not fun for me[NOR DO I EMBRACE THE EGO TRIP THAT ONE WOULD GET FROM"CHALLENGING"] to conclude this!i have Him in my heart but my mind rejects Him because of these inconsistancies.wHAT A DRAG IT MUST BE FOR YOU TO THINK IM NOT GETTING WHAT YOU ARE SAYING,BUT IN REALITY I DO UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IM JUST ASKING MAYBE QUESTIONS THAT ARE REALLY DIFFICULT TO FOLLOW BECAUASE IM INADEQUIT IN EXPRESSING OVER THIS EMAIL WHAT IM TRULY STRUGGLING WITH BECAUSE I KNOW ONCE YOU SEE WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT THE INCONSISTANCY WILL STAND OUT LIKE A SORE THUMB!tHES DARN OLDTESTAMENT SCRIPTURES HAVE GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH FULFILLED PROPHESY HOW CAN NO ONE SEE THIS?THIS IS WERE I STOP LAUGHING AND CANT KEEP GOING WITH CHRISTIANIY.....YES ITS VERY IMPOTANT TO ME BECAUSE ITS THE LEGITAMACY OF MY FAITH ON THE LINE!i mean when Jesus says in  mark 14:27 that its afullfilled prophesy that[zech13,7]"i will strike the shepard and the sheep will be scattered"and you simply turn back to the old test to see this statemant then you are going to see:".......On that day every prophet will be ashamed of his prophetic vision.he will not put on a prophets garment  of hair in order to decieve.he will say,i am not a prophet.I am a farmer;the land has been my livelyhood since my youth.if somebody asks him,what are these wounds on yuor body?he will  answer,the wounds i was given at the house of my freinds. ....Awake O sword,against my sheperd,against the man who is close to me   declares the lord almighty.Strike the sheperd,and the sheep will be scattered,and i will turn my hand against the little ones.in the whole land declares the lord,two thirds will be struck down and perish;yet one third will be left in it.tHIS third i will bring into the fire;iwill refinr themlike silver and test them like gold.They will call on my name and i will anser them......what on earth we talkin about here is Jesus saying this zechariah book had any prophesies of His life?I trust your minds eye to be really accurate but yet im not willing to just say everythings fine with this claim....can you show me what you think the lord must of inteded here?i guess i could pick about a 100 things like this...but this is random...i think there are many stretches like this in the gospels and acts ...what do you think im very interested.....adam[sorry if i sound agressive,just intense  ]

Back to Top
 
the shovel
Shackmeister
Shackmeister


Joined: Oct-01-01
Location: United States
Posts: 4187
Posted: Jan-11-02 at 8:30am | IP Logged  

Hello Adam,
 
You are having difficulty with this whole concept of "fulfillment" because you keep insisting on a fortune-tellers explanation of what that means.  You can't see the fulfillments because your mind is stuck in a  "predictions" mentality.  Don't you see that's what you're looking for as you dig and dig for one example after another?  In other words, your problem with the claims of fulfillment is merely a straw man you've been building ... and that's why it doesn't seem to hold up to scrutiny.
 
You need to trash the whole confusing approach you learned through your religious upbringing.  Oh, I understand what it is you are trying to debunk, but you've got the wrong culprit.  You see, because our modern religious mindset has overlooked the miraculous work of Christ's Spirit we have resorted to establishing "proofs" by which we might convince unbelievers to become "Christians".  There have been many sermons and messages preached and books written on why it is "logical" and "rationale" to believe in Jesus because of all the "fulfilled prophecies".  We've got these "proofs" all sorted and listed, and hold them up against the intellectual attempts to "disprove" the Bible.
 
Have you ever stopped to consider WHY we started doing this in the first place?  This may come as a surprise, but it was not for the end result of convincing OTHERS to believe, but that we might simply convince OURSELVES to believe.  That's right, we compiled as many "proofs" as possible because we wanted to create a logical reason to believe this absurd message because we can't stand the sense of being fools for believing something that doesn't make sense to the world around us.  So, what we have done is to establish a mentality among our religious surroundings where it seems more logical to believe in Christ than to not believe in Him by suggesting that "we" have the more reasonable approach to life.
 
Forget the predictions-based view and simply examine the "fulfillment" HIMSELF.  After a while you may even begin to laugh at the whole confusing mess our modern "intellectual" religious society has made of the writings it has tried to force into our "more enlightened" understanding.
 
