Surfing on life banner
The ShovelShack Archives
Between January 2002 and December 2011, almost 46,000 posts were created by members of the Shovel Shack discussion group.
In 2012, the Shovel Shack moved to a new home: shovelshack.org. Shovelshack.net will be kept intact as an archive for those amazing discussions.

Browse a bit and then join us at ShovelShack.org

Ministry/Church Related
 Shovel Shack : Ministry/Church Related
Subject Topic: Anti-IC?
Author
Message << Prev Topic | Next Topic >>
Broken Link
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: Mar-11-02
Location: United States
Posts: 2513
Posted: Aug-15-05 at 6:53pm | IP Logged  

Are you against the IC? Why or why not? Do you feel the IC can be "brought around" to what the biblical church "was meant to be", as many of the house churches and emergent churches believe?

      

Bill
theHarryTick™
heretic - n 1: a person who holds beliefs in conflict with the dogma of the church.
Back to Top
 
Joyce
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: Mar-14-02
Location: United States
Posts: 1939
Posted: Aug-15-05 at 10:24pm | IP Logged  

Well, I would have to say that I have an undeniable, unregrettable, horrendously antagonistic aversion for the "SYSTEM" that is in control in it.... that I see as the causitive problem of it, that controls and deceives.  I also have dear sisters and brothers in the midst of it and love them still.  I see them (and myself before I left) as the victims of the deception.

As far as being brought around, I don't ever see that happening.  It seems to be efforts in futility with regard (again) to the system... but not to the Loved ones in the midst of it who God may be priming, as He did me, to hear the call out... or to give insight and understanding while remaining in it. 

With regard to home churches, that's a mixed bag in my opinion.  I've seen the ones I know eventually succumb to the institutional mentality in one form or another and then it was never what it could have been.  I suppose there are some that are a bird of a different feather, but I just haven't experienced them.  

As for me,  I come home and get on line and type in "theshovel.net"   

Joyce

Back to Top
 
dave
Shackaholic
Shackaholic


Joined: Jul-07-05
Posts: 661
Posted: Aug-15-05 at 10:28pm | IP Logged  

I'm against the system....which is nothing but the works of the flesh disguised as being something spiritual.  However, the people are what makes up the ic and they need deliverance so that they too can enjoy freedom. 
Back to Top
 
~will
Digger
Digger


Joined: Jul-28-05
Posts: 39
Posted: Aug-16-05 at 4:15am | IP Logged  

dave,

who says that the people in the ic need deliverance? Maybe they are
enjoying the freedom where they are at. Where the Spirit of the
Lord is there is liberty. What do you think?

Saying that, it doesn't mean that I agree with the structure of the ic.
As I said in an earlier thread, I believe that we can be too hard on
the people who attend the ic. Just because we don't see or
experience freedom in the ic, means that we can say that nobody
else does or can.

I have oftened wondered if I should make it a mission to "bring the
truth" to the ic, but i now see all I have to do is just live and see
Christ in the people.

I am not necessarily again the IC, because that would be to against
our fellow brothers and sisters. Again, I believe, where the Spirit of
the Lord is THERE IS LIBERTY! Freedom is everywhere Christ is, it's
just seeing past the "I" in the "IC".

Definately a great question Bill! I can't wait to see what everyone
else writes!



      

~will

"COME to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden and I will GIVE you REST..."
Back to Top
 
Joyce
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: Mar-14-02
Location: United States
Posts: 1939
Posted: Aug-16-05 at 12:52pm | IP Logged  

Will (and others),

I guess I don't see being against the IC as being against the people in the IC.  I have come to what seems to me to be an eye opening that it is a SYSTEM or MACHINE (that seems to be inanimate).  What it is I don't define because of not knowing for sure and having gotten out of the habit of seeing a demon under every bush.... I just dont' go there anymore.  But this "whatever it is"  IS NOT the PEOPLE that are in the system.  I believe that even the highest leader of the biggest mega is unaware that he himself is really a pon in the hands of a system that does control absolutely and has those under it deceived.  I do not consider saying that someone that is deceived as talking badly about them, because it is a deception, and one that I had joined them in for many years. 

