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Ministry/Church Related
 Shovel Shack : Ministry/Church Related
Subject Topic: whats worse
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rickh
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Posted: Jan-23-08 at 6:03pm | IP Logged  

Somethings been bugging me.  Now I want to preempt my next few statements with, I agree with what is said about the I.C., but I also have questions and I want it understood I'm not defending the I.C..

Alot of I.C. "bashing" if you will, goes on here, and I understand it. What I wonder is, whats worse, the wednesday and sunday going, bible thumping christian who is always in praise and joy this and joy that and always seems "happy".  And the millions of people who go to church, believe in the building, "church", the sunday thing, all the pastors that preach legalism, and you gotta do this and that to be saved. And these people may not get it, but are they "worse" (and i know im gonna get bashed for using this comparison word, worse ) than the people saaay, atheists, "men of science", taliban, nazis, gangsters, murderers, rapists, pedofiles, communists, etc.....? 

Now, my question is this, part two I guess, does religion being as horrible as it is create these other monsters or do these monsters create religion or what?

I think I'd rather be trapped on an island with some religious nuts then some child killing criminals I read about in the paper. Or is there no difference?  Did religion make him a child killer or lack there of?  hmmmmmmmmmmm.    I know the I.C. is B.S. but aren't the other criminal elements of the human race outside the I.C. just as bad or worse?  What do we say about them?

Sorry if this is harsh, just something bugging me.  There it is.  Whats worse?

Shoulda put this under ministry/church related I guess, sorry. Whoever knows how can move it if they want.



Edited by rickh on Jan-23-08 at 6:05pm


      

rick
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wrabhit
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Posted: Jan-24-08 at 6:47am | IP Logged  

No one in this world gets away from religion and what it says, whether you go to church or not. If it's not heaven you're trying to reach, it's something else - self fulfillment, health, whatever. That lack of contentment can drive people to do all kinds of crazy shit. We think we need something, we gotta fight other people for it cos there's not enough...

And come on, we know Jesus chose to hang out with whores and drinkers, rather than the religious nuts ;) Maybe that means something.
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mary
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Posted: Jan-24-08 at 8:05am | IP Logged  


    Well said, wrabhit!  

    


      

Mary
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ShannonC
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Posted: Jan-24-08 at 9:08am | IP Logged  

rickh wrote:

Now, my question is this, part two I guess, does religion being as horrible as it is create these other monsters or do these monsters create religion or what?

I think I'd rather be trapped on an island with some religious nuts then some child killing criminals I read about in the paper. Or is there no difference?  Did religion make him a child killer or lack there of?  hmmmmmmmmmmm.    I know the I.C. is B.S. but aren't the other criminal elements of the human race outside the I.C. just as bad or worse?  What do we say about them?

 

I don't know about what makes a criminal.  I've thought of that often myself, especially considering the guy who just recently "allegedly" murdered four of his children here in my area.

Now, after pondering your questions, these are my conclusions:

1. Yes.  I agree with you, I think I would rather be trappd on an island with a religious nut than with say a criminal or someone who would hurt a child, etc. just because it would probably be safer unless of course their religion says, "kill".  Let me put it this way,I'd probably be safe with most Southern Baptist (then again, look at how many pedofiles, etc. sit next to any one person on any given Sunday).

2. Now, a second part to that is this - has the criminal come to a realization of the grace and forgiveness of Christ?  Is Christ in Him?  Does he now see who he is and no longer live the life of death?  Well, then I may have more to talk to him or her about than the "religious" person who still relies on himself/herself rather than Christ.

The bottom line (sort of...I have lots of thoughts on this, but I'm at work and I don't have much time) is this - I believe I qualify people, I categorize people because it makes life easier to live.  I have to know, because of a God-given instinct to stay away from anyone who would harm me or my family.  So, I "qualify" I "judge".  But when all is said and done, what does God say about it all?

Sheep to the right, goats to the left.....I don't always know who are the sheep and who are the goats!! Christ knows who are His.

I started to take that last statement out because I don't think I convey what I am trying to say, but, alas, not sure how to say it...Oh, well, y'all know my heart, I think...



Edited by ShannonC on Jan-24-08 at 2:46pm


      

ShannonC
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Rest and Trust
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Posted: Jan-24-08 at 9:48am | IP Logged  

Its interesting, often when this subject comes up in conversation (usually because of a distasteful encounter with legalistic, religous type people) I make a similar point- "wouldn't you rather have as a neighbor- church going family over a biker-gang club".

But all of these types flocked to Jesus; Nicodemus, Mary Magdalene, Mathew (the tax collector), Roman soldiers, the criminal on the cross next to Him. I believe they all have one thing in common- the desire for life and freedom from everything that hinders life.   

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ShannonC
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Posted: Jan-24-08 at 10:16am | IP Logged  

I want to also echo what others say....Jesus hung out with the "underbellies"  

      

ShannonC
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_Jason_
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Posted: Jan-24-08 at 2:11pm | IP Logged  

What comes to my mind doesn't answer your questions, rick; but, it's just what popped into my head.