Jim 
Back to Top
 
Connie
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: Dec-03-01
Location: United States
Posts: 1559
Posted: Jan-11-02 at 10:40am | IP Logged  

Hey you guys,

All of these posts keep bringing that situation recorded in the Bible back to my memory:

John 5:39 "You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life.  These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life."

Jim, you write in your posts of a Person, and that's the key to all understanding, isn't it?

Religion forces us to put the cart (religion) before the Horse (Person).  No wonder we never get anywhere.  But when you put the Person first everything else starts moving along. And then you can actually just leave the cart behind.....

When I came to Christ, received of Him, learned of Him, it was always as a result of this personal relating to Him, in my own private times when I talked to Him.  But I was also a "company man" and would add to this personal exchange the institutional junk, thinking it was also the "way" the Lord worked.  It has taken the Lord many many many years to cause me to see the futility of the institutionalism and just drop it and finally once and for all trust that this personal thing we had going from the start was all He ever intended for me.  This was a very scary thing for me to do,  I actually thought I was going to leave God behind if I left the Institution behind.  I would hear His Spirit prompt me,  "I want to do something in YOU."  I kept interpreting this as my own wild, ego driven self demanding I go out and make another monument in the world that would glorify MY faith  (In other words, 'have a ministry') But all He was telling me was to leave the Institution behind!  Duh....

 Anyway, Jim, thanks for this forum!  If you weren't here constantly proclaiming the miraculous LIFE of Jesus, it  might have taken the Lord another 10 years to finally cause the light to go on. (although, as you make clear, that wouldn't really matter, huh?) As it is, though, hearing and seeing the Life in you all makes me to know He's really doing this work in me.....

And I can rest.....and learn of Him.....Matt. 11:28

Love you all,

Connie

Back to Top
 
Adam
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Dec-31-01
Location: United States
Posts: 124
Posted: Jan-11-02 at 12:29pm | IP Logged  

dear jim,man you do follow....im very thankful...and in return i do understand you as well.i  have no quams with admitting that i am trying to convince myself of something only out of what i only understand as lack.When you talked about it being a logical gospel for people..to somehow reveal their irrational mindset so as not to believe, i can certainly see this in life too!i have one very close freind who is one of those logical type promoters....and you will see many many books about it...Unfortunatly now that ive been exposed to the inconsistancy or at least my perception of the inconsistancies i cannot seem to retreat.its like getting a swipe of permanent ink on your eye you cant get it out,yet you dont like it there and have to experience the pain and frustration it causes while its there...but it doesnt just go away...its like somreone telling you the sky is red and you trust their oppinion yet really know the sky is blue in reality and you sit there like this:!!!!!i want ot go on to better things but all isee is new test people claiming prophesis to be fullfilled that were never prophesy[im bent and i know it]at least if you cant see the inconsitancy ofthese claims then tell my how iam logically sopposed to step away from my own eyeball?...appriciate ya...Adam
Back to Top
 
Connie
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: Dec-03-01
Location: United States
Posts: 1559
Posted: Jan-11-02 at 12:49pm | IP Logged  

Dear Adam,

Hi, this is Connie again. 

Brother, please be encouraged!  You are on the right track although you may think you are not.  (or may wonder if you are)

The Life of Jesus is in you, working, and all the struggles and the questioning etc. that I seem to hear in your posts is very familiar to me, as I have recently gone through this very thing (and am continuing to do so).  God is working, believe me, and there will be a time when all of these things will start to make sense to you.  It's hard to explain it.... but, hang on........

Seek only Jesus, the loving Person Who is your only hope.  He's desiring you and you alone.  It's personal between Him and you.  "cast all your care on Him for He cares for you".  I know that may sound trite, but it's the simplicity of it that will result in peace and joy.  And that is all I can say....Once again, be encouraged!

