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The Stuff of Grace
 Shovel Shack : The Stuff of Grace
Subject Topic: Question about "The Grace of God"
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Debi
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Posted: Oct-18-10 at 7:48pm | IP Logged  

A friend of mine wanted me to bring up a question to what Jim wrote on the front page: THE GRACE OF GOD

She said she is afraid of using the term "grace" and all the teachings associated with that term because, as Jim mentioned, it is presented as just a concept or another system. People still see themselves sinning and are dead but think they have life because Christ in grace has come to help them (like found in organized "churches" today.) We need to see we are dead and need LIFE. Grace (or the misuse of the word) is being used to keep people in deception. (This was her experience-I summed up what she wrote me.)

So instead of saying "stand in Christ alone and you will stand in His grace" she would say, "Stand in Christ alone and you will stand in HIS LIFE."

She was wondering if others had some thoughts they might like to share on this.

My thought: Even though the word 'grace' has been misused or watered down, we can still stand in His true grace. We don't have to give up the word; we can just declare its true meaning and implication.


      

Debi
"Truth is not the sum total of all true things, but is instead a person & His name is Jesus & He has become our LIFE."
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Dignz
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Posted: Oct-18-10 at 8:35pm | IP Logged  

my first thoughts for now are that i can understand her apprehension in using the 'term'.  perhaps your friend may feel less intimidated as she realizes that the grace of god very much describes a part of his very nature, and that jesus christ was the very personification of god's grace,  as opposed to the abuses of the very much mistaken self-righteous religious leaders of that historical time who did exactly what mistaken self-righteous religious leaders do today ... misuse, misinterpret, misguide and lord over the vulnerable ... acting as predators among the prey ... using their view of god as their validation and justification for their various abuses, neglects and ... well ... dot dot dot, fill in the blanks.

perhaps your friend will be more encouraged as she comes to realize that the problem is not with the word or term, but with those who misunderstand it and misuse it.  perhaps she could ask whoever she is speaking with at any particular time such conversation of grace presents itself, what they mean by 'grace', and then she could share what she believes is meant by the grace of god ... as part and parcel with his nature and personified in his son, and is now also part and parcel with those who belong to god in christ jesus.  the grace of god is also ours in the very nature of the new creation he has made us.  :)

she is right ... the grace of god is not a doctrine, system or concept.  she should feel free to explain that to whoever she may be speaking to or with ... share with them that she does not agree with that assessment, attitude or religious view.

maybe she would really enjoy, be more encouraged and less apprehensive about describing the grace of god if she does a search on the shovel site for 'grace' and reads what there is available concerning it.  ????

i dunno ... i hope i am not missing the point ... or going down another wabbit twail.

all for now ...




Edited by Dignz on Oct-18-10 at 8:39pm


      

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luvin
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Posted: Oct-18-10 at 8:53pm | IP Logged  



      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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Dignz
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Posted: Oct-19-10 at 2:18am | IP Logged  

just checking out the shack again ...    on my way to bed ... up waaay too late ...

"... People still see themselves sinning and are dead but think they have life because Christ in grace has come to help them (like found in organized "churches" today.) We need to see we are dead and need LIFE. Grace (or the misuse of the word) is being used to keep people in deception." <deb's friend

i would love to be able to sit and have back and forth conversation together ...   i would love to ask your friend what she means by these things that are quoted above, so that i could understand her better, but ... for now ... i will share a few more thoughts ...

truly, it is the law that gives strength to sin ... and focus on sin is a debilitating bondage by the law that supports it. 

we ARE made ALIVE together in and with christ jesus ... our ever present-eternal reality ... sin is no longer an issue with god.  it IS however an issue with the legal bondage-peddlers who seek to convince us basically that what jesus did was NOT enough and that we still have to do OUR part to deal with sin.  the fruit of their message is bondage.  we are NO LONGER DEAD ... we can see ourselves as ALIVE together in and with and because of christ.  it is a miracle gift of god's grace, love, generosity and all that he is.  he is the message and substance ... the very essence of our freedom, our sure and living hope, and our very confidence and security. 

