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The Stuff of Grace
 Shovel Shack : The Stuff of Grace
Subject Topic: Kicked out of Pastors.COM
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Dave S
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Posted: Jun-25-05 at 9:55am | IP Logged  

SETH_ wrote:

Rest and Trust wrote:
The letter kills but the Holy Spirit gives Life. What I receive from much of what Seth posts is- God WORKS through His children. There is no shame or wrong in wanting God to perform His work through you in words and actions. There is no evil-legalism in God working through you. Why not let those of us who trust God to work through us in actions, encourage each other without the constant distraction of your painting what we say to be some brand of legalism and/or dis-unity?

thank you for the encouragement and support

I wonder if it has ever been considered that the pharisees also were of the mind that wanted God to work "through them" and also were convinced that God was working "through them" as the children of God.

What makes you think that " God working through us" and legalism are not partners in unity?

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mary
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Posted: Jun-25-05 at 5:12pm | IP Logged  

INSIGHTFUL, Dave S!   

Edited by mary on Jun-25-05 at 5:15pm


      

Mary
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Rest and Trust
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Posted: Jun-25-05 at 6:23pm | IP Logged  

Joyce, I was under the impression that condemnation is when someone sets up a standard and then condemns someone else for not living up to that standard? That is how that attack on Seth appeared to me? Who knows? Maybe I will change my mind later too.......  

Dave S, If I believed that I am God then everything I do no matter what I do would be God doing it because I am God, right? If I held onto that perception that I am God I would believe that I could do no wrong and anytime someone suggested that I could do wrong I would have to disagree. I believe that I may have asked you before but do you hold onto the view that in any way you are in and of yourself God? And if you do hold onto that view in some fashion then I would conclude that there is no way that you believe that you can do anything wrong? There again, if you believe that you can do no wrong then the suggetion that there is sin active inside your flesh that can be mortified by the Holy Spirit could easily be construed by you as "legalism". Personally I do not accept any doctrine that teaches that you or I am God. Sons of God through Jesus Christ yes but not God.   

If believing that the Holy Spirit can mortify the activity of sin in my flesh makes me a pharisee in your eyes, thats ok, you are free to judge others any way you like.....I believe that there is sin active in my flesh and a pharisee-ism sin could pop out as easily as any other that may be active in me...........I do not condemn myself either way because God does not condemn me. I simply rest and trust and know that I will be delivered by my judge one way or the other. 

 

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Rest and Trust
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Posted: Jun-25-05 at 6:27pm | IP Logged  

SETH_ wrote:

Rest and Trust wrote:
The letter kills but the Holy Spirit gives Life. What I receive from much of what Seth posts is- God WORKS through His children. There is no shame or wrong in wanting God to perform His work through you in words and actions. There is no evil-legalism in God working through you. Why not let those of us who trust God to work through us in actions, encourage each other without the constant distraction of your painting what we say to be some brand of legalism and/or dis-unity?

thank you for the encouragement and support

 

Anytime Seth. 

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SETH_
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Posted: Jun-25-05 at 7:29pm | IP Logged  

Dave S wrote:
What makes you think that " God working through us" and legalism are not partners in unity?

if you take that as a concept or theory then you are COMPLETELY right!

but if that is real life experience with tangible evidence which are fruits of faith which are nothing else but deeds build on faith, things that God pushes you to do, or puts the desire in you and you go after it as you find abundant life there and the purpose of it all is God being glorified. then that my friend is the greatest thing in the entire world, if u can make God smile, aaah that right there is worth everything!

if you love our Father you would relate

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daniel
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Posted: Jun-25-05 at 7:30pm | IP Logged  

Thank God we are rooted in the love and grace of Jesus Christ working all things for are good.Christ is in all of us and there is nothing greater then the love and grace of God a love that is never ending and will not fail anyone.

I thank God for each one of and love that has been planned in each one of our hearts.

Love in Christ Dan

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Dave S
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Posted: Jun-25-05 at 7:34pm | IP Logged  

<I believe that there is sin active in my flesh and a pharisee-ism sin could pop out as easily as any other that may be active in me...........I do not condemn myself >

yes I know you believe that, hence the continual references to right and wrong. 

If God has put sin to death in the flesh and you reckon sin is active then it follows that you reckon that sin is not put to death in the flesh. And where does the idea come from that the Holy Spirit will  help de-activate sin, when the Spirit has seen sin crucified, dead and buried.

Come out of her, come away from that whoreish mind that would have sin yet active

I am not in the flesh, I am in Christ and Christ is in the flesh. You speak well of a deliverance to come, but deliverance is come and freedom by deliverance.I no longer live, Christ lives.

I AM is more than a notion and an adherence to doctrine

 

 

You know not what you say, to mortify the deeds of the body is NOT to put away the activity of sin. How can Christ dwell in a temple where sin is active.