In Him,

Connie

Back to Top
 
Adam
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Dec-31-01
Location: United States
Posts: 124
Posted: Jan-11-02 at 9:01pm | IP Logged  

thanx Connie
Back to Top
 
Adam
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Dec-31-01
Location: United States
Posts: 124
Posted: Jan-12-02 at 1:07am | IP Logged  

Hey Mr Dig!"when Israel was a child,I loved him,and out of Egypt[Isreal in bondage]I called my son[Israel],But the more I called Isreal[or my son]the further they went from me"/ok heres an example of how the new testament writters would say this refers to Jesus Christ.Am i using the tools of the" mindset of today"to see right here?Are you maybye saying that the apostles were never even claiming these to be fullfilled in a prophetic way in the first place?[as we understand prophesy]is what im seeing the apostles saying, not what they were saying in the first place regarding those old test passages?Are they doing more of an object lesson?I guess that would settle better than a claim of direct fullflied prophesy.Is it more of an example they are giving?I guess when i read it seems like the opera is playing in the backround and the symbols are banging and the goose bumps are shivering and wham comes :'thus saith the LORD..."like all should know this is fulfilled prophetic forsight being suddenly fufilled"in your hearing" Hey somebodyorder a  round of  deep heating rub and an aspirin for Jimmy!Hope ya feel a little better...Adam

Back to Top
 
the shovel
Shackmeister
Shackmeister


Joined: Oct-01-01
Location: United States
Posts: 4187
Posted: Jan-12-02 at 7:31am | IP Logged  

Hello all ...

I'm including this post because Adam's above question is based upon some communication from yesterday that was not posted here on the Shack.  And since I don't want to have to rewrite many of these thoughts all over again in another post, the copy and paste method will take care of all that!!    BTW, Adam's post's are in green, mine are in blue.


 hey jim...i am feeling like you are saying to forget the actual inconsistancy..and just believe in the resurection,then you will automatically have to let go of the discrepancies because of an irrational faith...in its place ,To me this is no different than what the religous mindset is trying to say to get you to just foolow along..now im not angry with you im just frustrated with the common idea presented to me:"just believe in the miraculous and the inconsistancies wont bother your concience anymore because you wont want ot look at themanymore"/to me that is a pretty David Koresh way of looking at things...and irealize i have picked up some prove it mindsets from religion and it helps that you do understand this but....can you see were im coming from..my home slice?later homey....Adam [homey is a slang term of affection often used by the african american culture..hehe ha ha]

************************************

Homey  :)  ... hey, you're talking to a guy who happens to be currently "in" as far as the new 2002 standards of "What's in, what's out".  haha!  I'm referring to a CNN broadcast where they stated that the practice of the "knuckle-shake" is "in" this year.  That's the handshake where you strike fists first up, then down, then dead on in a knuckle rap.  haha!  At my Home Depot, where I work, I have gotten the reputation for having the "bro" handshakes down as good or better than those who showed me how to do 'em.  :)

Okay, my response ...

<<< hey jim...i am feeling like you are saying to forget the actual inconsistancy >>>

No, that is not at all what I'm saying.  I'm suggesting that these "inconsistencies" are the screwed up by-products of the fleshly wisdom found in the religious mindset you are trying to combat by a radically difference religious mindset of your own making formed by your attempt to disprove it.  hahaha!  Did I confuse you yet?

Let me give you a mental picture to convey how I see this.  I see you standing under the pooh-pooh tree asking me if I think you should stop examining the apples hanging off the branches ... only they ain't apples.  Maybe, "road apples"!!  hehehe!

The "inconsistencies" are merely the failures of the fleshly assumptions that have turned OT "scriptures" into a holy version of the "National Enquirer" with all its future predictions.  You are suffering under the delusion that by using the same bullshit approach to the "scriptures" that has been used by the dead religious mind that you can actually understand those ancient writings enough to make assumptions that will fit with our current delusionary interpretations.  haha!  I'm sure I'm really confusing you now!!!

Let me give you a Biblical example that continually proves to me how far off my religiously learned assumptions are.  Do you remember when King Herod called the chief priests and scribes together and asked them where the Christ was to be born (Matthew 2:1-12)?  They came up with the correct answer found in the writings of the prophet Micah.  Now, when we examine the simple statement in this connection it makes sense.  But if we take the whole context into account we might wonder how they even came to their conclusion.  What's my point?  Simple, it made sense to THEM.  The same holds true with the other stated fulfillments where the religious leaders were steaming mad at the very suggestion that Jesus was said to have "fulfilled" them.

Consider something.  You referred to me as "homey" ... and then made sure to explain that it is a slang term of affection.  Why did you feel the need to tell me that?  Was it to make sure that I didn't take it the wrong way?  Who knows, maybe you thought I might think you were calling me a "homo" and you didn't want to insult me.  Either way, a difference in culture within our own time frame can give us a totally wrong idea of what is being communicated.  Could you imagine how confusing it would be to try to understand the African American culture from even 100 years ago without taking their own understanding into account?  Okay, then, forget the easier African American culture (because at least they're American!) and then take into consideration that we are talking about an ancient foreign culture who we assume to have a better understanding of simply because we have some of their writings "perfectly" translated into our own language.  What's the MOST confusing aspect of the whole thing?  I think its' the fact that we have ASSUMED that we understand their viewpoints and use of communication.