just about anything and everything can be used to deceive us and to convince us that we are in bondage to that which demands we are lacking and that christ is insufficient, therefore we are insufficient ... to lead us back to and attempt to keep us in bondage.  their deception is ... well ... it is a lie, and the bondage they purport is bogus!  we have been set free ... we have been called out of darkness and bondage ... we are LIGHTs ... we are ALIVE ... lights in the midst of darkness ... alive in the midst of death.  we can stop looking for 'something more grand, less fuzzy', and realize that we are miracles ... we are not lacking in the things of god ... christ is our all ... we have it ALL because we have the very spirit of god himself!  what more could we possibly need? 

if we can be made to keep thinking we need more of god, more of this, more of that, then we can be manipulated with and by the fear, guilt and shame that is 'bred and spread' with those lies. 

the truth about him and us ... these are the things we need each other to be encouraged by, with, etc. 

oh my gosh ... i HAVE to go to bed now ... my head is about to fall on the keyboard.     that wouldn't be very comfortable at all.     



oops ... i keep forgetting deb ... i love your thoughts shared at the bottom of your post! 


Edited by Dignz on Oct-19-10 at 2:19am


      

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Connie
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Posted: Oct-19-10 at 9:45am | IP Logged  

Hi Debi,

The thing that jumped out to me was the idea that we "can" stand in the grace of God. It's more like we actually do, however we think about "standing in the grace of God". In fact that term itself makes it feel like there's still something to do.

We've been put into the the measureless love and acceptance of God through Christ. Relating to Him at every point in the journey with a simple resting in the already done fact opens doors for us into enjoying the journey. It's a done deal.

 



      

Connie
"Wow!It's so bright in here!"
II Cor.4:5-6

    
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luvin
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Posted: Oct-19-10 at 10:18am | IP Logged  

'we ARE made ALIVE together in and with christ jesus ... our ever present-eternal reality ... sin is no longer an issue with god.'-Dignz

 

I love that.



      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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Dignz
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Posted: Oct-19-10 at 10:55am | IP Logged  

"We've been put into the the measureless love and acceptance of God through Christ. Relating to Him at every point in the journey with a simple resting in the already done fact opens doors for us into enjoying the journey. It's a done deal."  <connie bright light  

very encouraging to remember

adam, ditto!  i love that, too ... especially
our ever present eternal reality! 




      

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mary
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Posted: Oct-19-10 at 1:59pm | IP Logged  


   Yes, Connie!


      

Mary
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mary
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Posted: Oct-19-10 at 2:01pm | IP Logged  

Connie wrote:


We've been put into the the measureless love and acceptance of God through Christ. Relating to Him at every point in the journey with a simple resting in the already done fact opens doors for us into enjoying the journey. It's a done deal.

 



    Oh, before I forget......Shack Quote!


      

Mary
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mary
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Posted: Oct-19-10 at 2:02pm | IP Logged  


    Sherri, your 'stuff' is always motivating and encouraging! 


      

Mary
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Debi
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Posted: Oct-19-10 at 8:59pm | IP Logged  

Thanks for the input Sherri.

"... People still see themselves sinning and are dead but think they have life because Christ in grace has come to help them (like found in organized "churches" today.) We need to see we are dead and need LIFE. Grace (or the misuse of the word) is being used to keep people in deception."

This was summing up her experience I think. She previously saw herself still sinning as a believer and thought she had Life but felt Christ really wasn't her life but a helper through grace and her focus was what she had been doing for God. When she was shown that she was dead and needed His LIFE she felt her deception was lifted. It's a progression of awareness, a journey-don't know if that makes any sense?

I know for myself, I used to wonder if I was truly "in Christ" when I was such a legalist and at what point I received His LIFE but now I just REST and don't try to figure that all out.

Connie that was a great point and wonderful to remember! Yes, we already stand in the Grace of God-it's a done deal. And RESTING has really opened up enjoying the journey.

Even though the word 'grace' has been misused or watered down, we REST in His true grace because of what He has done and who He is. We don't have to give up the word; we can just declare its true meaning and implication.


Edited by Debi on Oct-20-10 at 12:13am


      

Debi
"Truth is not the sum total of all true things, but is instead a person & His name is Jesus & He has become our LIFE."
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Debi
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Posted: Oct-20-10 at 1:48pm | IP Logged  

I was reading some writings Jim wrote in the past on grace.