 

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Dave S
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Posted: Jun-25-05 at 7:50pm | IP Logged  

<things that God pushes you to do,>

Brother, your words drop around me like death , but greater is the Life in me.

You don't know me, if you knew me, you would know that God NEVER, ever "pushed" me to "do" anything. The God of this world tried AND failed so I recognise his voice

He revealed His Son in me and it pleased Him to do that.

Do me a favor, go tango with your pushy God,moreover if you knew my Father you would see a continual smile on His face. Smiling is the fruit of being well pleased and He is WELL pleased.

But I,m sure you have days when YOU can put a smile on your Father's face

 



Edited by Dave S on Jun-25-05 at 8:05pm
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Connie
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Posted: Jun-25-05 at 10:21pm | IP Logged  

Dave,

You have words of life, brother!  Thank you



      

Connie
"Wow!It's so bright in here!"
II Cor.4:5-6

    
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Joyce
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Posted: Jun-25-05 at 10:28pm | IP Logged  

 

I don't know how to cut and paste those quotes so will answer the way I can.

Rest and Trust had questions to me about condemnation and said that you see them as standards set by others that we shouldn't feel condemned by.  I looked it up where it says about how we are no longer under condemnation and it said that it refers to "an adverse sentence in a verdict"  which to me would mean guilt or sentence against me for anything anymore.  So to me it means that because of Christ I have no more condemnation regarding anything because of what was done at the cross.  It seems to me that that is the gospel  "good news".

I'd have to ditto all that Dave S said with regard to the LIfe within us.  It does say that it is no longer we who live, but Christ lives in us so to me that is what it means.  This to me is the paramount substance of our walk. 

And His working THROUGH me is as my tomato plant bears fruit.   Just some thoughts...

Joyce 

 

 

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Connie
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Posted: Jun-25-05 at 10:28pm | IP Logged  

 

 

 



Edited by Connie on Jun-25-05 at 10:43pm


      

Connie
"Wow!It's so bright in here!"
II Cor.4:5-6

    
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KevinKim
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Posted: Jun-25-05 at 10:54pm | IP Logged  

Hey Dave, quick question....

What am I DOING when I am hating my roommate, excessively
desiring a female friend, hungering for power and fame, etc.

Suppose I do these things from 10:30 - 11:00 in the morning. 30
minutes composed of nothing but these activties.

Am I doing nothing? Are my activities dismissed by God as "what is
dead?" If so, am I BEING DEAD?

Am I sinning? Am I displeasing God by being disobedient, or does
He only see CHRIST in me? If so, am I BEING CHRIST?

In the NAME of truth..in TERMS of the truth..in the CONTEXT of
truth...what am I truly doing from this 30 minutes in time and
space (reality)? And remember...I care nothing of "realities" that
exist outside of GODS.

Ciao!



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Broken Link
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Posted: Jun-25-05 at 11:08pm | IP Logged  

Quote:
What am I DOING when I am hating my roommate, excessively desiring a female friend, hungering for power and fame, etc.

You would be hating your roommate, excessively desiring your female friend, and hungering for power and fame, etc.

      

Bill
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heretic - n 1: a person who holds beliefs in conflict with the dogma of the church.
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Connie
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Posted: Jun-25-05 at 11:16pm | IP Logged  

The very concept of sin has to be clarified.  What IS sin, anyway?



      

Connie
"Wow!It's so bright in here!"
II Cor.4:5-6

    
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KevinKim
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Posted: Jun-26-05 at 2:00am | IP Logged  

Thats all I'm doing? What is the spiritual significance? There must
be something different in these activties than say..driving your car
or doing the dishes.

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Dave S
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Posted: Jun-26-05 at 5:31am | IP Logged  

<What am I DOING when I am hating my roommate, excessively
desiring a female friend, hungering for power and fame, etc.>

No No, the question is what would the mind of sin be DOING as it roams through the earth seeking whom it may devour.

Looking for a home, a temple, to dwell, bringing with it the lies of separation from God, and you would probabley be thinking it was YOU, simply because the mind of sin seeks for union, to become ONE with as it did in Adam.

The mind that awakens you to reality is Christ, so that even if you make your bed in hell (follow the mind of sin)  God has said I will never leave you nor forsake you.

Christ remains as always the All in All and God saw that reality in Adam when He said WHO TOLD YOU THAT.

Trust the ONE that is in you, hate is turned to love. You say hunger is in you, desire is in you, yes it is, because it is all about the need for SATISFACTION, and that lying mind ,the God of this world seeks for you to become satisfied with his kingdom in which he will be lord in you.

