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The Stuff of Grace
 Shovel Shack : The Stuff of Grace
Subject Topic: A Rule and a Habbit
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Chickenlips
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Posted: Apr-08-07 at 1:38pm | IP Logged  

I've been really busy both with travel and other crisis on my life so I haven't had much time to visit the Shack.  But this morning I had some time so I thought I would throw in my two cents on this post. Remember, you don't get much for 2 cents! 

I think when we are talking about this topic,  it is important to remember that there really IS such a thing as good and evil.  Remember that the the fall of man in Genesis us an ability to judge something for which we have no context.  The Lord is the only one who has context for it, so therefore He can judge it.  But by the same token, as He judges good and evil and He passes His perspective on to us.  Therefore we CAN judge good and evil, as Christ judges it through us, but it is not us doing it, but Christ through us.  Paul said this. 

Do you not know that the saints shall judge the world? And if the world shall be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know that we shall judge angels, not to mention the things of this life? If, then, you truly have judgments of the things of this life, set those who are least esteemed in the church to judge. For I speak to your shame. Is it so that there is not a wise one among you, not even one in your midst who shall be able to judge between his brother? (1Co 6:2-5 MKJV)

One of the grave dangers I see in the deeper life/Christ life experience is that we use our understanding of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil as an excuse for our hang-ups and flesh patterns.  Are we saying that there is no such thing as a bad habit or there is nothing that is really bad?  Or are we really saying that judging good and bad is a bad thing to do?  This really is a slippery and deceptive form of backdoor judgment that stems from the same tree and we fall into exactly what we are trying to avoid!!! In reality I am still judging and there is NO life in ANY of it.     

If a habit is destructive, if it does not bring LIFE, then those who are in Christ have the ability THROUGH Christ to judge.  If I we see a brother who has the habit of beating his wife, or abusing his children, are we who are in Christ going to sit back and say, "I cannot judge whether that is a good or bad habit?"  If a sister is destroying herself through self abuse, are we going to say we cannot judge it? 

I was working with a woman who was caught up in the insanity of self abuse, and countless times I would find her BEATING her head against the wall, or against the floor: I often would catch her slapping herself in the face, or hitting herself in the head with a hammer... you name it.  It was a flesh pattern that had taken deep root that became a habitual pattern for dealing with stress.  Am I not suited to judge that as evil?  Now I am not going to talk about the path we had to walk for her to find freedom, that is another topic.  But when the Lord began to free her from her self destructive behavior patterns self abuse became less of a habit she opened her heart in HUGE ways to Christ and began to seek the Lord in and through all things -- am I not suited to judge that as good? 

Christ is the context for ALL judgment, but flesh CANNOT judge anything and get it right.  In fact, we could go so far as to say that flesh would go so far as to say that we cannot judge satan as evil!  Or else it will simply dismiss satan all together and say he does not exist. That is a major deception of the enemy that leaves us living in a deluded false reality. This mindset also leaves us having to either explain away, or totally ignore a large part of scripture.

Judging is dodgy business at best and it is with fear and trembling that we seek the Lord both before and as we judge.  Understand that I am NOT saying that there is any condemnation for those who are in Christ no matter what his or her bad habit is, good or bad.  There is NO condemnation...  but by the same token each one has to work out his or her OWN salvation with fear and trembling. 

I have the bad habit of judging judgmental people.   It is truly bad because the Lord has judged  it in me and I have a deep conviction from Him on this issue.  But I do not have condemnation for it.  In fact it is a weakness through which His strength is perfected. 

The real question to ask in judging ianything is, "Lord, IS there any LIFE in it?"  And then we wait upon the Lord to reveal TRUTH.  I trust His judgment...



Edited by Chickenlips on Apr-08-07 at 1:42pm


      

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Dave S
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What if God's judgements were according to righteousness, holiness and perfection? Would that not make God a Good God .

Would that make Life Good.

Whilst man's perception of good is according to a law or a standard, not of holiness but of morals and behaviour. Of which morals and behaviour a Law was given to Moses, of which no man, then and to this day could or can keep.

How then will the saints judge? If by the death of Jesus Christ this law is fulfilled by it's penalty and ONLY by it's penalty which is DEATH, the saints are left with one option, but to judge ALL things as GOOD. We who believe, have received this judgement with great joy and tears of gladness, for the judgement of God is upon and unto us.

For the unbeliever, he simply doesn't believe it, but does his unbelief make God's judgement null and void. Herein is the love of God manifest, whilst I was in a state of unbelief, which is a state of death and Adam's state, the judgement which WAS ACCORDING TO ADAM was upon me, one of shame and condemnation.

But God's judgement was always upon me whilst I was in unbelief and now by revelation of that true judgement, a believer in MY Holiness, Righteousness and Perfection.

The greatest danger and the misery of man is that the judgement of Adam is attributed to God. God is become a God of wrath, on Adam's perception of a crime and punishment mentality.