Here are a couple of great quotes that I thought applied here:

"What I desire to see is the real SANITY that God ministers in Christ so that we are not running and jumping on every new grace-bandwagon. HaHa! Grace is so, so real that it causes us to realize that all else is merely bogus game playing or superstitious religious practices and belief structures. Life, the real life of God himself working in us, in what I desire to see sweeping those born of God."


"So, speak the life of Christ and plan on being misunderstood, but know that HE is the one who is working all things together for our good!"


"I went from having to verify or validate everything by chapter and verse to simply KNOWING that simple difference between death and life."


"Grace brings Life."


      

Debi
"Truth is not the sum total of all true things, but is instead a person & His name is Jesus & He has become our LIFE."
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Dignz
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Posted: Oct-20-10 at 3:52pm | IP Logged  

wonderful ... wonderful ... 




      

"afterall, he's not a tame lion"
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luvin
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Posted: Oct-20-10 at 4:06pm | IP Logged  

Awesome quotes Debi!

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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luvin
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Posted: Oct-20-10 at 6:25pm | IP Logged  

"if we can be made to keep thinking we need more of
god, more of this, more of that, then we can be
manipulated with and by the fear, guilt and shame
that is 'bred and spread' with those lies.-Dignz

though I liked everything you wrote, I thought I
would chime in here..on this part..

How CAN we enjoy what we have [in Him] which
surpasses the elements of this world if all we are
doing is looking for something according to the
flesh? In other words, if all we are being taught by
the flesh to do is chase after 'better' and 'best' ,
how will we ever enter into faith were all the
riches of Christ ARE in us who are His beloved?

Thanks Dignz!

Love,

adam


      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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Dignz
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Posted: Oct-22-10 at 9:46am | IP Logged  

"How CAN we enjoy what we have [in Him] which surpasses the elements of this world if all we are doing is looking for something according to the flesh? In other words, if all we are being taught by the flesh to do is chase after 'better' and 'best', how will we ever enter into faith were all the riches of Christ ARE in us who are His beloved?" <-adam

good morning 

adam - good thoughts.  you said something on your blog, too that was good ... i had a few moments to check it out.  you said:

"You ever been listening or reading a teacher and hear some pretty good references to our reality in Him and then in the next moment have that same person cancel out everything he just stated ? This happens WAY more often than you suspect..I suspect." <-adam

indeed i have.  and to be even more precise, i am guilty of doing it myself all day long!     (i don't mean as a 'teacher' or anything like that.  i just mean in my own moment to moment thought processes, and i am sure it comes out in what i say/type, etc.) there is sooo much that goes on inside our brains/minds almost every moment of every day.  we are told that is where our biggest battles are won or lost.  we know that we are victors in christ alone.  we hear, listen to, remember, take heed to, and sift our thoughts and feelings through  many varied regurgitated, conditioned beliefs, teachings, influences, attitudes, lies, deceptions, etc. that we have adopted and adapted to over the years of our lives and experiences
. we can get distracted and forget the truth about us.

"... if all we are being taught by the flesh to do is chase after 'better' and 'best', how will we ever enter into faith where all the riches of Christ ARE in us who are His beloved?"


it is the spirit of god who teaches us and reminds us that we HAVE the faith of christ ... his faith IS our faith ... he is our reality ... we have in christ all that we need of the things of god ... we are made all that IS the new creation in him.  i may be misunderstanding any direction you meant, but these are things that are coming to my mind.  forgive me for my usual wabbity twails. 

i was thinking about how everything of the outward challenges and demands to us that it (the truth of him and us) is all a lie ... a deception ... a delusion.  how wonderful is it each and every time, right in the midst of and despite the chasing after better and best ... right in the midst of and despite all the challenges, demands, lies of deception, etc., ... how wonderful it is that miraculously the spirit of god himself shines so brightly within our hearts
and minds with the ever so sweet and confident reminder and assurance that we are his and that we have everything of god contained securely and in all abundance in all that he has made us in him. 

