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The Stuff of Grace
 Shovel Shack : The Stuff of Grace
Subject Topic: restitution of sins?confusing?condemning?
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KevinKim
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Posted: May-07-04 at 5:10pm | IP Logged  

i just read a book by Joy Dawson called Intimacy with God and for a few days Ive been feeling spiritually dejected.

Now I agree with all my heart that we recieve salvation not by works but by faith.  Ive been saved only less than a year, but I believe God has done so much in bringing me into this new life in Him.  Hes restored by soul and everyday He is faithful in convincing me this simple truth in all areas of my life. 

Now this book talked about Restitution of sins, and asfter reading this book, I spoke with a one of my spiritual mentors who told me something Im not sure if I agree with....

She said I had to take back or make right sins Ive committed that Im aware of.  Every person, whether christian or non christian, that I know Ive lied to..I have to confess and tell them the truth..every thing I stole..I have to give back..if not I have to write a note..etc. etc.

Now I have been growing and learning about Him for the past four months without dabbling in much sin at all...but suddenly for the past few days ve been feeling guilty again about sins  committed and asked forgiveness for, even confessed to a brother about..and Im realyl confused.  do I have to really have to do that to be reconciled to his grace again_

 

im confused, help me!

 

thanks

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KevinKim
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Posted: May-07-04 at 5:11pm | IP Logged  

its like i feel like i have to work for my salvation againor something...

 

the leader gave me a few verses about hiding my trangressions...and verses about confessing...so she says its scriptural

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Broken Link
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Posted: May-07-04 at 11:43pm | IP Logged  

KevinKim,

They always do that, use scriptures to make what they say more authoritative.

I think your comment about feeling like having to work for your salvation all over again, was extremely insightful as to the demands being placed on you. Don't they seem to suggest that Jesus just hasn't done quite enough to save you from yourself, that you have to "finish the job"?

If you feel like going and making those things right, you certainly may, but doing those things...
  • is not a mandatory requirement
  • does not get you "back" into God's good graces.
You are already there by what Jesus has done!

Edited by Broken Link on May-08-04 at 4:39pm


      

Bill
theHarryTick
heretic - n 1: a person who holds beliefs in conflict with the dogma of the church.
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the shovel
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Posted: May-08-04 at 7:13am | IP Logged  

Hello Kevin!  Welcome to the Shack. 

Excellent comments, Bill. 

Paul, in his letter to the Galatians, asked a question of the believers there that would fit quite well in your case, Kevin.  He wanted to know what had happened to them, what had hindered them, since they had been doing so well in their freedom up to that point. 

This:
"Hes restored by soul and everyday He is faithful in convincing me this simple truth in all areas of my life."

Became this:
"its like i feel like i have to work for my salvation again or something..."

Sounds very "hindered" to me!!  It's always the same.  Someone is truly enjoying new life in the true freedom that's found only in Christ, and then somebody else has to come along and tell them how to "do it right".

Perhaps the author of that book had found a sense of relief from making restitution toward someone she had offended, or maybe she just learned it from someone else, but then got it down to a science.  Either way, something that brought relief to one got turned into a formula, and then demanded as a requirement for this so-called "intimacy" with God ... only to end up producing anything but!

If you received this amazing and miraculous life in Christ through faith - which is by the total absence of doing something for it - then why would you pay attention to those who cause you to feel as though you have to work for it?  You WERE doing well without that poison because the Spirit of Christ was unhindered by the demands to make him work right.  He works fine without those requirements, don't you think? 

Jim


      

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mcdave
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Posted: May-08-04 at 3:16pm | IP Logged  

This reminds me of a former pastor at the church i used to attend.he was very big on seeking out forgiveness for former sins commited.in fact one day he got up and from the pulpit and stated   "I have finally(after being saved 25 years) completed asking forgiveness and making restititution for EVERY sin i have ever commited against men!"   he then went on to tell the congregation that if they ever wanted to be truely right with God and have a real,deep, relationship with Him,that we'd better get going and do the same thing,dig deep into those hidden places we haven't really turned over to God and get to work.  The burden this put on those listening was unimaginable and continues to this day.in fact i was visiting the church a few weeks ago and he happend to be the guest speaker(now 10 years after the "I've made myself clean" message) and he was preaching the SAME THING.obviously the method he was trying to use to be made right, will never work. 