As I have shared on other threads, I am now (after thinking absolutely no way again) in a Sunday morning singles discussion group, a format that I can tolerate.  I did not go there as a missions trip.  I went there because of an invitation which I ignored, but then couldn't anymore and so believe for this time that is where He has me.  They do other various activities and so it may be that it is for me to just have additional fellowship and fun with those who are brothers and sisters.  If He happens to say something through me in the discussions, then that is up to Him.  If He has someone hear what He says through me, then that is up to Him.  Otherwise it is just a day at a time... sometimes a second of time that I can live by knowing that only He knows all and what it is all about.  Just my thinking at this point... 

Joyce

ps  as far as liberty, yes it is connection with Christ and we have that in Him, but it can be hindered and I experienced that too in the IC.  I didn't even know what true liberty was until I came out.

Back to Top
 
graceman
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Sep-17-02
Location: United States
Posts: 455
Posted: Aug-16-05 at 1:47pm | IP Logged  

I'm not against the IC...they have the best potlucks this side of Old Country Buffet!

 

"Freedom is everywhere Christ is."  Brother Will...'splain to me then the ongoing, systematic bondage that pervades the church...uh, did I say something...bad?

Back to Top
 
~will
Digger
Digger


Joined: Jul-28-05
Posts: 39
Posted: Aug-16-05 at 2:48pm | IP Logged  

graceman,

lol, i don't feel like you said something bad. i already explained
that i agreed that the system CAN bring bondage, however, i said
that just because people like ourselves don't find freedom there
does NOT mean that everyone that attends the IC is in bondage. Do
you not agree that freedom is everywhere Jesus is? I just think that
we can paint the church with too broad of a brush, and in essence
become the thing we don't like. I just feel that there is an overall
lack of love when we discuss the ic. I strongly feel that to put down
the ic is to put down the people. I don't believe that we can
seperate the ic from the individual person, for without the person,
there would be no ic. Joyce has disagreed with me and thats great.
I'm not expecting everyone to agree with me.

Again I believe that Christ is there, and where he is, there is
freedom.


      

~will

"COME to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden and I will GIVE you REST..."
Back to Top
 
the shovel
Shackmeister
Shackmeister


Joined: Oct-01-01
Location: United States
Posts: 4187
Posted: Aug-16-05 at 3:39pm | IP Logged  

~will wrote:

...just because people like ourselves don't find freedom there does NOT mean that everyone that attends the IC is in bondage.


~will, I couldn't agree more! My own awareness of freedom, as well as that of others, was radically intensified in the midst of a system that wants to destroy it.  :)

Jim


      

DIGGIN'THE LIFE!
Back to Top
 
Richard
Shackaholic
Shackaholic


Joined: Nov-11-01
Location: Canada
Posts: 733
Posted: Aug-16-05 at 3:52pm | IP Logged  

Joyce wrote:

ps  as far as liberty, yes it is connection with Christ and we have that in Him, but it can be hindered and I experienced that too in the IC.  I didn't even know what true liberty was until I came out.


Joyce,

I loved what you shared here, thank you.

Maybe just one of the things that is becoming most real to many is how the holy spirit is making known to us Who and what our Liberty is~Christ Jesus alone.
How many times is 'liberty' defined as being able to do your power calisthenics along with your full blown knock down praise and worship, or in how silent one can be, or in how lifeless and dull one can present themselves.
From the sublime to the ridiculous.
Some want to show their liberty in the fact that they have 'red' carpeting vs blue. 

It's funny, as the eyes of our heart are opened up and we see Him, our true liberty, heck we can be at a funeral and act as though we're at a party.

Richard

Back to Top
 
mary
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: Mar-03-02
Location: United States
Posts: 1942
Posted: Aug-16-05 at 6:00pm | IP Logged  

the shovel wrote:
~will wrote:

...just because people like ourselves don't find freedom there does NOT mean that everyone that attends the IC is in bondage.


~will, I couldn't agree more! My own awareness of freedom, as well as that of others, was radically intensified in the midst of a system that wants to destroy it.  :)

Jim

       Wow, Jim! What a perspective!    Really appreciate this one!