Forget trying to figure out what it means to YOU, and consider instead why THEY would have been expecting a "fulfillment" that, once seen, satisfied THEIR expectations.  Are you following me here?  Now, if you write me back with another inconsistency based upon our 21st century religious American church misconceptions I'm going to assume that you are NOT following what I have said here, okay?  I don't write this in a harsh manner, but merely in a factual realization that you are not following me.  :)

You see, once you realize that Christ IS the fulfillment of all those "scriptures" then you will also be forced into considering the ancient foreign mindset upon which they were considered in ancient times.  This doesn't mean that you will understand it all, but you sure will have fun laughing at the intellectual and religious assumptions we've been trying to squeeze them into.  Now, if you still want to squeeze them apples you might want to make sure you're standing under the right apple tree.  hehe!!  :)

Adam, I want you to know that I value your openness, but that mostly I value the reality of the real you that I immediately connected with!

Jim

**************************

hey Homey,now i know that you understand me  ....to me i feel you are simply saying that we need to look at the old messianinc prophesies as "they "would understand them,that isif we are going to ponder them in the first place?Is that really all your saying?It seems that is what you ar3e saying in essence.It is like going with one of the many premises you can choose to explain the percieved inconsistancies we see:1]the ole' see things from "there culture" idea,[2 or the ole'type" philosophy,3]or the good ole faithful "bad  translation" theory.....it seems to me youve got to pick one of those to premises to come to an oppinion about why they look very much like farces.Anyway,yes i was alittle afraid youd take my homie comment wrong!i like you and value our conversation...as well as all im learning from you and the Spirit of God and i wouldnt want ot scare you away from me !Im not battling you ,just a concept!Love Adam


2nd email/Hey Jim!here is another email to dove tail my last one[a fairly large dove tail]I am starting to percieve myself less as a legalist and more as a sceptical or critical thinking person...im not sure i have a real bend towrd the law persae but then again maybe i dont see it .Again i like you...you da man!I like the correction please let me have it if needed...as long as i know you understand me before you blast me.[and i think you do]And not that you "blast" me either but if im missing it iwant to understand why?when you say that we have to believe "it made sense to them"i wonder about that ,because to lots of people im sure it made no sense at all and i wonder if the "legalistic were more offended by the fact they[the apostles] were twisting scripture than they were scared of loosing there positions?[pharisees]i too would be mad not because im a pharisee but because i feel ripped off by something i thought was true and real!Youre saying that it made sense to them and that the apostles werent "hyped up","lying",or telling a story[which i hear was abig part of there heritage]And yet it would fit well that they were because of the fact they were the"simpl","uneducated","poor"people in life who didnt really know the scriptures probably as well as those who had direct accewss to them like a pharisee...it could be a story to attempt to fit Jesusinto it[the old test]and looks exactly like it , as is.if you think this way...than you dont have to do any s tretching  any blind leap but unfortunatly there is no feeling good anymore...just an honesty about "our version" of the scriptures.are you saying we just cant know the real code to old test prohpesies that the very apostles themselves claimed that, if He wasnt that person from the old then he was nobody at all?Or would you agasin just say:"GO BACK TO THE RESURECTION"which seems to be the habit of most to just say this so i wont ask ,or question obvoius inconsistancies.Because if you believe jesus raised then you must brleive hes gods guy,and if hes gods guy then you cant question him or his word just accept it...is my problem im just not looking for the miraculous?IS it to dry for evryone else?Agian i may have absolutely pissed you off by my email,but i hope i didnt i just have an endles fountain of conclusion rolling around in my brain..and you for sure dont think i understand you now!Would you believe me if i said God bless you ?...Adam

**************************
Hello Adam,

<<< when you say that we have to believe "it made sense to them"i wonder about that ,because to lots of people im sure it made no sense at all >>>

Keep in mind that even though the religious leaders recognized the prophetic sense of the OT scriptures with their doubled meanings they still missed the one it testified of.  So don't read too much into that comment about what it was that made sense.  Actually, this was the "stumbling block" to Israel, because of all the things they could have figured out if pushed to it, the one reality that didn't fit their expectations was the unexpectedness of the "expected" one.