That lie, spawned in Adam, remains to this day and we may think that God has not lifted a finger to destroy that lie.

But we know of a Son in whom that lie IS DESTROYED and we know that GOD IS LOVE.

We will judge the LIE to be a LIE , then will the TRUE GOD, our TRUE GOD will be made known to all men.

The FIRST will be the LAST, not split down the middle.

I AM THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA.

I simply cannot wait for the day of judgement

 

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daniel
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Posted: Apr-08-07 at 10:00pm | IP Logged  

Thank God Jesus Christ took the judgement for us all.In John 12 Jesus said now judgement of this world has come.Now we are all under mercy and love.

Love in Christ Dan

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Joyce
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Posted: Apr-09-07 at 12:16am | IP Logged  

Mike,  Good to see you pop in when you can.  You often are a catalyst for interesting conversation here.  One thing that came to mind as I was reading was an honest question of.... I wonder why it was the tree of "knowledge of good and evil" that was the forbidden fruit?

With regard to what Dave S wrote, when reading about God's holiness vs morals and behavior, it makes me wonder if I understand what is meant by God's holiness and if I may still have the two intertwined, not really understanding what is meant by "holiness". 

Interesting point about the Alpha and Omega.  Yes it does seem that the "Adam/ good and evil' thing was sandwiched in between.  So that makes me think too.

Not sure I understand about the saints judging all as good unless it has something to do with the fact of God still being in control and His being Love and good. 

Thanks for all of this thought provoking dialogue.

Joyce



Edited by Joyce on Apr-09-07 at 12:30am
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Dave S
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Posted: Apr-09-07 at 9:28am | IP Logged  

Joyce

It IS written that the wrath of God shall be revealed against all ungodliness, but what is ungodliness, but the lie of a godliness imparted APART from God.

Is God's "wrath" upon Adam or upon the lie that deceived Adam.

United with the lie, the two became AS one and Adam concluded that "wrath" was upon HIM.

God, never argued with Adam nor fought to prove Adam wrong, but simply promised him a salvation from the "mind of a Godliness APART from God", which mind is the matrix of this world and hence the myriad of theological opinion spewed out like dog's vomit, all of course, based on a book and of course "of God"

I simply remind that there is NOTHING apart from God, nor do I argue or fight to prove it to any other. The cross has done it all.

Now we are APART from the lie, divorced from the union which spawned fear, confusion, uncertainty AND married to another, of which union, imparts of it's self holiness, righteousness, perfection and love, of which the Apostle continually reminded and said " DO as I DO  



Edited by Dave S on Apr-09-07 at 9:41am
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luvin
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It IS written that the wrath of God shall be revealed against all ungodliness, but what is ungodliness, but the lie of a godliness imparted APART from God.

Is God's "wrath" upon Adam or upon the lie that deceived Adam.-Dave S

 

Dave this is excellent!

Gods wrath was working against the fake!Ilove it!Gods wrath has always worked against the false empty things of man.



      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

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mary
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Posted: Apr-09-07 at 12:14pm | IP Logged  

[QUOTE=Dave S]


God, never argued with Adam nor fought to prove Adam wrong, but simply promised him a salvation from the "mind of a Godliness APART from God", which mind is the matrix of this world and hence the myriad of theological opinion spewed out like dog's vomit, all of course, based on a book and of course "of God"

    For sure!!!!



      

Mary
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Joyce
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Posted: Apr-09-07 at 10:12pm | IP Logged  

Dave S,

Have read your last two posts a couple of times and found them to be very good, helpful, thought provoking, etc.  The question though that they would raise though is.....  Did Christ die because of a LIE..... "the lie of a godliness imparted apart from God"?

I eagerly await your reply.  

Joyce



Edited by Joyce on Apr-09-07 at 10:18pm
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Chickenlips
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Posted: Apr-10-07 at 10:12am | IP Logged  

Joyce wrote:

...  One thing that came to mind as I was reading was an honest question of.... I wonder why it was the tree of "knowledge of good and evil" that was the forbidden fruit?

Joyce,

Good question Joyce.  Man's knowledge, or perception is distorted because of sin, therefore only God can truly judge.  We have an ability without God's context.  The lie that we bought into is that we would be LIKE God.  But we were already like God -- created in HIS image.  Satan always deceives us with the lie that "There is something more..." or "You are lacking..."  This knowledge that we now possess cannot be trusted.  There is only ONE whom we can trust. His judgments are right, pure, Holy and just.  The best of my assessments are distorted because of my humanity.  In other words I have a knowledge that I cannot handle -- but Christ through me can handle it.  I think Chirst gives us some insight into this...

I can do nothing of My own self. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of the Father who has sent Me. (Joh 5:30 MKJV)

You judge after the flesh, I judge no one. And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I and the Father who sent Me. (Joh 8:15-16 MKJV)

 



      

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luvin
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That battle with sin is over.

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

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mary
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    Indeed! 


      

Mary
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Joyce
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Mike, thanks for your response. 