 



      

Mary
Back to Top
 
Mercy Man
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Dec-07-03
Location: Canada
Posts: 213
Posted: Aug-16-05 at 7:49pm | IP Logged  

Good question, Bill. My own experience would seem to indicate two things as pertaining to the IC. I found that whether I was in or out of the IC, the reality was that my spirit was in union with the Holy Spirit. Through the course of time I perceived that I didn't have to go to "church" to experience the "presence" of God. Second, I also found that, in or out of the IC, the flesh still had a direct connection to my soul. Amazingly, much to my dismay, when I left the IC, it became apparent that I took the flesh with me. The venom that was spewed out of my mouth toward the non-IC when I was a good soldier in the IC, was simply redirected toward the IC once delivered from it. What was that about?  How was it that the stench that I smelt about “the lie” as I perceived it when I in the IC was of the same odor that I smelt about the “lie” of the IC when I was out of it? I came to the conclusion that maybe, just maybe, that stench came from my own armpits. I eventually was impressed that the IC wasn't the cause of my soul issues, I am, and conversely, the IC doesn't and never has given me union with Christ, the Spirit does. Just some thoughts.



      

He has made us Accepted in the Beloved
Back to Top
 
graceman
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Sep-17-02
Location: United States
Posts: 455
Posted: Aug-16-05 at 8:11pm | IP Logged  

Will-

Thanks for your reply to my comment--my sarcasm usually puts people off.  (However, I do find sarcasm useful, certain things are worthy of derision--in my opinion.)

"I agreed that the system CAN bring bondage..." (your comment)

I would say the system will ALWAYS bring bondage for that is ALL the system can bring.  Jesus Christ died, was buried and resurrected to bring an end to ALL religious systems--including the only God-ordained one, the Jewish religion (Law).  I've been a Christian for over 20 years, approximately 17 years of which I belonged and was active in 'organized' church bodies.  My experience was one of confusion, discouragement, BONDAGE and an ongoing feeling of 'spiritual disorientation', like always living in a hotel and never being at home in my own bed.  Know why?  The legalistic crap I was being fed was leading to malnutrition.  But because the leaders looked 'spiritual', had been to seminary, etc. I thought they 'knew' better than me.  Guess what?  They don't know better than the Holy Spirit!  He moved me to such a state of 'fleshly nausea' I just had to leave.  They had taken the miraculous life of Christ and had turned it into the HUMAN/divine cooperative.  You know (or maybe you don't yet) the 'if you do your part, God will do His part' thing.  Maybe you don't see anything wrong with this.  OK--head on with it...enjoy your time there.  In the meantime, I will choose to be as 'hard' on the legalistic church as Paul was--it is the same spirit in all of us, so why should that surprise us?

Back to Top
 
Connie
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: Dec-03-01
Location: United States
Posts: 1559
Posted: Aug-16-05 at 9:17pm | IP Logged  

I've tried several times to contribute to this thread and end up deleting because of how it may be perceived by anyone who feels like the IC is being attacked or not being treated fairly.

There's never anything wrong with a testimony, though, is there?  So, having said that I will say: I was a member of one form or another of IC for 25 years or so, and all I can say is "thank God I'm out of it!"

IC promotes itself to the exclusion of the individual, with any semblance of individual rights and freedoms frowned upon.  There's no room for individualism in an institutional setting.  I was brow beaten, mistrusted, accused, shunned; unless, of course, I agreed with the leaders and kept in line. 

From what I can recall,my personal growth in Christ came from knowing and believing that I was one with Christ and that He was working all things for my good.   When I "rebelled" against the system, He made good on making all things good for me by revealing that it was His will that I had left all of that stuff behind.  It was the best thing I ever have experienced in my life, leaving the IC behind, but I know I'm not against the IC.  Or the people in it. I'm mad as hell sometimes, though, for the Lies promoted in the system that parade as "truth"! Sometimes I can't believe what a dupe I was believing some of those lies, either! 

Since I trust that it is all part of a process, I can't necessarily be against the IC, but I sure as shootin' don't wanna go back to it. 

And NO, I don't think it can be "reformed".  