YOUR NEED IS FOR SATISFACTION, COMPLETE SATISFACTION. Found only in Christ,the glory of God

I had to come away from the dead letter pontificators with all there so-called wisdom, to find that it is indeed not far off.  

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Dave S
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Posted: Jun-26-05 at 5:43am | IP Logged  

What IS sin, anyway?

Connie

It is a lie that a  being is separated from the very source of it's being and it's complete union with that source.

IT wants to be the source and being the source, worshipped as the true source. It has been granted power for a season,but is NOT eternal. It's power is manifest in a place that is NOT eternal.

The true source sits in the eternal and laughs. In Him do we live and move and have our being. 

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Broken Link
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Posted: Jun-26-05 at 5:50am | IP Logged  

Quote:
Thats all I'm doing?

There is more to what you're doing than what you're doing?

      

Bill
theHarryTick™
heretic - n 1: a person who holds beliefs in conflict with the dogma of the church.
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Dave S
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Posted: Jun-26-05 at 5:57am | IP Logged  

<He only see CHRIST in me? If so, am I BEING CHRIST? >

Is there anything but CHRIST?  CHRIST is I AM.

You have dipped your toe in the waters,come, swim in the depths

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daniel
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Posted: Jun-26-05 at 8:52am | IP Logged  

Amen Dave S Christ is in everything and there is no escaping His love and grace.In Rom 8 it says that nothing can seperate us from the love of God.

Love in Christ Dan 

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KevinKim
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Posted: Jun-26-05 at 12:44pm | IP Logged  

Bill....maybe it is all I'm doing. I should've guessed by now that I
wasn't going to recieve an answer from you along the lines of "it
means you have not built character" or "your sinning" or "you are
dwelling in death..."

But by NOT fighting temptation due to a failure to realize where the
source of my true satisfaction is....aren't I WASTING TIME at the
least?

10:30 - 11:30 in the eyes of God..it's difficult for me to think that
he is more oblivious to my actions that I am. That's why I'm so
drawn to try and identify something really bad about this period of
time, whether its "turning away" or "wasting time" or "failing to
realize His presence."

I WANT to blame myself....weird..I want to find a reason to correct
myself..(I'm examining my own thoughts through this process....)

But Im starting to see that perhaps its this religiosity, this belief
about God.. that is keeping me from swimming in the depth dave.

I feel like I'm jumping into a new reality...escaping the matrix. I am
not kidding folks the last two years of my life has been like this.
Before coming to the shovel God was showing me the futility of
"trying"..what is he trying to do!!! :)





Edited by KevinKim on Jun-26-05 at 12:46pm
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Rest and Trust
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Posted: Jun-26-05 at 1:39pm | IP Logged  

I lean in the direction of the view that sin is anything that is not of or produced from faith in the Spirit of God through Jesus Christ.

When a born-again person finds themself sinning, it is no longer that person sinning but it is a residue (or baggage) that continues to be active in that persons flesh. (Flesh being mental thoughts, emotions, words and actions) The responsibility of the active residue of sin that continues to operate in that persons flesh is due to their old man. When you become born-again by the Spirit of God the old man automatically becomes crucified with Christ.  It is the old man who originally generated and perpetuated the sin in a born-again person. There are many ways the old man could have generated sin. A few examples of how the old man generated and perpetuated sin might be- by allowing the flesh to be available to the antichrist spirit, allowing the flesh to be available to only live in the desires of what tempts the eyes, what the flesh craves and or ego/pride-trips or simply living in the sins/habits that are passed down throughout many generations from their ancestors (religous and/or secular). But the bottom line to this post is that the judgement, guilt, shame and condemnation for the sins of the born-again persons old man are passed onto Jesus Christ at his crucifixion. So the old man and his habits (even though they continue to be active) are all judged and condemned by being crucified with Jesus Christ at the Cross. Whenever the born-again person feels and/or believes that they are condemned they are refusing the reality of what Jesus did at the cross.

This line of reasoning might lead one to question what do you do about the active fleshly-residue after becoming born-again? The born-again person now has the freedom to offer the facility of flesh to He who has joined His Spirit to that born-again persons spirit. It is no longer the old man that is alive but the Jesus Christ Spirit who is alive in us.      

 

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Dave S
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Posted: Jun-26-05 at 1:51pm | IP Logged  

<But by NOT fighting temptation due to a failure to realize where the
source of my true satisfaction is....aren't I WASTING TIME at the
least?>

yup, according to one mind you are very much wasting your time,

Soooo lets both you and I grab a couple of swords, run those soldiers through and rescue that nice Jesus and keep Him in hiding and all live happily everafter.

And so keep "SIN " alive for evermore.

To fight against the thing that enslaves is to recognise it to be real and thus empower it.