For some reason when it comes to the Adam/fall/Cross thing, I get the feeling that I can't get all of the dots connected. I get mixed up with the understandings of different people.  Not sure I understand why the whole thing happened in the first place when everything seemed fine and there wasn't a problem in the garden to remedy before that. I mean, this whole thing is the main base thing of it all and I don't "get it".  It's all higher than my thinking ways.  I know all things work for the glory of God, so maybe that's it.  

Joyce



Edited by Joyce on Apr-10-07 at 5:54pm
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Dave S
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Joyce wrote:

Dave S,

Have read your last two posts a couple of times and found them to be very good, helpful, thought provoking, etc.  The question though that they would raise though is.....  Did Christ die because of a LIE..... "the lie of a godliness imparted apart from God"?

I eagerly await your reply.  

Joyce

Joyce

Consider Gethsemane,

Consider the sweating of drops of blood, a sure sign of monumental stress, of which I simply cannot utter a word of understanding, except to say, something horrendous,  of the most gigantic proportion is coming upon this innocent.

Men have suffered crucifiction before, and who will belittle crucifiction, but what is coming ALONG with the nails is something no man before or since has experienced.

What is coming will cause a cry of forsakedness.

What is coming will bring a complete understanding of separation, when all one has known is perfect joy of a perfect union.

What is coming is enough to long for an escape and yet a willingness to lay down a perfect union, written in the scriptures as life. But by me, as Life.

But what is coming will also be ended.

What is coming, for some will be debated about, studied, written about. Some will use the very thing which is coming AND to be ended, to try to understand what is shortly to come to pass in this dark hour.By using the fruit of this thing which is coming, will NEVER understand it's ending or it's finishing, proved by the fruit of fear, confusion and a longing for discovery which seems afar off.

I speak from experience, not a boast, but a fact, which I can boast in. 

Oh yes, what is coming will blacken the sky, extinguishing some thing that shines in the sky, as a shadow.

What is coming will set prisoners free, and I mean FREE.

What is coming which forged the chains wll forge no more.

What is coming will be denied by many who still are in union with what is coming. BUT for a little while.

But then they deny the ONE,  who, took into His very bosom that which is coming, how then can they see that it is ended.

What is coming has ears, eyes, and a mouth to speak and it appears to inhabit the earth.

I know it's seed, deep within it's heart lies an unsatisfaction which it covers ,just as one would use whitewash, for example to cover, let's say a sepulchre.

It uses a book, declaring the knowledge of the book, as it's righteousness.

Among it's many names and descriptions I favour "WHORE"

I know, I bedded it.

I know someone who bedded it. She said "I'll have you". He said "NO, I'll have YOU". Then you would know why Gethsemane. A union to destroy a union. TO FINISH IT.

Everyday I hear it's denial to me, that it's finished, BUT, I am a witness to it's finishing. I am of a body which has a mind. It is an eternal body. It cannot deny itself.

HE IS RISEN.

JUST WHO IS IT THAT DIED?

My heart aches for my brothers and sisters who get so entangled in the fruits of this beguiler, when a sword of a two edged nature has divided it asunder.

Of course non of the above drivel is scriptural. But hey, who cares!! The sword is fallen.

Enough for now. Love ya's 

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Chickenlips
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Joyce wrote:

Mike, thanks for your response. 

For some reason when it comes to the Adam/fall/Cross thing, I get the feeling that I can't get all of the dots connected. I get mixed up with the understandings of different people.  Not sure I understand why the whole thing happened in the first place when everything seemed fine and there wasn't a problem in the garden to remedy before that. I mean, this whole thing is the main base thing of it all and I don't "get it".  It's all higher than my thinking ways.  I know all things work for the glory of God, so maybe that's it.  

Joyce

 

I think God was addressing a bigger problem than just with the earth.  Consider Satan's fall and put it in this context and I think we begin to get an idea of God's purpose for life and for the earth.  It is not about our comfort and happiness.  It is about the glory and grace of God -- a divine statement if you will for all eternity -- to all created beings, not just humans.

I'll write more as I can.  No time now.

Shalom

Mike



      

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Joyce
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Posted: Apr-11-07 at 10:02pm | IP Logged  

Mike,

Thanks...  Worry about your "no time now". Know you are a very busy person. You seem to be a very giving person to all.  Hope you don't "burn out" with all you have to do.  (These statements probably come from the "Mom" in me.)  But hope you can find time to rest as well.

Joyce

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Joyce
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Dave S,

Thank you for your gracious reply.  I am taking some time to "read between the lines".... which is difficult since there are no words there.      Seriously, need to read a little more and think it through.   Thanks again.

Joyce

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Joyce
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Dave S,

Am just getting back to you on your April 10th post on this thread.  (Sorry, I'm really low tech and so don't know how to do things like the rest of you by putting quotes in boxes, etc.) 

Anyway, you said:  "A union to destroy a union."  It sounds like maybe you are saying that Christ on the cross became united to that which was of Adam in order for it to be killed in His death and brought to an end.  (?) 