Edited by Connie on Aug-16-05 at 9:20pm


      

Connie
"Wow!It's so bright in here!"
II Cor.4:5-6

    
Back to Top
 
~will
Digger
Digger


Joined: Jul-28-05
Posts: 39
Posted: Aug-16-05 at 10:22pm | IP Logged  

graceman,

your perspective is definately interesting. i just believe that the
people need grace, grace and more grace.

thanks for the honesty!

      

~will

"COME to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden and I will GIVE you REST..."
Back to Top
 
Joyce
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: Mar-14-02
Location: United States
Posts: 1939
Posted: Aug-17-05 at 12:24pm | IP Logged  

Will,   I think we are in agreement in that.  We are all in the desire for ourselves as well as others to receive that grace, grace and more grace.  It just happens, as Jim says on a similar subject, that it comes in spite of an IC (system) that wants to repress it.

Joyce

Back to Top
 
graceman
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Sep-17-02
Location: United States
Posts: 455
Posted: Aug-17-05 at 2:05pm | IP Logged  

Will--

Have you had a 'positive' experience within the church structure?  Are you a pastor or leader in some capacity?

Back to Top
 
Greg
Digger
Digger


Joined: Jun-15-05
Location: United States
Posts: 61
Posted: Aug-17-05 at 5:52pm | IP Logged  

Do you suppose much of the baggage IC carries has to do with the tendency/desire for structure, "growth", new buildings, attractiveness, marketability, room for promotion, security, promise of a future, etc...

I would think this would be a good company to work for!

On the other hand... I just got an email from a friend in India who's "IC" experience sounds nothing like is described throughout this forum. I find myself in an IC environment, but leadership here is ever aware of the potential to slip into system. Yet.. this is not necessarily seen as wrong by all. I am know to buck the trend toward system, and in some sense I've probably numbed the awareness I spoke of earlier.

Systems are often adopted to keep "loose canons" tied down if you know what I mean.

Greg
Back to Top
 
Dave S
Shackaholic
Shackaholic


Joined: Dec-01-01
Location: Isle Of Man
Posts: 913
Posted: Aug-17-05 at 8:58pm | IP Logged  

~will wrote:
graceman,

your perspective is definately interesting. i just believe that the
people need grace, grace and more grace.

thanks for the honesty!

Will,

From your perspective that may be true, but people need what they think they need, and many think that the commandments written on tablets of stone and all the variants that man has added to that,IS grace.

Thats why every denomination out there believes it is under grace,and each denomination believes it's neighbour denomination hasn't quite so much grace, so their idea of grace is actually disunion.

Generally, most church goers believe they serve God best when at war. I mean, what inspires the majority is a good venomous rant at another group of differing opinions. Funnily enough I was once in that environment and they actually called it grace.

True grace simply melts the war right out of you.

How can I blame the I.C for anything. I walked through their door simply because I thought I needed too. Now I have walked through a door, that I didn't think I needed too 

Back to Top
 
Joyce
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: Mar-14-02
Location: United States
Posts: 1939
Posted: Aug-17-05 at 11:50pm | IP Logged  

 

yes... the "Door".   A big difference than crossing the threshold of a building.

 

Joyce

Back to Top
 
mart1
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Apr-23-05
Posts: 454
Posted: Aug-18-05 at 11:33am | IP Logged  

Ok, i jumped ahead again after only reading the first third of these posts...so forgive me.
How many Christians have told you, "Don't fear anymore!  Because that's your problem."

I think that i am really starting to get that (i mean deep inside). 

Bill, you wrote:
"Are you against the IC?"

Maybe before i answer that i need to ask myself the question,
"Do i fear the I.C. and what they are doing right now?"
  - and next -
"Should i?"

No.  All things work to good.  In God's plan.  In His timing, which i don't understand.

Do i get mad at God?  Yeah!

But after a day or two i drain back down to, "Who else can i trust?  I got to let God lead me thru the way that He wants to lead me...man; i just wish that i could understand what is happening to me..." 
mart
Back to Top
 
~will
Digger
Digger


Joined: Jul-28-05
Posts: 39
Posted: Aug-18-05 at 3:23pm | IP Logged  

graceman,

no, i'm in no kind of leadership whatsoever.

Dave S,

I think that you are painting the churches with too broad a brush.

there's a lot more i can say, but God is the defender of his own...