How can perfection be perfected, yet the "matrix" will tell you to become more perfect by giving up imperfections,

I got good news for ya brother, ain't no imperfections OR failures only SEEMINGLY, by a lying mind that cannot EVER understand God's perfection.

The question you have running through is, is the appearance of things the reality of things.

You tell me, is Adam,s perception of himself naked and ashamed the reality. 

 Or has Christ not come to smash that perception.

If that perception remains alive, then it remains alive in it's domain, as you would call,"the matrix". Once I was alive in (the domain of) sin and death. BUT NOW !!

Christ is in His domain and you are awaking to that reality. That where I am, there they will also be.

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Dave S
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Posted: Jun-26-05 at 2:09pm | IP Logged  

So the old man and his habits (even though they continue to be active) are all judged and condemned by being crucified with Jesus Christ at the Cross. Whenever the born-again person feels and/or believes that they are condemned they are refusing the reality of what Jesus did at the cross.>

All good I.C stuff and the introduction of the double minded man who is unstable in all ways.The old man is dead but the habits remain alive. Do me a favor

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Connie
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Posted: Jun-26-05 at 2:49pm | IP Logged  

 The only thing to do with a stinky, ugly, deteriorating body is bury it.  Put it out of sight and go on. 



      

Connie
"Wow!It's so bright in here!"
II Cor.4:5-6

    
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Mercy Man
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Posted: Jun-26-05 at 2:59pm | IP Logged  

Just a question, Dave. What if what you are preaching, despite the poetic/prophetic/cryptic/eclectic tone and form, is just plain wrong? What if the reality you are espousing is but shadow, and what you are proclaiming as but shadow, is truth. Is that possible? Or do you believe that you are so One with the I AM in your mind that this is not possible?

      

He has made us Accepted in the Beloved
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mcdave
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Posted: Jun-26-05 at 3:14pm | IP Logged  

Dave S wrote:

So the old man and his habits (even though they
continue to be active) are all judged and condemned by being crucified
with Jesus Christ at the Cross. Whenever the born-again person feels
and/or believes that they are condemned they are refusing the reality of
what Jesus did at the cross.>


All good I.C stuff and the introduction of the double minded man who
is unstable in all ways.The old man is dead but the habits remain alive.
Do me a favor


 



dave it is so great to see you posting again.thanks so
much for the focus of Christ in us as our Hope and away from the shadow
of the old way of measuring up.only one man was or ever will be able to
live a "sinless" life and our hope and trust is found in him and him alone.

Edited by mcdave on Jun-26-05 at 3:31pm


      

     It's not works,it's coffee.
   

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mary
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Posted: Jun-26-05 at 3:20pm | IP Logged  

Dave S,

Just checked in this afternoon.   (your posts) SPIRIT and LIFE brings
tears to my eyes. Christ our hope, Christ our LIFE. The very
blessed and real reality!

      

Mary
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SETH_
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Posted: Jun-27-05 at 2:09am | IP Logged  

Mercy Man wrote:
Just a question, Dave. What if what you are preaching, despite the poetic/prophetic/cryptic/eclectic tone and form, is just plain wrong? What if the reality you are espousing is but shadow, and what you are proclaiming as but shadow, is truth. Is that possible? Or do you believe that you are so One with the I AM in your mind that this is not possible?

Dave i would really like to see you answer this! WHAT IF WHAT YOU BELIEVE IS A LIE? (...and it is)

how convenient, you can sin but not really care about it  cos it's  a lie. Or you can sin, but that's not sin cos nothing can come between us and God right? HOW CONVENIENT! oh, oh so to believe that sin exists is a sin. PLEASE, you can convince your mind and others but souls cry out for help when sunk in sin and cut from the source of life (not because Christ isnt there knocking on the door, but cos we like darkness better than light)

what if you have believed that lie and sunk deeper and deeper in that water and just the idea of that being a lie terrifies you cos you are so deep in it and you want to drag others down with you!

and you know what just amazes me? how us human beings LOVE to believe in anything that can justify OUR selfish life.

 

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the shovel
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Posted: Jun-27-05 at 3:06am | IP Logged  

"For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.  Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.  Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.  Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation." (2 Cor 5:14-19)

The wisdom of the flesh considers all things according to the flesh ... it cannot tolerate any who will not join in with its fleshly judgments or answer its fleshly questions and demands about sin. Build a case according to sin and sin is what will be seen and forced upon all others. For myself, I have determined to know nothing among you except Christ and him crucified. You who do desire to join together in unity according to fleshly wisdom, no matter how spiritual or Biblical sounding, can bark and howl all you want ... just do it somewhere else.