You said, "Just who is it that died?"    Care to answer that in a straight forward manner? 

Or maybe, regarding your statement:  "...when a sword of a two edged nature has divided it asunder."  Sounds like maybe you are referring to where it says that the "Word is a two edged sword dividing asunder soul and spirit."  Could it be that His actually being pierced with a sword was representative in the physical happening, and a representation of what actually happened in the spiritual at that time, and that was that soul and spirit WERE torn asunder.... and now that that which was the "soulishness of Adam" HAS INDEED been totally separated (brought to a death) from that which is of the Spirit of God in Christ and that is what IS FINISHED, and that is why we are no longer in the Adam's state of sin, and that is why we are now of the New Creation that somehow happend at that point.  (?)

Marissa 

 



Edited by Joyce on Apr-18-07 at 9:10am
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Dave S
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You said, "Just who is it that died?"    Care to answer that in a straight forward manner? 

Marissa

From where I sit it, really appears to me that the answer is with you, the "soulishness of Adam".

<and that is why we are now of the New Creation that somehow happend at that point.  (?)>

Yes, and it is the miracle of what happened at that point that so immerses me, that my babbling is often only understood by me and I have learned to be content with that.

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Rest and Trust
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Dave S wrote:

Yes, and it is the miracle of what happened at that point that so immerses me, that my babbling is often only understood by me and I have learned to be content with that.

SHACK QUOTE!

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nyagali
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luvin wrote:

It is so much easier to see why Christ living in us would take a habbit away to show how spiritual we are than to struggle with having it in our lives and have to walk by faith that we are completely perfect in His sight.

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nyagali
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Ok, I'll get used to how to post on here.....I liked that quote, such truth, and yet so few of us see ourselves that way. Can you imagine living with the revelation of being perfect in His sight?

joy

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Joyce
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joy,

So good to have you posting here!  Hope for more soon as well.  Appreciate the question at the end of your post.... imagining living with the revelaion of being perfect in His sight.  Not sure of the context right now of the verse, but maybe that is what is meant that "he who is free is free indeed". 

Marissa

(Also, thanks Dave S for your comment.  May have more to say later...)



Edited by Joyce on Apr-21-07 at 8:06am
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nyagali
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Hi Joyce. I think there is an amazing mystery about "living IN Christ". I shared that quote with my husband because he is struggling greatly with quitting smoking too.....referring back to the habit conversation a while ago. He said that if we HAVE the life of Christ and we ARE new creations, one would think habits would fall away so easily. The drugs did for him, but this smoking has hung on so long and now affecting him physically so he has to quit, but can't seem to do it. We just have to be overwhelmed by the Lord I guess. I'm seeing how the physical body and the Spirit have to be joined. Where is the will and the mind in it all....what is just the physical part and how does God overwhelm that so we follow in faith? We can say we have faith, but faith can just be our will making the decision, it is very deceptive unless we have the sensitivity of the Spirit. It's a process to grow into and the only way to live without being caught in the world or in new age philosophies, that can appear so close to this mystery.
joy
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Chickenlips
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nyagali wrote:
I think there is an amazing mystery about "living IN Christ". I shared that quote with my husband because he is struggling greatly with quitting smoking too.....referring back to the habit conversation a while ago. He said that if we HAVE the life of Christ and we ARE new creations, one would think habits would fall away so easily. The drugs did for him, but this smoking has hung on so long and now affecting him physically so he has to quit, but can't seem to do it. We just have to be overwhelmed by the Lord I guess. I'm seeing how the physical body and the Spirit have to be joined. Where is the will and the mind in it all....

This so reminds of of Paul -- the thing that I don't want to do I do, and the thing that I want to do I don't do...  I can so relate to that with some issues in my own life.

The Lord has been showing me how there are times he lets the weeds in our lives grow until the fruit bearing plant is strong enough to handle the uprooting of the weed.  There are weeds in my life that He as left there until just recently.  I didn't even know they were issues anymore, I thought they had long ago disappeared.  But they were there all the time, I was just unaware.  Now He is dealing with those weeds because He knows the plant (life) is strong enough to handle the stress of having those deep rooted weeds uprooted.  I hate that process.  I would MUCH rather be left alone in my ignorant bliss.  But He knows what is best and He wants to eliminate that which is impeding my growth. 

I see the same thing with your husbands smoking issue.  He removed the things earlier in his life that He know would impeded maturing, but He left that which He knew would destroy the tiny tendril of faith.  He waited until the LIFE in your husband was mature enough to handle having that deep rooted thing removed.  The process is agonizing, terrifying, and mystifying all at the same time.  But it is proof your Husband's faith is DEEP and strong.  Jesus knows he is ready to handle the trial.  It is a testimony to his maturity my friend.  Be encouraged. 