<<< and i wonder if the "legalistic were more offended by the fact they[the apostles] were twisting scripture than they were scared of loosing there positions? >>>

Of course they were offended by MANY things, and I'm sure they questioned everything that either Jesus (or the apostles later) said.  But if you read all the accounts of the run-ins you'll begin to see that they were offended primarily with Jesus himself.  Their falseness was exposed by his very presence ... and definitely by his words.  The fact that their arguments lost their usual effectiveness by a few statements from Jesus must have been extremely embarrassing.  Their accusations regarding Jesus and the "scriptures" stood upon a premise that Jesus didn't believe Moses (the Law) as they did.  Strangely enough, the thing that did them in was their inability to answer his questions about the Law.  He stumped them, not by some hidden meanings or obscure scriptures, but in the stuff they had quoted ... and supposedly believed, their whole lives.  I encourage you to re-read those accounts and notice their comments and reactions to Jesus.  They were offended in HIM way beyond any offense seen in his "viewpoints".  They were offended that he spoke as if he really KNEW God.  They were offended that he dared to call God his own father (something Jews did not claim).  They were offended that he did "good".  They were offended that he knew what they were all about.  They were offended that he saw right through their games.  They were offended that they could not be like him in many ways, because you can be sure they wished they could speak with "authority" and have the power to do what he did.  But they were offended by him because he was also so weak.

<<< And yet it would fit well that they were (hyped up or lying) because of the fact they were the"simple","uneducated","poor"people in life who didnt really know the scriptures probably as well as those who had direct access to them like a pharisee >>>

You know, I think this fact pissed the religious leaders off the most about the disciples.  "Knoweth not letters" is a phrase I remember being used against either Jesus or the apostles.  This was very offensive to them.  Why?  Because even though they had not received an education they were able to speak boldly about the true God, which is something they had never done.  Remember the blind man in John 9 who was given sight by Jesus?  While in the midst of a cross-examination by the Pharisess the realization came to him that their one desire to disprove Jesus was the most obvious statement against them.  He said, "Well, here is an amazing thing, that you do not know where he is from, and yet he opened my eyes."  Funny thing was that as soon as this man's new-found realizations backed them into a corner with no way to get out (rather incredible for a man who couldn't see until that day) they turned on him and made his rejection official.

That's the amazing thing about those who speak God's freedom, they're actually a bunch of ignorant folks who confound the wise.  You and I?  We're the "nothings" of this world who somehow speak with a power unknown to all the religious learning in any "spiritual" center.  And I don't have to tell you why ... you already know that.  :)

Jim

Back to Top
 
the shovel
Shackmeister
Shackmeister


Joined: Oct-01-01
Location: United States
Posts: 4187
Posted: Jan-12-02 at 9:26am | IP Logged  

Yo, Homey!

Has someone ever told you that you were just like your father ... or mother ... or another?  How did you receive their claim?  Did you argue the point by describing all the ways you were unlike that person (forget those stupid teenaged years where you argued everything, of course!  haha)?  Or did you automatically pick up their meaning?  I would be out in the yard working my butt off and my grandmother would say, "You're just like your daddy!".  I knew what she referred to, and I didn't sense any contradictions based on the fact that my dad was much older than me, married (to my mother, no less), looked different than me (I took after mom), BIG, went to work each day, etc.  The statement simply fit within the embedded awareness I had that my father was a hard working man who did a lot of yard work on the weekends.

Israel had a long, long history where, little by little (sometimes gobs at a time), God embedded the sense of Himself into their very beings.  It wasn't merely a conscious awareness, for it mostly went much deeper ... way beyond what they could even begin to explain.  How did God do this?  Through every way imaginable!

He spoke of the relationship between them as father and son, or even husband and wife ... and yet they were so painfully aware of the incompleteness of such a connection.  Now, one might argue the contradiction of having BOTH relationships with the same parties, but it was merely stated to be so by God ... and they took it into their memories.

There were also multitudes of sacrifices and other rituals that presented shadows of something substantial ... for those continually repeated sacrifices didn't really satisfy, they only made the need for the real thing more and more intense!

They were given laws and rules and principles by which to govern themselves.  Once again, these statutes only made their need for fulfillment painfully obvious.  And yet, what were they to do but simply go through the motions of a life that became a vicious cycle.