Jim


      

DIGGIN'THE LIFE!
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SETH_
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Posted: Jun-27-05 at 3:34am | IP Logged  

the shovel wrote:
"For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.  Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.  Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.  Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation." (2 Cor 5:14-19)

The wisdom of the flesh considers all things according to the flesh ... it cannot tolerate any who will not join in with its fleshly judgments or answer its fleshly questions and demands about sin. Build a case according to sin and sin is what will be seen and forced upon all others. For myself, I have determined to know nothing among you except Christ and him crucified. You who do desire to join together in unity according to fleshly wisdom, no matter how spiritual or Biblical sounding, can bark and howl all you want ... just do it somewhere else.

Jim

Jim,

do you think when Paul sais "not counting their trespasses against them" meant He never intended to change their tresspassing?

"reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation" Jim, does this mean that even if someone refuses "the ministry of reconcfiliation" he is  still reconciled?

although i agree  that judging according to the flesh is legalistic/not christian/pharissaic.... do you think temptation doesnt exist? do you think running after the flesh or giving in to its desires doesnt have consquences on the soul and the reconciliation with God?

one last question: dont you think that if we want to join in unity (not according to the flesh but Christ) there wouldnt be give and take and interaction, dont you think we need each other, including each others correction, prayer, rebuke and encouragement? dont you agree that Love is caring and cares enough to invite people to a better place, even if that means giving up things that are dear to our selfish and fleshy self...? do you think flesh and spirit are two seperate things and one doesnt affect the other?

 



Edited by SETH_ on Jun-27-05 at 3:36am
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mcdave
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Posted: Jun-27-05 at 9:34am | IP Logged  

Seth,

I noticed you highlighted the word IF (we are in Christ) when you copied
Jims post ,perhaps that is the crux of the discussion we could focus on.at
what point does one become IN Christ?at salvation?At baptism?and once
we are in Christ can we separate ourselves from Him?
Paul says in colossians 1
21Once you were alienated from God and were
enemies in your
minds
because of[f] your evil behavior. 22But now he has reconciled you by
Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight,
without blemish and free from accusation— 23if you continue in your
faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the
gospel.
      so if we lose "faith does he leave us?isn't he Christ the author
and
finisher of our faith?
paul says in galatians 2
20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ
lives
in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who
loved me and gave himself for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God,
for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for
nothing!"
so if we HAVE been crucified with Christ are we dead in him
forever or do
we ressurect the old man and have to be crucified all over?
paul says in romans 6
    5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will
certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that
our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done
away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because
anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

    8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die
again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he
died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

    11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in
Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that
you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as
instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those
who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your
body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your
master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

when he says "count yourselves dead to sin" the greek word count
actually means to take account of a fact that has already happened,so if
we are to take account that we ARE dead to sin already where is the sin
coming from?
i am not saying that as we live in a fleshly body here on earth we do not
encounter "sin" nor do i think anyone here is trying to use grace as an
excuse to sin.in fact paul himself says right after saying in chapter 5 that




17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through
that one
man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of
grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man,
Jesus Christ.

    18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation
for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification
that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the
one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of
the one man the many will be made righteous.

    20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where
sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned
in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring
eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

this is grace but he adds in chapter 6 does this mean the more we
sin the
more God likes it ? and he adds in the greek Megginoito(my spelling is
probably wrong ) but basically that means Hell no!


Law sin and grace are not the issues as much as how do we look at life in
light of them?do we look at life in the physical body from the mindset of
being identified with Christs death and being in Him or do we look at life
identifing with Adams sin and the flesh issues that come with that?

Edited by mcdave on Jun-27-05 at 9:37am


      

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SETH_
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Posted: Jun-27-05 at 10:00am | IP Logged  

mcdave wrote:
Seth,

I noticed you highlighted the word IF (we are in Christ) when you copied
Jims post ,perhaps that is the crux of the discussion we could focus on.at
what point does one become IN Christ?at salvation?At baptism?and once
we are in Christ can we separate ourselves from Him?

i did that for the people who believe in UR

but about your questions:

we are in Christ when we believe that He is our saviour

can we seperate ourselves? He doesnt leave us until the end He might stop protecting us sometimes to teach us a few lessons, that doesnt mean he leaves His sheep. BUT we can refuse Him and/or fall asleep and that is what Peter warns us about in his letters (especially the 1st). if we leave Him we might get lost, but He will always give us second chances until death (physical death and/or His second coming)

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Joyce
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Posted: Jun-27-05 at 10:44am | IP Logged  

 

I see several types here in the discussion.  There are those truly struggling and seeking in the area of "sin".  There are those who seem to indicate that struggling with it is a way of life for them and promote the "focus on and fighting against" of it all.  There are others who have come to understand after much seeking on our own what actually has been accomplished through Christ, have taken Him at His word, and have seen in the believing and in the changed mind that it is as He says it is. 