Shalom!

p.s. Joyce, I am still planning to respond to what I wrote earlier -- I am just waiting for a time that i can enjoy the process rather than being rushed!  :)



Edited by Chickenlips on Apr-21-07 at 9:55am


      

Mike

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luvin
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Mike glad to hear from you.

 

But I think Paul was speaking of one under the LAW with his comments of lack of self control.I have had it preached over and over to me about the the "second phase of growth" as its taught.It has never sat well with me.It implies that we ourselves should just grow up.Im  not denying the reality of us needing growth christian or noncristian.BUt we forget that the point of the christian walk isnt getting more outwardly perfect but rather realizing our inward perfection as it really is.I feel it to be very possible the reason why we came uip with the idea of needing to grow up out of the things we just cant shake after recieving Christ is becuase we simply are either living up to a standard we think God holds us to,or we simply don't think God can grow us up opn His own.Or maybye we are just worried about our "testimony".Im thinking that one through....woudlnt it rather be GOOD to be able to relate to another smoker about how much God loves them than just teasing with the idea that God will take away there smoking habit if they come to him?I mean does that really motivate them?Why not just go get a patch and skip the moral pressure then?No, rather as you are in your process you could certanily help others with a heart of love and acceptance and God can still grow you in that process.

Personally I still think smoking is a grosss discusting habit that hurts others and myself[i smoked for years when i was a young man]However it doesn not provide more spirituality in and of itself.To me one of the greatest quotes ive ever heard goes something like this:"God can cause you to grow by grace by accident better than anyone can grow themselves on purpose".

To me we would grow up If our Truth were more wonderful.If we werent left to meditate on crumbs we would be able to grow the way God intends for us to grow in the power of the Gospel.



      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

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Posted: Apr-22-07 at 10:19am | IP Logged  

Adam said
 ".......i smoked for years when i was a young man]However it doesn not provide more spirituality in and of itself.To me one of the greatest quotes ive ever heard goes something like this:"God can cause you to grow by grace by accident better than anyone can grow themselves on purpose".

To me we would grow up If our Truth were more wonderful.If we werent left to meditate on crumbs we would be able to grow the way God intends for us to grow in the power of the Gospel."


____________________________________________________________ __________________________________________________

 adam,this is excellent.and to me addresses the point of this whole thread , to get out focus away from what our perceptions are of "sin" and onto the growing in grace which is done by resting in the finished work of Christ.
    habits are what they are habits.they may not be pretty at times,but trying to fix a habit ,because we think it is unaddressed sin, takes away from us seeing that all things have already been laid at the foot of the cross.if we change our perception, from what we think we have to do, back onto what Christ has already done, maybe some of these"habits" would lose their
perceived power.


Edited by mcdave on Apr-22-07 at 10:28am


      

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luvin
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Posted: Apr-22-07 at 10:56am | IP Logged  

Dave you actually "one-upped me"...that was perfectly said!

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

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Broken Link
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Posted: Apr-22-07 at 2:13pm | IP Logged  

Nyagali,

Cigarettes are engineered to be addicting, not just a habit. So, it is an addiction he is really trying to break.

Addictions are difficult to break without assistance. It's hard to get your body to give up the things for which it has developed an artificial craving when every continued use merely perpetuates the craving. What's more, the addiction gets tied into our everyday lives as a response to stimulations in our environment. So, every external stimulation that becomes associated with the addiction actually triggers that craving, e.g. stressful situations, eating, etc.. You can't eliminate those things, so the craving continues to be triggered.

If it continues to be difficult, look into getting a doctor's help, or check to see if any community programs are offered locally that are designed to help people break the habit of cigarette smoking.



      

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heretic - n 1: a person who holds beliefs in conflict with the dogma of the church.
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Chickenlips
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Posted: Apr-22-07 at 2:50pm | IP Logged  

Luvin,

I don't know what Paul was speaking about -- but I do know what I was speaking about.  It is what the Lord has been speaking to me through Pauls words.  And I know what He has been revealing in me, and through me.  It has nothing to do with Law what-so-ever.

Knowing my inner perfection will NOT save me.  Identity truths will fail me.  Only Jesus makes the difference.  The greatest danger of knowing our identity is that it does not bring Christ more clearly into view -- it cannot in and of itself because the focus is still all ME.  The only thing that brings Christ into view is a recognition, moment by moment of our desperate need for Him, and His revelation of just how fully He has us. 

There are things about me I cannot change -- crosses I have to bear if you will.  There are things about me that are devastating to my wife, children, and even myself -- things that cause continual hurt.  And knowign I hurt them hurts me.  If I shared my deepest struggles with most people, they would throw up and turn their back on me. But Jesus loves me in spite of it, and in the midst of it.  I recognize these things about me, not because a LAW has condemned me, but because the spirit of God has revealed them to me.  Who can save me from this body of death?  Thanks be to God, that through Christ Jesus He has the abiltiy to meet me in my human condition, He accepts me as I am, and enables me to do what I could never do apart from Him.  Only through Him can I do all things. My weaknesses are the powerpoints of His life in me. 