'better and best' are certainly relative aren't they?  but regardless, whatever we may perceive them to be to us, we can enjoy them while in the midst of them in all good conscience knowing that they do not define us ... they are not where our worth and value lay.  'better and best' come and go.  'chasing after' them we know to be an exercise in futility as their value, description and importance constantly change and fluctuate.  the ground they are supported on is very shaky indeed ... so shaky as to be nonexistent, completely untrustworthy and undependable.  truly illusions .... based on delusion ... lies.  they do not supply what we already have been supplied with in the new creation that we are in christ.  they can not.  they never could.  they never will.  we know this, not as 'theory' but experientially and in reality. 

now, i better stop there, 'cuz i could totally contradict all that wonderful truth with whatever ridiculous thing i may say out of past conditioned 'thinking' that pops up its ugly head and starts spewing empty death from my mouth ... or in this case ... out of and through my fingers        

  i don't know if that is at all within the content which you may have meant, adam?    could you maybe expound a little more to get me on track with you? 


Edited by Dignz on Oct-22-10 at 11:17am


      

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luvin
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Posted: Oct-22-10 at 11:56am | IP Logged  

Dignz wrote:


<span style="font-style: italic; color: rgb(51, 51,
255);">"How CAN we enjoy what we have [in Him] which
surpasses the elements of this world if all we are
doing is looking for something according to the
flesh? In other words, if all we are being taught by
the flesh to do is chase after 'better' and 'best',
how will we ever enter into faith were all the
riches of Christ ARE in us who are His beloved?" <-
adam</span><span style="color: rgb(51, 51,
255);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">good
morning </span></span><span style="font-style:
italic; color: rgb(51, 51, 255);"><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
</span></span><span style="color: rgb(51, 51,
255);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">adam -
good thoughts.  you said something on your blog, too
that was good ... i had a few moments to check it
out.  you said:<span style="font-style: italic;
color: rgb(51, 51, 255);">"You ever been listening
or reading a teacher and hear some pretty good
references to our reality in Him and then in the
next moment have that same person cancel out
everything he just stated ? This happens WAY more
often than you suspect..I suspect." <-
adam</span><span style="color: rgb(51, 51,
255);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">indeed i
have.  and to be even more precise,
i am guilty of<span
style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-
weight: bold;"></span></span> doing it myself all
day long!</span></span><span style="font-style:
italic; color: rgb(51, 51, 255);"><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span style="font-
style: italic;">     (i don't mean as a
'teacher' or anything like that.  i just mean in my
own moment to moment thought processes, and i am
sure it comes out in what i say/type, etc.)
</span></span></span><span style="color: rgb(51, 51,
255);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">there is
sooo much that goes on inside our brains/minds
almost every moment of every day.  we are told that
is where our biggest battles are won or lost.  <span
style="font-weight: bold;">we know that we are
victors in christ alone</span>.  we hear, listen to,
remember, take heed to, and sift our thoughts and
feelings through  many varied regurgitated,
conditioned beliefs, teachings, influences,
attitudes, lies, deceptions, etc. that we have
adopted and adapted to over the years of our lives
and experiences</span></span></span></span& gt;<span
style="color: rgb(51, 51, 255);"><span style="color:
rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51,
255);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">.
</span></span></span></span><span style="color:
rgb(51, 51, 255);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0,
0);"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 255); font-
weight: bold;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0,
0);"></span></span><span style="font-style: italic;
color: rgb(51, 51, 255);"> <span style="color:
rgb(0, 0, 0);">we can get distracted and forget the
truth about us.</span> </span></span></span><span
style="font-style: italic; color: rgb(51, 51,
255);">"... if all we are
being taught by the flesh to do is chase after
'better' and 'best', how
will we ever enter into faith where all the riches
of Christ ARE in us
who are His beloved?"</span><span style="color:
rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span style="font-weight: bold; font-
style: italic;">it is the spirit of god who teaches
us and reminds us</span> that we HAVE the faith of
christ ... his faith IS our faith ... he is our
reality ... we have in christ all that we need of
the things of god ... we <span style="font-weight:
bold;">are</span> made<span style="font-weight:
bold;"> all</span> that <span style="font-weight:
bold;">IS</span> the new creation in him.  i may be
misunderstanding any direction you meant, but these
are things that are coming to my mind.  forgive me
for my usual wabbity twails.  i was thinking about
how everything of the <span style="font-style:
italic;">outward</span> challenges and demands to us
that it (<span style="font-style: italic;">the truth
of him and us</span>) is all a lie ... a deception
... a delusion.  how wonderful is it each and every
time, <span style="font-weight: bold; font-style:
italic;">right in the midst of</span> and <span
style="font-weight: bold; font-style:
italic;">despite</span> the chasing after better and
best ... <span style="font-weight: bold; font-style:
italic;">right in the midst of</span><span
style="font-style: italic;"></span> and<span
style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">
despite</span> all the challenges, demands, lies of
deception, etc., ... how wonderful it is that
miraculously <span style="font-weight: bold; font-
style: italic;">the spirit of god himself</span>
shines so brightly within our hearts</span> and
minds with the ever so sweet and confident reminder
and assurance that we <span style="font-style:
italic;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">are
his</span></span><span style="font-style: italic;
font-weight: bold;"></span> and that we <span
style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-
weight: bold;">have</span></span><span style="font-
style: italic; font-weight: bold;"></span>
everything of god contained securely and in all
abundance in all that he has made us in him. 
<span style="font-style: italic;">'better and
best'</span> are certainly relative aren't they? 
but regardless, whatever we may perceive them to be
to us, we <span style="font-style:
italic;">can</span> enjoy them while in the midst of
them in all good conscience knowing that they do
<span style="font-style: italic;">not</span> define
us ... they are <span style="font-style:
italic;">not</span> where our worth and value lay. 
<span style="font-style: italic;">'better and
best'</span> come and go.  <span style="font-style:
italic;">'chasing after'</span> them we know to be
an exercise in futility as their value, description
and importance constantly change and fluctuate.  the
ground they are supported on is very shaky indeed
... so shaky as to be nonexistent, completely
untrustworthy and undependable.  truly illusions
.... based on delusion ... lies.  they do not supply
what we already have been supplied with in the new
creation that we are in christ.  they can not.  they
never could.  they never will.  we know this, not as
'theory' but experientially and in reality.  now, i
better stop there, 'cuz i could totally contradict
all that wonderful truth with whatever ridiculous
thing i may say out of past conditioned 'thinking'
that pops up its ugly head and starts spewing empty
death from my mouth ... or in this case ... out of
and through my <span style="font-style:
italic;">fingers</span>.           
<span style="font-style: italic; color: rgb(51,
51, 255);">  <span style="color: rgb(0,
0, 0);">i don't know if that is at all within the
content which you may have meant, adam?
</span>
   <span style="color: rgb(0, 0,
0);"> </span><font style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"
size="2">could you maybe expound a little more to
get me on track with you?  </span>