~will

      

~will

"COME to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden and I will GIVE you REST..."
Back to Top
 
PeteNZ
Digger
Digger


Joined: Nov-24-04
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 74
Posted: Aug-23-05 at 3:04pm | IP Logged  

mart1 wrote:
All things work to good.  In God's plan.  In His timing, which i don't understand.

Do i get mad at God?  Yeah!

But after a day or two i drain back down to, "Who else can i trust?  I got to let God lead me thru the way that He wants to lead me...man; i just wish that i could understand what is happening to me..." 
mart

Hi Mart

I am reminded of a frustrating part of my journey, and when often getting mad at myself, wondering what the heck was going on, and wanting to be rid of "something" that seemed to be inside of me... 

Perhaps...like when gold is refined, the heat gets turned up, and the impurities rise to the surface, to be removed. I guess the process is repeated as necessary, but each time fewer impurities would remain to contaminate.

Along the way, some things just didn't seem to grab my focus any more.





      

Pete
Back to Top
 
mart1
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Apr-23-05
Posts: 454
Posted: Aug-23-05 at 4:47pm | IP Logged  

Thanks, Pete.  Yeah, i still need a lot of impurities cooked out of me.  Today was a good example of that for me.

I got really angry with another person about world stuff; so now i feel like crap.
Part of me keeps telling me that i was right (self-righteous); and the other part of me is telling me to just shut up already withall that stuff after nearly 1/2 century.

I'm trying to just hang in here tonight.
mart
Back to Top
 
RRaider
Digger
Digger


Joined: Mar-30-07
Posts: 69
Posted: Aug-24-07 at 12:31am | IP Logged  

Broken Link wrote:
Are you against the IC? Why or why not? Do you feel the IC can be "brought around" to what the biblical church "was meant to be", as many of the house churches and emergent churches believe?


Ishmael will never become Isaac.

No, the institution will never be "brought around", if it were it would cease to be the IC . I believe many in the institution will come to see the truth, however what is born of flesh is flesh.
Back to Top
 
Connie
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: Dec-03-01
Location: United States
Posts: 1559
Posted: Aug-24-07 at 8:17am | IP Logged  

Hey RRaider,

Hi and welcome to the forum.

I'm curious about your journey and how you ended up here.  Could you tell us a little about yourself and how you realized that the IC wasn't necessarily a place of refuge in Christ?

thanks,



      

Connie
"Wow!It's so bright in here!"
II Cor.4:5-6

    
Back to Top
 
RRaider
Digger
Digger


Joined: Mar-30-07
Posts: 69
Posted: Aug-24-07 at 5:46pm | IP Logged  

Hi Connie, the condensed version of my journey is here; http://shovelshack.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=2063&PN=1

If you have more specific questions I would be glad to answer them.

Thank you for the welcome.


Edited by RRaider on Aug-24-07 at 5:46pm
Back to Top
 
Connie
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: Dec-03-01
Location: United States
Posts: 1559
Posted: Aug-24-07 at 5:53pm | IP Logged  

Oh, yea, I read that and marveled at your story.  There's been several new members lately so I didn't connect the dots about that being your story.

 

Anyway, welcome and I hope you share more of your journey here.



      

Connie
"Wow!It's so bright in here!"
II Cor.4:5-6

    
Back to Top
 
rickh
Guest
Guest


Joined: Oct-01-03
Posts: 36
Posted: Aug-25-07 at 8:35pm | IP Logged  

what does I.C. stand for? seriously, i really dont know.  im guessing institutional church? is that right?  really, till i came to the shack, i dont remember ever hearing that. just want to make sure i know what youre all speaking of.  and if it is institutional church, the only way ive ever heard the word institutional used, as a kid and growing up, was a place where insane people went. not trying to be facetious here.   im really curious?  if its not what im guessing than disregard the last comment.   thanks all.  oops forgot to log in correctly.

Edited by Guest on Aug-25-07 at 8:36pm
Back to Top
 
mcdave
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: Dec-25-01
Location: United States
Posts: 1809
Posted: Aug-25-07 at 8:45pm | IP Logged  

Hi Rick,

 yeah ic is shackspeak for institutional church but a better term might be brick and mortar church ie traditional churches that meet in buildings rather than the church ,that is any gathering of believers in Christ,ie the Shack.not that your understanding of the word institutional doesn't apply to many of the bm churches we have come out of


Edited by mcdave on Aug-25-07 at 8:46pm


      

     It's not works,it's coffee.
   