       We HAVE BEEN made right ONE TIME FOREVER by Christs physical death  on the cross.  To me,going back and trying to fix again what he has already done is us trying to put him back on the cross again,as if the first time wasn't good enough. but  IT  WAS.



Edited by mcdave on May-08-04 at 3:17pm


      

     It's not works,it's coffee.
   

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KevinKim
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Posted: May-08-04 at 5:15pm | IP Logged  

I sought out God today and read some verses on being dead to the law and alive in Christ (Rom. 7 8)..He also showed me Eph. 4 v.14 which explains how those who enter the fullness of Christ will no longer be blown here and there by every wind of teaching.

I praised Him and my heart was back where it used to be...free from guilt and full of gratitude.

Than as the day went..I began worrying again about this problem about confessing all my lies and returning stolen stuff ...and I began to feel disheartened once again from this whole restitution thing.  To make the matter worse..I read Ezekiel 33:15

Ive been saved for a year now..and Ive confessed these sins long ago..I dont have access to the stuff I stole because I am doing missions in Spain and I live in Washington..and Im findnig myself trying to email people for email addresses of people I barely speak to.  This is an incredible burden on me, because I have not been living like this for a long time..for a year.. because of His grace..and now I feel His grace is far from me because if this restitution stuff is real..m goign to one guilty man for the amount of years itd probably take me to make all things ive dnoe wrong right.

ezekial 33:15....so is this restitution thing truly biblical?

I believe God today agreed with you guys in my heart today..because i felt a sense of peasce and recognition of true grace when I read yall replies..if you could give me deeper insight into what you guys are talking about it would be comforting.  i truly believe God wants me to ask Grace Specialists such as yourselves..haha.  no really, this aspect of Christ is missing in alot of teachings.

anyway, if you could help me itd be awsome

 

thanks

 

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mcdave
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Posted: May-08-04 at 6:36pm | IP Logged  

 Hi Kevin(i hope that's your name),

 

   Grace Specialists,that's a good one.,all that we can do is reflect the grace given us in Christ.Now,not claiming to be an expert but do have a few things for you to consider in your own heart.that is the place you will find peace, resting in the knowledge of Him as he shows you the truth by His spirit.

 anyway a few verses to ponder and to the regular shacksters i apologise for the long post and excessive use of scripture

Acts 13:38"Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.

or any old testament law including that ezekiel verse

romans 3:19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law,(all who are not relying on Christs work) so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

.................26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

Galatians 3: 1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard? .......10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us..........

18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.
19What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come......23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Hebrews 10 1The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
"Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7Then I said, 'Here I am--it is written about me in the scroll--
I have come to do your will, O God.' " 8First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). 9Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16"This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds." 17Then he adds:
"Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more." 18And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. 19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.

 hope this gives you hope and something to chew on.

 



Edited by mcdave on May-08-04 at 6:37pm


      

     It's not works,it's coffee.
   

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graceman
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Posted: May-09-04 at 1:59pm | IP Logged  

    Kevin, thank you for your honesty and transparency in sharing your struggle--this is very helpful for me and others.

    Bill, McDave and Jim--your comments are right on!  Its Great to hear God's wisdom through you guys!

    Kevin, I have been through the whole process of confession, restitution, support groups, etc. all under the guise of this being 'the good news' of what Jesus did for me.  You are on target to question this thinking!  Do not be put off track by those who 'seem' to be more mature than you.  Christ lives in you, He is indeed your very life!  He is well able to lead you into whatever course of action that is loving and wise in His eyes.  Those who encourage you to follow some 'biblical guidelines' for restitution of sin damage are not resting in Christ's work for forgiveness and LIFE--they want to add something to the finished work of Christ and make sure others follow their lock-step.  Its simple.  If they have to go through spiritual (legal) gymnastics, so should everyone else!

    Follow your gut--Christ is in you!

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mcdave
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Posted: May-09-04 at 3:05pm | IP Logged  

graceman wrote:

     Follow your gut--Christ is in you!

Yeah,what he said.



      

     It's not works,it's coffee.
   

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KevinKim
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Posted: May-09-04 at 6:21pm | IP Logged  

wow, these verses are shouting something at me..especially because for a time now I have been free of a lot of my past habitual sins and have been running with a clean conscience based on that..until I ran into this restitution teaching which forced me to reailze that indeed I am justified by something greater than my conduct.

thank yall so much...these are things that brought me to the Lord when i first was saved...its funny how recently how easily Ive placed my confidence in what I do and dont do as opposed to christs work...which brigns me to my next question..but i will make it a new topic. 