On one hand, Paul said something to the effect of not knowing anyone according to the flesh anymore (or something like that). Not sure if that has any application here, but again, that was what came to mind.

On the the other hand, I tend to agree with what others have stated; I THINK I would rather have a church-going family living next door, than a biker gang, especially if they were of the criminal persuasion - the bikers that is ). As far as who I'd rather be trapped on a deserted island with, I'm still thinking it over.

Jason


      

"Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver." - Jason from AL
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Broken Link
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Posted: Jan-24-08 at 5:05pm | IP Logged  

Wouldn't these all be valuations of the flesh? I mean, if we're going to focus on whose behavior is more palatable or desired...

Regarding my neighborhood, I'd certainly want the church-going family because it is the appearance that affects my property values. Let's face it, a yard full of choppers and men with beards and leather vests do not create an inviting picture into a neighborhood.

As far as the desert island, since I'm being given a choice, I'd prefer whichever I would be able to get along with.



      

Bill
theHarryTick™
heretic - n 1: a person who holds beliefs in conflict with the dogma of the church.
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rickh
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Posted: Jan-24-08 at 7:02pm | IP Logged  

I thought the "Jesus hung out with sinners" thing would come up, and I know that, but He also hung out with the pharisees even if it was to tell them they were full of shit.  I'm also pretty sure those "sinners" probably went back to thieving and whoring or whatever after they were forgiven. Hence the whole point.

I guess what my point was, is the i.c. to blame for everything? Maybe so if like wrabhit said, religion is the cause of all invalidation. So the ic would be the godfather of suffering then? (not a rhetorical or sarcastic question by the way).

I know I've found life in some unusual characters (myself included) and places but I've also witnessed death, some harmless and some not so. 

What I'm seeing it boil down to is and individual basis and like Bill stated, who you get along with better.  Buuut, I've also butted heads with many people that I've ended up getting along better with later. Go figure.

Great responses all.  Thanks for sharing.



      

rick
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luvin
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Posted: Jan-24-08 at 8:22pm | IP Logged  

Yeah,

I can not any longer determine who is going to be what any longer. Some people are really easy to get along with and might even work in a "legalistic" church setting. They might not even be able to be judged one way or another. Others can very self-riteous and seem to have spider webbs built in to every conversation you have with them and yet on the outside appear to be "the bikers" and the whoring and drinking type. To me it just really isn't always important. I just know I can no longer go seeking out the person of Christ in the flesh anymore. That I do know.



      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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BobB
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Posted: Jan-25-08 at 8:56pm | IP Logged  

We're all in it together. Each one of us has dished out our share of bull to one another. So now that were all even, acceptance should seem simple enough, and clearly obvious. Instead we are set against each other, not realizing were in it together. IC and biker people can be equally nasty as nice. I'm glad christ accepts all, for you are all and I am all. We all represent one another, and Christ represents us. Gotta go ....



      

friend of sinners
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mary
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Posted: Jan-28-08 at 11:05am | IP Logged  


   Hi Rick,

       I'm not sure I read your question in its entirety until McDave downloaded it through his wi and I saw it on the t.v. (lol)

        Personally, I don't feel the IC is to "blame" for everything.  I guess when people are frustrated with the IC, having a reaction to it, or even posting frustrations about it, I see this as a place where they "can" do that.   

         That's simply where I was coming from jin response to wrabhit's - nothing more nothing less.

         


        


      

Mary
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dlinn94
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Posted: Jan-28-08 at 12:37pm | IP Logged  

Just a thought

Mmmmmmmm, regarding being trapped on an island with which group.  I guess my most recent thinking causes me to ask for God's help loving those in front of me, regardless of who they may be, even on an island.  It could be the cashier at check-out who seems to be moving slower than I like, the traffic that is slowing me from getting there,  the "church world" friend who doesn't understand why we left the Sunday morning thing and uses the language that we have fallen away but couches it with "we are just praying for you,"  and the neigbor who needs my help or time when I am doing whatever I deem important, and the list can be endless.

I also think that the perception of IC bashing is more "church world"  "church system" bashing, rather than those in the "system" who happen to be a part of, i.e our brothers and sisters in Christ, His body.   It is they who are precious and need defended, not the IC.  We tend to classify the two as one. 

Since 1970, I have been involed in 7 different IC, from Youth leader, to church board member, to elder, to "bench warmer."  We no longer attend but fellowship with many who do.  We love the Church, the body of Christ, but we no longer can attend the "church" the system, and to me there is a huge divide between the two.  I think God has His people inside the walls and His people outside the walls.  As for me and my house, we our outside the walls because this is the journey God has us on.  We could never go back.

Dave



      

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ShannonC
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Posted: Jan-28-08 at 1:04pm | IP Logged  

dlinn94 wrote:

I think God has His people inside the walls and His people outside the walls.  Dave

I like that.  I know I have met my brothers and sisters in what seemed to be the strangest places at times, sometime unexpectedly.  I know when I see Him in others, it makes my heart smile.



      

ShannonC
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rickh
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Posted: Jan-28-08 at 4:49pm | IP Logged  

 

      



      

rick
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