Back to Top
 
the shovel
Shackmeister
Shackmeister


Joined: Oct-01-01
Location: United States
Posts: 4187
Posted: Aug-25-07 at 8:59pm | IP Logged  

rickh wrote:
what does I.C. stand for? seriously, i really dont know.  im guessing institutional church? is that right?  really, till i came to the shack, i dont remember ever hearing that. just want to make sure i know what youre all speaking of.  and if it is institutional church, the only way ive ever heard the word institutional used, as a kid and growing up, was a place where insane people went. not trying to be facetious here.   im really curious?  if its not what im guessing than disregard the last comment.   thanks all.  oops forgot to log in correctly.


Yes, you have correctly guessed the answer. Institutional Church it is.

Institution:
an established organization or corporation (as a bank or university) especially of a public character

From the beginning of the Shack, numerous folks wanted to make sure to make a distinction when referring to the real church (the body) or to the modern concept of the church. The phrases "Institutional Church" as well as "Organizational Church" or even "Chruch" have been used. Somewhere along the line somebody started calling it the IC or OC ... obviously the IC won out. Anyhow, I incorporated that usage into one of the categories. :)

Jim


      

DIGGIN'THE LIFE!
Back to Top
 
Broken Link
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: Mar-11-02
Location: United States
Posts: 2513
Posted: Aug-26-07 at 2:50am | IP Logged  

Rick,

You may not be trying to be facetious, but several of us grabbed onto the insane angle and that was when the IC got my vote!



      

Bill
theHarryTick™
heretic - n 1: a person who holds beliefs in conflict with the dogma of the church.
Back to Top
 
trudge
Digger
Digger


Joined: Aug-21-07
Posts: 32
Posted: Aug-26-07 at 10:50am | IP Logged  

For my part I get extremely frustrated at the sermons of the flesh being poured into hungry, searching ears week after week.  It is not just lame but CONTRARY to the Truth they claim to have.   I also, as you well know, get bogged down in the fleshy mindset.   It is so pervasive in everyone it's like a group dream...but there is no one to blame because it is all the old man stuff and he's dead...It's like complaining about a bad dream-  just wake up!

I do not think there is any other way though...It is the incubator for the Spirit to move.   All of the Bible was written to those in the fleshy mindset to free them...We are under the schoolmaster of law for a reason...babes in Christ.

If there is no basic understanding of Salvation history and the abc's of Christianity then we won't have a reference for where we are at.

Which of us would have come out of the system if we were never in it...so to speak?  We won't know freedom, or appreciate it, if we weren't enslaved.



Edited by trudge on Aug-26-07 at 11:03am
Back to Top
 
mcdave
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: Dec-25-01
Location: United States
Posts: 1809
Posted: Aug-26-07 at 11:34am | IP Logged  

trudge,

 i can see where you are coming from in a few of your points.it was always so frustrating to be bursting with the joy of knowing that Christ is our hope and then go into a service and be basically told that controlling our mind,behavior etc... was our only hope.i liked this analogy of yours"

It is so pervasive in everyone it's like a group dream...but there is no one to blame because it is all the old man stuff and he's dead...It's like complaining about a bad dream-  just wake up!"

     it would also be like taking your children into a beautiful garden and only pointing out the things that might hurt them but never passing on the joy of being in the garden.where a simple "watch out for snakes" would suffice, instead all day long ,every time you walk into the garden all you do is yell WATCH OUT FOR THOSE SNAKES.so your child is never ever able to enjoy resting in the garden but instead lives in fear in a place that is meant to bring joy.
    as to your statement that we couldn't have come out of the system if we hadn't been in it.there is a small amount of truth but honestly,wouldn't it have been better to have avoided the pain and frustration and come right to the knowledge of the truth first?.israel didn't have to wander for 40 years you know.it was their lack of faith. so it is with the IC.they stay bound because it is what they know and have been taught.  those of us what have escaped have done so despite what the ic is not because of it


Edited by mcdave on Aug-26-07 at 3:53pm


      

     It's not works,it's coffee.
   