They had been given songs to sing which became merely dry repetitions of a hope that seemed unattainable.

Every child grew up learning these things so that they became as routine as our own "A,B,C's", "1,2,3's", "1+1=2", and "I pledge allegiance to the flag ...." (for us Americans who learned it that is).  Now, imagine knowing these things, but not being able to read and write, not even understanding what those numbers mean, or how to add and subtract, or not having the faintest idea what the "Pledge of Allegiance" means!  Whoa, wait a minute ... maybe we don't have to imagine too hard!!  doh!!

What I'm telling you is that God had prepped this whole society with a "shadow reality" embedded into the the things they had grown up as they learned to quote and memorize and perform ceremonies and rituals and sing the same old songs and routinely visit the "holy places" and hear the "prophecies" that were so "unfilled" though they may have assumed that the men of old had supposedly "fulfilled" them.  The fact is that the religious leadership had been so intertwined with the political arenas of their contemporaries that they were imagining a messiah that would be born who would come and crush their enemies.  They had totally pushed out the true justice, mercy and compassion that was embedded into their historical upbringing ... but the downcast losers of the day (the majority of the people) were anxiously hoping for those things.

Regarding your question about "out of Egypt I called My son", I think you're straining too hard and overlooking the simplicity of it.  You see, it was the connection "the prophet" would have with Moses that was unfulfilled in everything they had experienced.  For Moses said, "The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like ME from among you, from your own countrymen, you shall listen to HIM." Deut 18:15.  Though MANY prophets had been raised up from among the people there was still that unanimous sense that none had really fit the bill.  Remember the question they asked John the baptist ... "Are you 'the Prophet'?".  They KNEW that the one Moses referred to hadn't yet come.

See that little phrase, "out of Egypt I called My son"?  It seems like such an insignificant thing, but the built-in relational aspect would have jumped out to any Jew who KNEW that through the prophet Moses Israel had been called out of Egypt ... and "the prophet" was to be "like Moses".  Not only that, but "the prophet" mirrored many of the historical highlights of Israel.  You see, "the prophet" wasn't one who would not understand their pain and suffering, but would be FAMILIAR with it so that he would UNDERSTAND their weaknesses and failures.

THIS is the stuff they understood in the "fulfillments".  They would even consider going back and technically dissecting each and every word to see if "the prophet" had fulfilled it to a "T".  Why not?  Because they already knew how those scriptures fit into their own history and long-dead prophets and kings and wars and conquests and failures, etc, etc.  The real fulfillments to come were not detailed predictions needing to come to pass, but instead they were the SUBSTANCE OF REALITY that had NEVER come to pass in all the so-called "fulfillments" during their long history.  It was the "like Dad" expectations that were "fulfilled" in Christ.  For those who had their emptiness filled by the life of God's Spirit these "fulfillments" FINALLY made sense because for the first time there was a prophet who did not fail in completing the will of God.

Jim

Back to Top
 
Ashton
Digger
Digger


Joined: Dec-06-01
Posts: 56
Posted: Jan-12-02 at 12:31pm | IP Logged  

Hi Adam -  I have been reading along and I am wondering if you have ever read anything by CS Lewis - he was a fantastic Christian apologist - the book "Mere Christianity" is excellent for stretching the mind around all the basic types of questions that people ask about the validity of what Jesus and the disciples said about him.  This is not to discount Jim - he is great too. The tremendous stirrings in you are proof that there is something to Jesus' claim that he is the son of God - the Holy Spirit is at work bringing you into a revelation of truth.  Be encouraged that if you truly want to know the truth you will know the truth.
Back to Top
 
Adam
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Dec-31-01
Location: United States
Posts: 124
Posted: Jan-12-02 at 2:23pm | IP Logged  

Ashton i really liked that .Thankyou and yes iam very familiar with CS Lewis.Please join in if you have thoughts!
Back to Top
 
Adam
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Dec-31-01
Location: United States
Posts: 124
Posted: Jan-12-02 at 3:40pm | IP Logged  