Nearly everyday I wake up facing an emotional train wreck of one form or another.  It is a sheer panic to face another day.  Somedays I wake up gasping for my next breath, not knowing how I will make it through the day.  I have struggled with anxiety attacks for years.  Somedays, suicide sounds like a great option.  In my mind I know better, but there is something else at work within me that goes against that which I "know" to be true.  My knowledge won't save me.  So how do I overcome this battle that I face?  I cannot overcome it.  Apart from Him I can do nothing.  Yet His life in me is the motivation, the strength in the midst of this weakness.  I would not change it.  His life is too real and precious to want anything else. 

He is continually growing me in the knowledge of my dependence upon Him.  His presence is is much more valuable to me that His presents. He is enough.   I am content.



      

Mike

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luvin
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Posted: Apr-22-07 at 3:04pm | IP Logged  

Mike I want you to know that in no way was my prior post making light of your persoanl trial ok?I care very much when I hear of others going through various trials and only want to help.However sometimes I realize that through the same thoughts we were ALL taught from the false premises of religion we gain amplified ANXIETIES and it actually agravates our already sensitive situations...

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

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Chickenlips
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Posted: Apr-22-07 at 3:17pm | IP Logged  

I'm over tired and not feeling 100% today so forgive me if I missed your point. 

Shalom bro.



      

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Rest and Trust
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Posted: Apr-22-07 at 5:39pm | IP Logged  

Chickenlips wrote:

Luvin,

I don't know what Paul was speaking about -- but I do know what I was speaking about.  It is what the Lord has been speaking to me through Pauls words.  And I know what He has been revealing in me, and through me.  It has nothing to do with Law what-so-ever.

Knowing my inner perfection will NOT save me.  Identity truths will fail me.  Only Jesus makes the difference.  The greatest danger of knowing our identity is that it does not bring Christ more clearly into view -- it cannot in and of itself because the focus is still all ME.  The only thing that brings Christ into view is a recognition, moment by moment of our desperate need for Him, and His revelation of just how fully He has us. 

There are things about me I cannot change -- crosses I have to bear if you will.  There are things about me that are devastating to my wife, children, and even myself -- things that cause continual hurt.  And knowign I hurt them hurts me.  If I shared my deepest struggles with most people, they would throw up and turn their back on me. But Jesus loves me in spite of it, and in the midst of it.  I recognize these things about me, not because a LAW has condemned me, but because the spirit of God has revealed them to me.  Who can save me from this body of death?  Thanks be to God, that through Christ Jesus He has the abiltiy to meet me in my human condition, He accepts me as I am, and enables me to do what I could never do apart from Him.  Only through Him can I do all things. My weaknesses are the powerpoints of His life in me. 

Nearly everyday I wake up facing an emotional train wreck of one form or another.  It is a sheer panic to face another day.  Somedays I wake up gasping for my next breath, not knowing how I will make it through the day.  I have struggled with anxiety attacks for years.  Somedays, suicide sounds like a great option.  In my mind I know better, but there is something else at work within me that goes against that which I "know" to be true.  My knowledge won't save me.  So how do I overcome this battle that I face?  I cannot overcome it.  Apart from Him I can do nothing.  Yet His life in me is the motivation, the strength in the midst of this weakness.  I would not change it.  His life is too real and precious to want anything else. 

He is continually growing me in the knowledge of my dependence upon Him.  His presence is is much more valuable to me that His presents. He is enough.   I am content.

Appreciate your openness here. Good stuff for my "present moment".

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Rest and Trust
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Posted: Apr-22-07 at 5:48pm | IP Logged  

I would guess one of the greatest "habits" that is promoted and perpetuated by the IC to be- always looking to fix the old from the Adamic/carnal mind. It is a sad, destructive "habit". I wonder how subtle that type of habit is? Thoughts?  
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mcdave
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Posted: Apr-22-07 at 6:56pm | IP Logged  

Chickenlips wrote:
Knowing my inner perfection will NOT save me.  Identity truths will fail me.  Only Jesus makes the difference.  The greatest danger of knowing our identity is that it does not bring Christ more clearly into view -- it cannot in and of itself because the focus is still all ME.  The only thing that brings Christ into view is a recognition, moment by moment of our desperate need for Him, and His revelation of just how fully He has us.


  Hi Mike,

 I know you were responding to adam so i hope you don't mind me jumping in here too.first,i agree with adams response that we were not inferring anything about the personal struggles you are going through.nor would i say that in this life we don't have troubles.
     quite the opposite they are many and often overwhelming.having stuggled with and through things that seem to overwhelm the natural man,i personally could not have survived without knowing my inner perfection nor without knowing my true identity.however that is where i think we are not connecting.my inner perfection doesn't save me.knowing my new identity can't fail me.those are the inward revelations of what has already done .saved me and put me in a place where i can never fail because I can no longer do anything.it is now all His gig.he doesn't make us stronger so we can suceed,he shows us our weakness so that we can fail.the bar is so high that it is impossible for us to do anything but trust in Him.this isn't pie in the sky it is the reality that we can all walk in as believers.in the last years we have endured dealing with things ranging from mental illness,alcoholism financial struggles and even death.  without KNOWING that the only way through is total trust in His finished work we would have been on a continual cycle of wanting more of what we already have,faith in him.  easy no.simple trust YES but it can only come from resting and trusting that in the midst of trial and terror he is always faithful.