Back to Top
 
trudge
Digger
Digger


Joined: Aug-21-07
Posts: 32
Posted: Aug-26-07 at 11:48am | IP Logged  

mcdave wrote:
.israel didn't have to wander for 40 years you know.it was their lack of faith. so it is with the IC.they stay bound because it is what they know and have been taught.  those of us what have escaped have done so despite what the ic is not because of it

I agree completely that it is "despite".  I just mean that it is like a fermenting that needs to proceed the awakening.   How can one wake up to the Truth if one doesn't grow tired of being asleep and smell the coffee?  I guess God can do anything but He does seem to use the natural cycle of things even on the supernatural level...Can that be what the parable of the woman and the 3 loaves is or the mustard seed?



Edited by trudge on Aug-26-07 at 11:49am
Back to Top
 
the shovel
Shackmeister
Shackmeister


Joined: Oct-01-01
Location: United States
Posts: 4187
Posted: Aug-26-07 at 12:07pm | IP Logged  

Quote:
Which of us would have come out of the system if we were never in it...so to speak?  We won't know freedom, or appreciate it, if we weren't enslaved.

My dear brother,

It is true that our freedom shines ever so brightly against that backdrop of slavery. Consider though, that the system we came out of is merely an organized facet of the natural mind's wisdom. In other words, no one has to pass through the organized church system in order to experience true freedom, because all were enslaved to the system of this world.

Quote:
If there is no basic understanding of Salvation history and the abc's of Christianity then we won't have a reference for where we are at.

I realize that you refer to specific aspects of God's working through Christ (sin and death through sin, the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, etc), but I ask you to consider that our attempts to package truth in such a way only conforms to the natural mind's system of wisdom. While I suggest no disregard to what God has done through Christ, we have for too long hung upon a systematized form of reference in hopes of gaining our bearing for who we are in this world. Because we are left with no familiar fleshly points of reference, it is a difficult realization to come to that Christ himself is our reference to where we are at.

Jim



      

DIGGIN'THE LIFE!
Back to Top
 
trudge
Digger
Digger


Joined: Aug-21-07
Posts: 32
Posted: Aug-26-07 at 2:10pm | IP Logged  

Hi Jim,

Very thought provoking.   Thank you.  

I do not see anyway of presenting Christianity or anything for that matter that is going to escape being systemitized in this world.   If Christianity could have come to us in a more pure or different way then it did, then it would have.   It's packaging is under the laws of this world like everything else...birth, growth, decay, death...

The Spirit, on the other hand, is not under these laws "it blows where it wills..." and when it 'blows' it makes sense out of all the systemitized forms of the ages.

I'm not suggesting those who are in the Spirit continue in the dead forms.  I am just saying that none of us was born in the Spirit at our natural birth and came to salvation, indirectly, through the natural systems.    How could it be otherwise?



Edited by trudge on Aug-26-07 at 2:14pm
Back to Top
 
the shovel
Shackmeister
Shackmeister


Joined: Oct-01-01
Location: United States
Posts: 4187
Posted: Aug-26-07 at 2:25pm | IP Logged  

Do you suppose, though, that we learned Christ according to the natural systems? We speak in Christ. The world can only try to comprehend by forcing them into the understanding it is confined to. Despite all our attempts to revisit and explain what has actually happened to us we heard HIM through the same words that others can only systematize. Never let anyone's fleshly explanations cause you to question the purity in which Christ came to you. :)

Jim


      

DIGGIN'THE LIFE!
Back to Top
 
trudge
Digger
Digger


Joined: Aug-21-07
Posts: 32
Posted: Aug-26-07 at 2:27pm | IP Logged  

the shovel wrote:
Do you suppose, though, that we learned Christ according to the natural systems? We speak in Christ. The world can only try to comprehend by forcing them into the understanding it is confined to. Despite all our attempts to revisit and explain what has actually happened to us we heard HIM through the same words that others can only systematize. Never let anyone's fleshly explanations cause you to question the purity in which Christ came to you. :)

Jim

Big thanks.

Back to Top
 

 



the shovel home page