Joyce

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mcdave
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Posted: Jun-27-05 at 10:58am | IP Logged  

SETH_ wrote:


i did that for the people who believe in UR

but about your questions:

we are in Christ when we believe that He is our saviour

can we seperate ourselves? He doesnt leave us until the end He might stop protecting us sometimes to teach us a few lessons, that doesnt mean he leaves His sheep. BUT we can refuse Him and/or fall asleep and that is what Peter warns us about in his letters (especially the 1st). if we leave Him we might get lost, but He will always give us second chances until death (physical death and/or His second coming)



 no big disagreements on anything you said here seth.I get frustrated sometimes with the UR folks too.you know though that this isn't a ur site?


Edited by mcdave on Jun-27-05 at 10:59am


      

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Mercy Man
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Posted: Jun-27-05 at 12:22pm | IP Logged  

My wife told me, "There's something not right with you. I want you to go see the doctor, and get a thorough physical."

She even backed up her "claims" with the medical encyclopedia, trying to convince me that some of my "symptoms" may indicate a "problem".

At best, her concern was misplaced. More than likely, she was just trying to aggravate me, probably because of issues in her own life, and even likely getting back at me for taking up too much mirror time with my daily affirmations. Strange as it may seem, some people just don't appreciate the value of chanting "I feel good, I feel great, I feel wonderful" while staring at your third eye in the mirror.

Her constant pleading really irritated me, and caused me no small amount of distress. Like a barking dog or a dripping faucet, she was starting to make me lose my precious place of inner serenity.

I talked with a good friend about my terrible plight. Being very wise in this regard, he gave me the solution I wanted to hear. His plan would address the two birds digging in my garden: It would placate my wife's fears and restore me to that place of inner tranquility.

I announced to my wife that I was indeed going to go to the doctor for the thorough physical she desired for me.

She responded "Great, I'll make an appointment with Doctor Jones for you."

"No need," I quipped. "I have already booked an appointment with Dr. Bilboo."

"Dr. Bilboo?" my wife questioned. "Who in the world is that?"

"Dr. Bilboo is my friend Tom Smith's doctor," I replied. "He is very good at what he does."

"Tom Smith? Isn't that the fellow who lost his leg last year because of an untreated infection?" my wife responded.

"Yeah, so?" I retorted.

"Was he under Dr. Bilboo's care before or after the gangrene ate his leg?" my wife questioned.

I was able to nip the situation in the bud by telling her, "Look! You wanted me to go see a doctor, and Dr. Bilboo is very good at what he does. Now give it a rest!"

I finally went to see Doctor Bilboo, and everything went just how my friend assured me it would. Dr. Bilboo asked me to tap the top of my head, wiggle my nose, and say "Shazbut". After I demonstrated that I was indeed able to comply with these requests, He proclaimed in a loud voice, "I declare, as a certified medical practitioner, that you are, beyond any shadow of a doubt, 100%, AAA, healthy! And don't let anybody tell you any different!"

For my wife's sake I got him to write his proclamation on a form, and he even sealed it with a big happy face sticker.

Thanks to my friend, and Dr. Bilboo, I know that my wife will be put in her place (after all, who can disagree with a doctor in matters of health), and I will be able to return to my place of inner peace and not give one more moment's thought to any stinkin' thinkin' that something might not be right with me.




Edited by Mercy Man on Jun-27-05 at 5:29pm


      

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Connie
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Posted: Jun-27-05 at 12:38pm | IP Logged  

 Mercy Man,

that's such a weird story. Why don't you just come out and say what you want to say plainly? 



      

Connie
"Wow!It's so bright in here!"
II Cor.4:5-6

    
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mart1
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Mercy Man, i would hope that you and your wife shared a place of inner tranquility together.
What do want your marriage to become?
mart


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Dave S
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Posted: Jun-27-05 at 3:10pm | IP Logged  

Mercy Man wrote:
Just a question, Dave. What if what you are preaching, despite the poetic/prophetic/cryptic/eclectic tone and form, is just plain wrong? What if the reality you are espousing is but shadow, and what you are proclaiming as but shadow, is truth. Is that possible? Or do you believe that you are so One with the I AM in your mind that this is not possible?

Is there any possibility that the fact you are drawing breath may be wrong, or would you KNOW it.

Then I say to you to KNOW God is to KNOW HIM, is that cryptic enough for you

If one is not ONE with I AM, then just who would one be ONE with

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Mercy Man
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Posted: Jun-27-05 at 3:28pm | IP Logged  

Dave, if your spirit is united with God's Spirit, does that necessarily mean that everything that you think in your mind and declare with your mouth is the oracles of God? Is it not possible that any of us can believe something, because, at its core, it's what we choose to believe, whether or not what we are holding to has its source in Truth? Do you really think it is a matter of "If I was wrong, I would just know it." Isn't that the same as saying "I can't be wrong"? Just some thoughts.    