 

by the way, i am over this feeilng of guilt and shame..Christ is my salvation ONCE AGAIN!

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the shovel
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Posted: May-10-04 at 7:48pm | IP Logged  

KevinKim wrote:
by the way, i am over this feeilng of guilt and shame..Christ is my salvation ONCE AGAIN!


Kevin, I am so excited for you regarding those feelings of guilt and shame once again dissipating!  Realize that Christ has been your salvation this whole time even during the time you did not sense or enjoy it ... even I can sense where you're coming from in saying it.  :)

Jim


      

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luvin
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Posted: Jan-02-11 at 2:48pm | IP Logged  

This thread really hit home for me. I love the way
KevinKim innocently asks if maybe the fleshly
information he was being influenced by was of God.
If you read his questions from the top down, you can
really see the difference between the grace of our
Lord Jesus in a real and LIVING way moving about in
his life, and that of the
flesh attempting to 'line up' with Him who is our
LIFE
and pass itself off as real.[as in the case of his
church and book reading]

The basis of most of my own questions[aka:
'struggles'] throughout the years have all been
rooted in the fake vs. the real working of God.[with
respect to works] For just like Nabisco has it's own
original 'Wheat Thins', Albertsons can always make
something 'just like it'..except well it is NOT the
same. Weak analogy but, I think you get the point.

There are a TON of scriptures when read with an
emphasis on fleshly understanding can SEEM like
they are asking US to perform. The fact of the
matter though is that this life in Christ IS
miraculous and doesn't need any help from our
requirement[working] approaches. For in trying to
MAKE us do something , we actually STIR UP the
opposite![the power if sin is in the Law]

The thing that stands out to me in the law influence
of his readings and church is Kevin's forced
emphasis on SIN[having his being viewed as being
still in it] when he get's caught up in
'restitution". Restitution according to the flesh is
just that, according to the flesh. OK, so you say
'wait you are letting him off the hook! He will GET
AWAY with the offense then!'. I once heard Jim say
to somebody to realize that NO ONE 'get's away' with
sin. Someone paid for it. Yeah, not everyone
understands this reality,for there are many who do
not believe but, it does not change the greater
reality of there being NO MORE sin. Others will
still hold sins against you not knowing this reality
in Him.

I wonder if Paul ever ran around to EVERY person he
ever offended in the kingdom of God? After just
reading the whole letter of ACTS, I have to say I
don't see any of that sort of thing in what he did
AT ALL. In fact he simply seemed to forget the past
except with an occasional mention of what he used to
be and do before He was knocked in the head and
shinned on by Christ! For the deceived will go on
hurting and being hurt. Offending and being
offended. It will NEVER cease. For such was our way
of life before we knew Him.


Check this out:
"He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he
must labor, performing with his own hands what is
good, so that he will have something to share with
one who has need."


Notice how he never suggested that they go look up
all the names on his 'list' or go through the phone
book to try to track down all those former offenses?


What if our attempts at 'restitution' often are
nothing more than a SUBSTITUTE for the restitution
that was once and for all pronounced in Christ?

Are we free to seek restitution? Yeah, but are we
free NOT to?

Will God do His thing without it?[our
help]Isn't HE always working? Do we have to jump in
and do things to 'get right'? On the other hand do
we
need to set up some 'grace law' that stands in the
way of those who are truly motived in love to share
some restitution with another?

Edited by luvin on Jan-02-11 at 3:59pm


      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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Debi
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Posted: Jan-04-11 at 2:22am | IP Logged  

I really enjoyed your thoughts here Adam.

I remember being indoctrinated into the plan to make restitution for all our past sins to get 'right with God' even tho He had made us right with Him already by making us NEW. In fact, we had to pay money and go to seminars on how to do it "all", (like God might not have had us do some of it ; and like graceman said: Follow your gut--Christ is in you!.) But like you said,  "What if our attempts at 'restitution' often are nothing more than a SUBSTITUTE for the restitution that was once and for all pronounced in Christ?" Yes it kept us continually dwelling on sin and our past selves and still feeling unacceptable until we cleaned the past all up. Problem, some new past "sin" always creep into my mind.