Jim,so is" fufillment" more along the lines of "better" or "more perfect"?Is Jesus saying :'YOU KNOW ALL THOSE OLD CONCEPTS,I AM THE TRUE REPRESENTATIVE"?Is He saying this more than He is quoting fullfilled prediction?I mean how do you get around stating"this was written of me"without taking a prophetic expectation..well i guess it is as you say in the hearers minds is what is important.But then why would He get so detailed about  a donkey tied up and an entry into the temple so as to look like H is fullfilling a specific "detailed"picture.Is Paul and the rest of the new test writters attempting the same strategy?I am of course familiar with the warring politcal mind and the religious concept intertwined,ive heard this point of view before......and some others....[even the idea that they had no punctuation therefore ,they couldnt seperate the reinig Christ from the suffering Christ]       I guess i can see your point when i look at the anology Jesus used of Jonah in  the whale He was almost implying this was like Himself  but not a "literal"fufillment of something prophesied.I guess i want more of a helicopter view so i can put these things together to draw a conclusion.It seems like now ive got Jesus and His analogies that are similiar to old test stories...but also a mixture of prohpesy,and then a little object lesson from the apostles ...unfortunatly i think the mixture of the concepts[or my perception]is what is bothering me!To have just one be true would bring validity to all...but to have it spread in 3,4,5 different directions seems to ruin the whole lump!Adam
Back to Top
 
the shovel
Shackmeister
Shackmeister


Joined: Oct-01-01
Location: United States
Posts: 4187
Posted: Jan-12-02 at 6:02pm | IP Logged  

I guess i want more of a helicopter view so i can put these things together to draw a conclusion.It seems like now ive got Jesus and His analogies that are similiar to old test stories...but also a mixture of prohpesy,and then a little object lesson from the apostles ...unfortunatly i think the mixture of the concepts[or my perception]is what is bothering me!To have just one be true would bring validity to all...but to have it spread in 3,4,5 different directions seems to ruin the whole lump!Adam

Hey, this is what I call "splitting the Adam"!!  hahahahaha!   hehehehe!  hohohohoho! 

Well, bro, unless you let it all find its explanation in Christ you're going to set off a chain reaction and go "boom!".  No, I don't suggest this as if to say you gotta ignore what's written, but to see it clearly.  The fact is that it was ALL written of HIM as being the REALITY behind all the shadows.  That's how Jonah and the big fish (not whale, by the way) was a "sign" of his death, burial and resurrection without any need for the big fish.  That's also how there could be a detailed bit about riding on the donkey.  Of course, I'm wondering if they expected the whole "donkey" prophecy to be fulfilled in a "spiritual" sense, since it might have seemed too humbling for their king to come riding into town on a jackass.  Just a thought in view of the upside down way God's thoughts are evaluated by man.

You want another thought added to the confusion?  All of Christ's fulfillments are also OUR fulfillments ... for it has been all fulfilled in US.  hahaha! 

Love, Jim ... aka "homey".

Back to Top
 
Adam
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Dec-31-01
Location: United States
Posts: 124
Posted: Jan-12-02 at 7:42pm | IP Logged  

looks like old testament became whole stories that represented Christ....but i got the impression tat it was direct prophesy...not as GENERAL.
Back to Top
 
Ashton
Digger
Digger


Joined: Dec-06-01
Posts: 56
Posted: Jan-13-02 at 3:24pm | IP Logged  

Hi Adam ----just a thought to add to all this ---- Take a look at the scripture Isaiah 61:1 "The Spirit  of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath sent me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath anointed me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound."   Christ said that this scripture was fulfilled in him - he closed the book.  Well look closely - we can also say that this scripture is fulfilled in us - isn't that our calling to preach the good news?  I think we get thrown for a loop when we try to preach the gospel to everyone -  the scripture says to the "meek"  - the meek are ready - prepared by the Lord and will recieve without a lot of song and dance.  Unless the Lord has prepared someone to hear all you get is arguments and irrelevent questionings that just go round and round.  Someone who really wants to know the truth will hear it and be uplifted and edified.  So be glad - the Spirit of the Lord is upon you - go forth and proclaim the liberty that you have in Christ.
Back to Top
 
the shovel
Shackmeister
Shackmeister


Joined: Oct-01-01
Location: United States
Posts: 4187
Posted: Jan-13-02 at 4:21pm | IP Logged  

<<< Christ said that this scripture was fulfilled in him - he closed the book.  Well look closely - we can also say that this scripture is fulfilled in us - isn't that our calling to preach the good news?  >>>

Ashton, thanks for your insights and encouragements in your posts, bro!! 