Edited by mcdave on Apr-22-07 at 6:58pm


      

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luvin
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Posted: Apr-23-07 at 12:21am | IP Logged  

very cooil dave..

Mike I hope this helps in some way bro/



      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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mary
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Posted: Apr-23-07 at 1:31am | IP Logged  

luvin wrote:
..... sometimes I realize that through the same thoughts we were ALL taught from the false premises of religion we gain amplified ANXIETIES and it actually agravates our already sensitive situations...


       Adam,

           The things that you have been sharing have been been entirely relatable and understandable to one who has experienced the same thing with THIS "habit".  When I was with the Shack folks in S. Carolina,  and I sat on the patio with cigerette in hand, it was a "though" they were all oblivious to it.  This is the way it is with people who have come into the realization that there is no longer any "sin-consciiousness".  The "thing"  is not associated with me.  The "thing" is simply the "thing" .   I know this is what you've been saying, and what you and McDave shared earlier, so you keep sharing, Adam.  You have a unique way of relating those "inner" thought processes.  It's so cystal clear, when you're reminded that those were all the same ingrained false perrceptions your mind was jumping through, too. 


  

            
          

          

         




      

Mary
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Tim P
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Posted: Apr-23-07 at 8:23am | IP Logged  

Mary,

Thanks for your real life example of living in grace and experiencing it from others.  I always like to see what the green and red couple post. :-)

Tim

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Joyce
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Posted: Apr-23-07 at 8:29am | IP Logged  

Patio?  Cigarette?  What cigarette? 

 

This is all a really good discussion to me.  I am thankful for Mike bringing up these issues because this seems to be the area where I can get into a certain mindset, but at the same time remember that it seems to be in conflict with what I feel I am learning about the "it is finished" reality.   Things will come up in my life where I will think or act a certain way, then have consequences or things said to me, or realize certain things where I think that it happened for the purpose of me "learning" from it that God is "growing me up" in that area of a certain behaviour that would be what He would want for me and also for my benefit in this world to follow because of it being the more of the right way to be. 

The problem is (and thankful for Adam, the Daves, etc. input as well), it doesn't seem like it can jive with the new mindset of my new identity.  So if that isn't me, is God still working on the old things in order to bring them more into line with the 'right and wrong' issues of life?  Or am I to ignore those things that seem at the time to be God's working in my life with regard to those issues?   It seems that there are benefits to certain ways of thinking and acting that help us to have better consequences in this life.  But is it actually God's judgement on the issue and his working things out of us, or is it maybe more just wisdom for living?...  and are we even being "taught by God" wisdom for living? 

Marissa



Edited by Joyce on Apr-23-07 at 8:44am
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luvin
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Posted: Apr-23-07 at 9:35am | IP Logged  

Mary thank you so much for your true and sincere encouragment!You know you are a big encouragment.I learned from your post.

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

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luvin
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Posted: Apr-23-07 at 9:43am | IP Logged  

Joyce FINALLY!

What your last post sharred is what I have been asking in its various forms for 6 years on the Shack!Yeahhhhh!!!You bring up good questions /to me very important distinctions.The typical way to view our "habits" if you will,is to view them as something that needs work.However is that not a mind set on death?[that is if your relating any spiritual and or Jesus-like-moral obligation to change it?]



      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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nyagali
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Posted: Apr-23-07 at 9:57am | IP Logged  

I remember several years ago I was struggling with an issue and kept crying to the Lord to take it away. It was very heavy and something I knew had to go, but couldn't seem to let my mind let it go. Then one day, I had a sense of how God sees this--one of those revelations that come directly from the Lord. I was praying about it again and I had a deep sense that God could not enter my prayer for help. He couldn't even see the "sin" and there I was struggling with it. Those words "it is finished" came alive!! If we "say" we are new creations and have a new identity, then it is a matter of having a revelation of that or we will live under the law to rid ourselves of things we get "convicted" about or that we "should" do. I agree with Mike that it can become very focused on ME. Somehow He has to take us from that foundation to live above who we even are. Not sure if this makes sense....but I'm really enjoying the sharing.
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Chickenlips
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Posted: Apr-23-07 at 10:20am | IP Logged  

Good discussion, all. 