Hi Sher,

No I think you are exactly understanding were I am
coming from. I absolutely love your response. Hey,
sometimes the words are there..sometimes they come
out legal sounding..sometimes it is just US[me] who
hear it funny. No, but you got it. I love your
rescent post. I really do.

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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Dignz
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Posted: Oct-23-10 at 1:05pm | IP Logged  

well ... it may a kind of miracle that i didn't go down another rabbit trail.  

i love what you brought up.  good things to think on.  and a great question!  indeed, how can we enjoy what we have if we don't even know we have it, or we forget?   

i think that is the good part of what we can do for and with one another, along with the spirit of god whom we share altogether ... support one another in what is true because of and in christ jesus himself who has united us together ... who has done all and provided all we need concerning god and godliness ... freedom and life as opposed to law and bondage. 

hugs,


      

"afterall, he's not a tame lion"
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luvin
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Posted: Oct-23-10 at 2:27pm | IP Logged  

Dignz wrote:
well ... it may a kind of miracle
that i didn't go down another rabbit trail.  i
love what you brought up.  good things to think on. 
and a <span style="font-style: italic;">great</span>
question!  indeed, how <span style="font-style:
italic;">can</span> we enjoy what we have if we
don't even know we have it, or we forget?    i
think that is the good part of what we can do for
and with one another, along with the spirit of god
whom we share altogether ... support one another in
what is true because of and in christ jesus himself
who has united us together ... who has done all and
provided all we need concerning god and godliness
... freedom and life as opposed to law and bondage. 
hugs,



YES, and that is really what we do here.

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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Debi
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Posted: Oct-23-10 at 2:47pm | IP Logged  

I'll enthusiastically second that Sherri!


The words of Life from everyone here over the years has been a great support, challenge and encouragement.


      

Debi
"Truth is not the sum total of all true things, but is instead a person & His name is Jesus & He has become our LIFE."
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