Jim 

Back to Top
 
Adam
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Dec-31-01
Location: United States
Posts: 124
Posted: Jan-17-02 at 10:54pm | IP Logged  

Hey Jimmy!Scroll on down here in afew days and give me an example here on how to view a "prophetic"old test passage.Imean break it down and use the Life to explain...[nudge,wink] SCEP      NO HURRY JUST PICK ONE BUDDY...NUDGE ,WINK,NUDGE
Back to Top
 
the shovel
Shackmeister
Shackmeister


Joined: Oct-01-01
Location: United States
Posts: 4187
Posted: Jan-20-02 at 8:27pm | IP Logged  

Quote: Originally posted by Adam on 1/17/2002
Hey Jimmy!Scroll on down here in afew days and give me an example here on how to view a "prophetic"old test passage.Imean break it down and use the Life to explain...[nudge,wink] SCEP      NO HURRY JUST PICK ONE BUDDY...NUDGE ,WINK,NUDGE

Adam, my brother.  I did find your comments way down here, and I'm not ignoring it, I'm just a little behind.  You've probably noticed that you haven't even seen a Shoveletter from me in 3 weeks.   

On a brighter note, I got a new computer system on this end.  I think I have pushed the laptop I got four years ago way too hard, and was afraid I would burn it out.  It is way too valuable to lose it since it is portable.  I may be able to use it for quite a while now that it's not my primary computer. 

I will get to you on this ASAP.  You may need to remind later this week, okay? 

Jim

Back to Top
 
Adam
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Dec-31-01
Location: United States
Posts: 124
Posted: Jan-21-02 at 1:38am | IP Logged  

i CAN DIG IT.
Back to Top
 
luvin
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: May-20-02
Location: United States
Posts: 5235
Posted: Jun-26-02 at 12:38am | IP Logged  

REMEMBER THESE DAYS?

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
Back to Top
 
Guest
Guest
Guest


Joined: Oct-01-03
Posts: 36
Posted: Jun-26-02 at 11:45am | IP Logged  

Adam!

It took me reading about a third of the way down to realize these were old posts. I even copied and emailed that article by Richard's friend to some folks this morning, thinking it was new!

Thinking that these were new posts, I'm thinking... "What, has Adam gone back to those confusing times again?" I finally got your point here at the bottom.

Yeah, those were those days, when you and many of us were a bit more blinded by the Light. But my, how we've grown!

I can dig it, bro'!!

Love ya, dude,


Dave A


Back to Top
 
Alan
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Nov-30-01
Location: United States
Posts: 146
Posted: Jun-26-02 at 3:48pm | IP Logged  

"It took me reading about a third of the way down to realize these were old posts." (Dave)

_____________________________________________________________________

Ditto man!  I was thinking, "What the hell is Adam thinking?"  "I remember when Adam first came on the shack last year and was asking the same stuff...!  Did he fall and hit his head?" "Why is Jim so talkitive all of a sudden?" 

You had me going dude!

Alan

Back to Top
 
Sherri
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Dec-30-01
Location: United States
Posts: 340
Posted: Jun-26-02 at 4:59pm | IP Logged  

Hey!!  I got sucked into this, too!!  I started all the way at the top thinking it was a new thread without even looking at the date!  As I was reading, I thought maybe Adam hit his head and he had amnesia.    

Before I scrolled down to the bottom I was asking Jim how in the world did I get to this old thread when I thought I was on a recent thread?  I thought the computer was playing games on me!! 

I looked up and finally saw a date and lo and behold, I kept scrolling and discovered that I was reading stuff that sounded like dejavu for a legitimate reason!! 

Alan, I was thinking the same thing about Jim!  I thought it was great to have him 'back' in the Shack with such a gusto!!  giggle

Funny, Adam!!  You ol' trickster you!!     (just kiddin')

Back to Top
 
mcdave
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: Dec-25-01
Location: United States
Posts: 1809
Posted: Jun-26-02 at 6:02pm | IP Logged  

Quote: Originally posted by Dave Aldrich on 6/26/02


Adam!

It took me reading about a third of the way down to realize these were old posts. I even copied and emailed that article by Richard's friend to some folks this morning, thinking it was new!

ditto.maybe the older threads could have "shovel classic"pasted on them after a month or two.

btw...how's the weather down there in fla?we are about 90% sure we are coming down after the 4th.not too hot i hope,we minnesotans like it cool



      

     It's not works,it's coffee.
   

Back to Top
 

 



the shovel home page