An oak that is 3 inches tall is no less an oak than one that is 30 feet tall.  I like to think that I am growing up into what I really am.  That does not make me less than what I am now,  but it keeps me from becoming complacent.  I am perfect, holy blameless and righteous.  But I often do not act like it.  But a human acting like a rabbit does not make him or her a rabbit.  In fact, the uncomfortableness of one acting like a rabbit proves what one is not.  I act way too carnal at times, but that does not make me carnal.  Just the opposite.  I know the term growth implies a lot of baggage for people because it automatically means striving.  But how hard does that oak tree have to strive to grow?  And because it does not strive, does that mean there is no growth?  I can only see dimly on this side of the curtain.  But I am discovering that I can see more clearly the longer I walk with Him.  He is being revealed -- to me, that is growth.

Perhaps progressive experiential revelationwould have less baggage than the word growth?  I am continually growing in that revelation of Christ within. 

Joyce, you ask good questions.  I Love it!  Thanks!

Mary, I gave up smoking years ago, but that does not mean that I might not sit down with you, bum a smoke and fellowship with you around Him.  :) 

McDave, I appreciate your honestly and openess.  It is both encouraging, and refreshing.

Joe, thanks for the encouragment.  That's life in the fishbowl, ain't it?

Luvin, I have a question... In your mind, where does obedience to God fit in?

 



      

Mike

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Chickenlips
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Posted: Apr-23-07 at 10:22am | IP Logged  

nyagali,

AMEN!!!!!  I LOVE what you wrote!



      

Mike

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luvin
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Posted: Apr-23-07 at 10:48am | IP Logged  

Luvin, I have a question... In your mind, where does obedience to God fit in?

 



      


Mike

 

It fits in to the old covenant.[at least in the way in which I think you are referring to it]

Now,it fits in to Christ and Him alone.You see no matter how we look at it the flesh isn't going to do anymore than grow if we stare at it and recondemn it and fear it.Complasancy is a definition that we decided one day was sin.Lets rest from our works and  allow the eternal covenant to do its job in us so that no root of bitterness pops up!Our hearts are kind and at rest trusting in His provision and NOT in our own works,philosophies,fears and efforts.



      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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luvin
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Posted: Apr-23-07 at 10:49am | IP Logged  

nyagali wrote:
I remember several years ago I was struggling with an issue and kept crying to the Lord to take it away. It was very heavy and something I knew had to go, but couldn't seem to let my mind let it go. Then one day, I had a sense of how God sees this--one of those revelations that come directly from the Lord. I was praying about it again and I had a deep sense that God could not enter my prayer for help. He couldn't even see the "sin" and there I was struggling with it. Those words "it is finished" came alive!! If we "say" we are new creations and have a new identity, then it is a matter of having a revelation of that or we will live under the law to rid ourselves of things we get "convicted" about or that we "should" do. I agree with Mike that it can become very focused on ME. Somehow He has to take us from that foundation to live above who we even are. Not sure if this makes sense....but I'm really enjoying the sharing.

 

Awesome post!YES i UNDERSTAND YOU!



      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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Rest and Trust
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Posted: Apr-23-07 at 11:08am | IP Logged  

Chickenlips wrote:

 

Perhaps progressive experiential revelationwould have less baggage than the word growth?  I am continually growing in that revelation of Christ within. 

 

Chickenlips wrote:

Joe, thanks for the encouragment.  That's life in the fishbowl, ain't it?

 

Hey, where did all the Pirhanas come from? 

(Hotel remodling humor.)

 

 

 

[/QUOTE]

Edited by Rest and Trust on Apr-23-07 at 11:09am
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mary
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    Tim, thanks much!  Blessings, geeze I understand what the passage out of the old ingrained mentality was like, it's such a unique journey for each of us, and His timing for it, is what matters!

     Mike,

        That means alot to me, although this habit won't be staying around long.  I've experienced the cessation of it for long periods of time in years past. On the practical side,  what Bill mentioned about the "stressors" is key for me.  The physical addiction itself isn't so strong, but the connection to stress is.  (Bill, that was excellent advice, btw )  For me, it'll become an awareness of how to handle those "triggers." 

    
   

       


      

Mary
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Chickenlips
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Posted: Apr-23-07 at 11:56am | IP Logged  

luvin wrote:

It fits in to the old covenant.[at least in the way in which I think you are referring to it]

And that, my friend, is exactly why so much of what I share can be so easily misunderstood.  So much is interpreted through an assumption about what I mean. 

 

 



      

Mike

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mary
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Posted: Apr-23-07 at 12:21pm | IP Logged  



     



Now,it fits in to Christ and Him alone.You see no matter how we look at it the flesh isn't going to do anymore than grow if we stare at it and recondemn it and fear it.Complasancy is a definition that we decided one day was sin.Lets rest from our works and  allow the eternal covenant to do its job in us so that no root of bitterness pops up!Our hearts are kind and at rest trusting in His provision and NOT in our own works,philosophies,fears and efforts.


[/QUOTE]

     Adam!       Man, the things you're sharing make my heart surge with joy!  I LOVE THIS!!!

      Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeet!     


      

Mary
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mary
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Posted: Apr-23-07 at 12:47pm | IP Logged  


    Nyagali,  I understand what you mean, too!


      

Mary
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