Edited by Mercy Man on Jun-27-05 at 3:53pm


      

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Dave S
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Posted: Jun-27-05 at 3:34pm | IP Logged  

<how us human beings LOVE to believe in anything that can justify OUR selfish life.>

YOU SAID IT and you are very much immersed in YOUR self life, which is not possible to be anything other than selfish. With all the sin you constantly refer to and juggle with, but just won't go away, never understanding that it's removal is as far from the east to the west. Are you "wrong" , No , you are free to be just where you are IN right and wrong, as I AM free to be IN I AM 

Moreover, there are those whom have been  immersed into His LIFE, by fire and water,selfish also, for I hear only the voice of my Father and do the will of my Father. My Father and I are ONE as it has been written, so it is fulfilled

 

 

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PeteNZ
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Posted: Jun-27-05 at 3:51pm | IP Logged  

Mercy Man....I love the parable ! 

-Pete

---------------------------------------

Somebody once said to me:
"You know what you know...but that's all you know."



      

Pete
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Dave S
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Posted: Jun-27-05 at 3:56pm | IP Logged  

Mercy Man wrote:
Dave, if your spirit is united with God's Spirit, does that necessarily mean that everything that you think in your mind and declare with your mouth is the oracles of God? Is it not possible that any of us can believe something, because, at its core, it's what we choose to believe, whether or not what we are holding to has its source in Truth? Just some thoughts.    

There is but ONE true SPIRIT and one true mind. To be in that Spirit is to be of the mind of that Spirit, because it would be a Spiritual Mind,and if that Mind desired to speak,then so let it speak.

Likewise if that Mind were to speak how could it speak of anything BUT the oracles of God, being the Mind of God.

As it is written, how blessed are the feet of those that preach the gospel of good news, and why? because God is blessed for evermore, as is the mind of God which so richly dwells in all whom believe.

Blessed are the meek etc. and WHY, WHY, WHY.

 

 

 

ON ACCOUNT OF THE BLESSEDNESS THAT WOULD DWELL SO RICHLY WITHIN THEM.

Blessed be the name of my Lord and my God 

 

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the shovel
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Posted: Jun-27-05 at 5:29pm | IP Logged  

SETH_ wrote:
Jim, do you think when Paul sais "not counting their trespasses against them" meant He never intended to change their tresspassing?

"reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation" Jim, does this mean that even if someone refuses "the ministry of reconcfiliation" he is  still reconciled?


Why would any of this be an issue to those who are in Christ?  Why would you even be considering technicalities that might alter the intended force of his grace instead of simply recognizing the amazing shift that has taken place in Christ, a shift that has smashed our former estimation of all things?  "Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh"  Where do we get off trying to estimate anyone according to the flesh anymore?  If we know that the whole basis of judgment according to sin and flesh is a dead issue through Christ then what possible rationale do we employ to find new ways to judge by it?

When McDave commented on your highlighting of the "IF" you responded: "i did that for the people who believe in UR".  Perhaps if you had done it for yourself you might not have overlooked the incredible life and grace made known to those who are in Christ.  Perhaps you would then find confidence concerning the finality of sin's condemnation as you refuse to hold anyone's sin against them ... including against yourself.

SETH_ wrote:
although i agree  that judging according to the flesh is legalistic/not christian/pharissaic.... do you think temptation doesnt exist? do you think running after the flesh or giving in to its desires doesnt have consquences on the soul and the reconciliation with God?

Of course temptation exists ... of course running after the flesh has consequences.  It stands before us calling our name insisting that we estimate ourselves and each other according to the flesh so that we might think we can find life in its bosom.  It is such a pathetic voice, for it calls from the same grave from which we arose.  But it often succeeds in pulling us into its lie.  Nevertheless, our God will even work all those things for good towards us.  And no, that is not an excuse ... it is a promise!

Quote:
one last question: dont you think that if we want to join in unity (not according to the flesh but Christ) there wouldnt be give and take and interaction, dont you think we need each other, including each others correction, prayer, rebuke and encouragement? dont you agree that Love is caring and cares enough to invite people to a better place, even if that means giving up things that are dear to our selfish and fleshy self...? do you think flesh and spirit are two seperate things and one doesnt affect the other?


If you were to listen with the ears of the Spirit you would hear the ongoing give and take interaction one with another.  Those who judge according to sin and flesh are never satisfied with living interaction for they are not happy unless others are caught up in the same condemnation cycle.  You may have heard the statement, "If momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy", but we got a new momma who doesn't play those games anymore!