This is so true:
Adam wrote:
The fact of the matter though is that this life in Christ IS miraculous and doesn't need any help from our
requirement[working] approaches. For in trying to
MAKE us do something , we actually STIR UP the
opposite!(the power if sin is in the Law)


And I loved this:
"In fact he simply seemed to forget the past
except with an occasional mention of what he used to
be and do before He was knocked in the head and
shinned on by Christ! For the deceived will go on
hurting and being hurt. Offending and being
offended. It will NEVER cease. For such was our way
of life before we knew Him."

Jim wrote:
If you received this amazing and miraculous life in Christ through faith - which is by the total absence of doing something for it - then why would you pay attention to those who cause you to feel as though you have to work for it?  You WERE doing well without that poison because the Spirit of Christ was unhindered by the demands to make him work right.  He works fine without those requirements, don't you think? 


So glad to no longer have to pay attention to those lying voices and not have to be POISONED by such requirements. Poison-such a great word to describe what I look back on all of that sort of teaching, and now to be FREE.

(Aren't I good at quoting people.? Maybe that's because I don't have any original thoughts) Well, they're all Christ's words!


      

Debi
"Truth is not the sum total of all true things, but is instead a person & His name is Jesus & He has become our LIFE."
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the shovel
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Posted: Jan-04-11 at 3:32am | IP Logged  

Thanks for posting this, Adam, I also loved what you wrote. And Debi, I really enjoyed hearing how this stirred you up to remember the futile attempts pushed upon you. The lying voices are all around us with their suggestions to live according to the natural mind and its ways. But we have not learned Christ in this way. :)

Jim


      

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Dignz
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Posted: Jan-04-11 at 6:56am | IP Logged  

 awesome awesome awesome  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!   

debi, you are a funny gal ... having no original thoughts ... nothing new under the sun.    i love how you express!  fun!  unique and wonderful to you, from you, etc. 

poison free  ...  christ our antidote!  




      

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luvin
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Posted: Jan-05-11 at 8:56am | IP Logged  

Debi,

I enjoyed immensely what you added here. I have been
wanting to comment today but, had no time.

"Yes it kept us continually dwelling on sin and our
past selves and still feeling unacceptable until we
cleaned the past all up. Problem, some new past
"sin" always creep into my mind." -Debi

I have seen over and over again just how EASILY the
flesh is offended. I mean it lives off of guilt. For
it would see you begging for mercy and pleading for
reconciliation just so it could say something like
'I'll think about it..but you must SHOW it..so I can
SEE it'.

What kind of God are we serving that would send us
out to go play the games of the flesh? Did Jesus try
to get his disciples hyped up to go reconcile there
pasts? I thought He said something to the order of
'let the dead bury the dead. You come follow ME'.

I mean even if I COULD set 'right' every damage I
have done to everyone I have wronged is that any
different than the requirements so clearly stated in
Leviticus?

Do we not remember :

'an eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth.'?

Can you imagine all the questions that came up with
that one back then?!

"Did He mean an actual eye ball or what?" "Does that
really mean I have to give all those sheep back or
does he just mean teeth and eyes?" "what if
the guy isn't home and I want to return his goods"?

There were probably the exact SAME self centered
arguments coming up in there heads back then as they
do now.

No ,this was a REMINDER of sin.

Hey if two hearts want to be reconciled then THEY
WILL. There aint nothing forced about it.

It was and is all a call to the miraculous not
fleshly wisdom.

Shoot half the time you can't even say something to
someone without a crazy reaction so that
reconciliation is not even recognized.[that's just a
fact]

The fact of the matter is we are free from the
flesh. We are also free both to 'reconcile' and also
not to 'reconcile'.

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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Debi
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Posted: Jan-06-11 at 12:34am | IP Logged  

Adam wrote:
Shoot half the time you can't even say something to someone without a crazy reaction so that reconciliation is not even recognized.(that's just a fact)




This is so true, especially if relatives are involved.

Yes, it's so freeing to 'reconcile' and also
not to 'reconcile'.

And loved this Sherri:

poison free  ...  christ our antidote!  



      

Debi
"Truth is not the sum total of all true things, but is instead a person & His name is Jesus & He has become our LIFE."
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RRaider
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Posted: May-03-11 at 12:46pm | IP Logged  

I know this is an old post, but I hope Kevin kicked that "spiritual mentor" to the curb, at least as far as her being a "mentor" of any kind. I could say a lot more as people like that really, ummm, piss me off, but I'll leave it at that.

Chris
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the shovel
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Posted: May-03-11 at 1:41pm | IP Logged  

Yeah ... we can only hope so. :)

Jim

      

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