Jim


      

DIGGIN'THE LIFE!
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Rest and Trust
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Posted: Jun-28-05 at 12:07am | IP Logged  

Hey Mercy Man, hilarious story Sounds like the Chiropractic doctor that I go to, only my doctors method of choice is rattling chicken bones over my head............

But seriously, I do go to a doctor who prefers holistic medicine over conventional. This doctor is also heavily into eastern mysticism and he talks to some spirit the whole time he is attempting to diagnose me. He reminds me a little of your Dr. Bilboo. But does he ever know how to get a person into adjustment. I recommend him highly.

 

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Rest and Trust
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Posted: Jun-28-05 at 12:33am | IP Logged  

mcdave wrote:
Seth,

I noticed you highlighted the word IF (we are in Christ) when you copied
Jims post ,perhaps that is the crux of the discussion we could focus on.at
what point does one become IN Christ?at salvation?At baptism?and once
we are in Christ can we separate ourselves from Him?
Paul says in colossians 1
21Once you were alienated from God and were
enemies in your
minds
because of[f] your evil behavior. 22But now he has reconciled you by
Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight,
without blemish and free from accusation— 23if you continue in your
faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the
gospel.
      so if we lose "faith does he leave us?isn't he Christ the author
and
finisher of our faith?
paul says in galatians 2
20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ
lives
in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who
loved me and gave himself for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God,
for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for
nothing!"
so if we HAVE been crucified with Christ are we dead in him
forever or do
we ressurect the old man and have to be crucified all over?
paul says in romans 6
    5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will
certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that
our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done
away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because
anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

    8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die
again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he
died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

    11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in
Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that
you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as
instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those
who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your
body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your
master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

when he says "count yourselves dead to sin" the greek word count
actually means to take account of a fact that has already happened,so if
we are to take account that we ARE dead to sin already where is the sin
coming from?
i am not saying that as we live in a fleshly body here on earth we do not
encounter "sin" nor do i think anyone here is trying to use grace as an
excuse to sin.in fact paul himself says right after saying in chapter 5 that




17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through
that one
man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of
grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man,
Jesus Christ.

    18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation
for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification
that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the
one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of
the one man the many will be made righteous.

    20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where
sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned
in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring
eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

this is grace but he adds in chapter 6 does this mean the more we
sin the
more God likes it ? and he adds in the greek Megginoito(my spelling is
probably wrong ) but basically that means Hell no!


Law sin and grace are not the issues as much as how do we look at life in
light of them?do we look at life in the physical body from the mindset of
being identified with Christs death and being in Him or do we look at life
identifing with Adams sin and the flesh issues that come with that?

I really appreciated what you said here Dave.

I would like to tell you a little about me wiht the desire for a little understanding and unity.

Right or wrong I have often jumped to the defense of others in my life. It almost cost me my (physical) life many years ago when I came to the defence of a lady who was being gang raped. And there has been many other times in my life when I risked serious bodily injury to myself for the defence of others. I don't know why this type of thing runs so deep in me in this way. But I also know that it could be possible that I can get carried away on the internet. So if I am a little extreme in this way at times I hope this helps you to understand me a little better.

Joe     



Edited by Rest and Trust on Jun-28-05 at 12:38am
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luvin
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Posted: Jun-28-05 at 12:44am | IP Logged  

Hey Joe give me the chicken bone guys #......
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mcdave
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Posted: Jun-28-05 at 8:06am | IP Logged  

Joe,

 From one who jumps in a bit too soon at times to another. i know where you are coming from my brother


      

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Broken Link
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Posted: Jun-28-05 at 8:40am | IP Logged  

Mercy Man wrote:
Dave, if your spirit is united with God's Spirit, does that necessarily
mean that everything that you think in your mind and declare with your mouth is the oracles of God? Is it not possible that any of us can believe something, because, at its core, it's what we choose to believe, whether or not what we are holding to has its source in Truth? Do you really think it is a matter of "If I was wrong, I would just know it." Isn't that the same as saying "I can't be wrong"? Just some thoughts.    

It's odd that you never hear this from people who are unsure of what the right answer is, or people who plain, flat-out know they don't know the answer. You always hear it from those who are sure they know the answer and are sure that others don't.

Just some more thoughts.

      

Bill
theHarryTick™
heretic - n 1: a person who holds beliefs in conflict with the dogma of the church.
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Tripp
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Posted: Jun-28-05 at 10:41am | IP Logged  

the shovel wrote:

If you were to listen with the ears of the Spirit you would hear the ongoing give and take interaction one with another.  Those who judge according to sin and flesh are never satisfied with living interaction for they are not happy unless others are caught up in the same condemnation cycle.  You may have heard the statement, "If momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy", but we got a new momma who doesn't play those games anymore! Jim


Amen to a New Momma!!!

tripp
 

      

Gal 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
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