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Biblical Interpretation
 Shovel Shack : Biblical Interpretation
Subject Topic: everlasting destruction
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graceman
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Posted: Aug-23-05 at 12:31pm | IP Logged  

I would answer 'A' to the God questions--I don't care about the health care questions.  How about you, Mercy...Man.
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Rest and Trust
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Posted: Aug-23-05 at 1:14pm | IP Logged  

graceman wrote:

Rest and Trust--

"If a person wants to receive their identity from Satan why would God force them otherwise?" (your comment)

That's why its called unconditional love.  The man we write off, as he curses God with his last, dying breath...isn't he as qualified for UNCONDITIONAL LOVE as we are?  Or does he slip into hell as the Eternal Gentleman sorrowfully walks out his hospital room door...Oh, if HE WOULD HAVE ONLY BELIEVED IN ME SO I COULD HAVE SAVED HIM.

"Unconditional love" is a contemporary term that (I would guess) was likely coined in recent history.    

There again, I would guess (since I don't have the time right now to do a word study) that Gods Love is often framed in scripture to somehow flow through a person in conjuction with their believing in Him. Don't get me wrong, "unconditional love" is a great term, but the way you are applying it flies in the face of many scripural contexts that describe Gods love working in and through you in conjuction with your belief in Him.

I would be curious what your comment might be about my question- "does God force Himself into and through an unwilling person"? The fact that God would have to force Himself into the "unwilling person" is (I believe) a valid question that I would really appreciate hearing other perspectives about. What kind of a person is it that forces their sperm into another person who is unwilling? It is very clear in scripture that God places His Seed (the original greek word that was used was Sperma) into the person at salvation. If the "Sperma" of God enters a person to make them born-again, what is wrong with the concept (aside from it being scriptural) that a person can choose to accept Gods Sperma (through Jesus Christ) willingly? 

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Joyce
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This is a really good discussion with some really good thoughts throughout.  Something just really came to mind when reading dave's post.  It has to do with what it comes down to in mindset that I can hear in my mind from past religious teaching and how it comes across to me.  For those who are saved and believe that it was because they believed... there is an air of, and a focus on their action and what THEY did, which I believe diminishes that which was all about Christ.  Then for those that don't believe there is this "judgement" toward them that they are unworthy because they just WON'T believe and that somehow (even though they were born into sin without any decision on their part with regard to that), they deserve what they get.... and 'Oh well'.   

Joyce

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Mercy Man
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Question: If my faith in God is the evidence that Christ lives in me, then is the Muslim's faith in Allah evidence that Mohammed is the Prophet of God?


      

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PeteNZ
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Mercy Man wrote:
Question: If my faith in God is the evidence that Christ lives in me, then is the Muslim's faith in Allah evidence that Mohammed is the Prophet of God?

Could it be that the "Spirit of Christ" lives in one, and the "spirit of mohammed" lives in the other......along with with the respective "mind" it produces...  ?



      

Pete
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Mercy Man
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PeteNZ wrote:
[QUOTE=Mercy Man]Question: If my faith in God is the evidence that Christ lives in me, then is the Muslim's faith in Allah evidence that Mohammed is the Prophet of God?

Could it be that the "Spirit of Christ" lives in one, and the "spirit of mohammed" lives in the other......along with with the respective "mind" it produces...  ?


Good question. So the muslim's faith is manifested when he "realizes" that Allah is God, and Mohammed is his Prophet? Was he born a Muslim/predestined to be a Muslim, and just didn't realize it till later on? Or did he perhaps somewhere along the line receive into his soul and union with a word or seed that had a source external to himself?


Edited by Mercy Man on Aug-23-05 at 2:35pm


      

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luvin
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mart1
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Friends, i've been thinking this lately:
"When i am most confused, that's when God is the most all over me."

Man; He is something!  (And so different from what i think that He is when i think that i understand everything about all about my low-down times).

I believe that it is easier to teach/renew someone living in a ditch than to teach/renew someone living in a palace.
mart
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dave
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I don't think that we are considering faith as it really is!  We still assume it is a decision ie. like a muslim choosing to believe in mohammed, or a Mormon choosing to believe in Joseph Smith, etc.  Faith is described in Galations as being Christ....its like He is the personification of Faith.  He is the author and perfecter of faith.  Thus, anything that does not originate from Christ and His Life is not really faith at all.  It is merely a belief!!!  Thats why the demons BELIEVE and shudder.  Wouldn't they be saved if they believed????  But, that is the whole point of James...true faith is from God.  It is alive and active....and it cannot be manufactured in any way.  Plus, it is a miracle for someone to put their faith in Christ and His finished work because it totally is offensive to the flesh.  It is not a miracle to "create" gods (ie. Joseph Smith, Mohammed, etc) and "believe" in them.  We believe in people all the time.  I believe in my dad, I believe in my bus driver, etc.  The truth is Muslims or J.W's or Mormons or Christianity (the religion), do not really believe in God to save them....they believe "in God" but still rely on the flesh to save themselves.  Thats why some Christians look no different than any other religion.  Faith is altogether different!!!  It releases us from ourselves and into Christ!
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graceman
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Wow Dave--that was great!

Rest and Trust--

If your definition of 'sperma', etc. is designed to make me look as though I condone God 'raping' mankind you'll need to take your 'strawman' elsewhere for a response.

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Broken Link
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I like strawberries. If someone gave me a choice of strawberries or a plate of poop with a ribbon on it...

duh!!

Now if you want to invent poisoned strawberries and the best tasting poop in the world to try and make the question appeal to me more the other way, go right ahead.



      

Bill
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heretic - n 1: a person who holds beliefs in conflict with the dogma of the church.
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SETH_
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dave wrote:

Hey everyone.  I have a question and would like to hear from you all.  I am soaking in God's grace and I appreciate all of your perspectives.  So here is my question.  Well, let me quote the verse first.  "He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.  They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of His power."- 2Thes. 1:9.  So if Salvation is by Grace, God's choice, then who are these that will be punished. 

those who blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, meaning those who reject God's grace

Quote:
And if these are punished why didn't God in all of His grace save them? 

free will

Quote:
I am very confused.

it's the gospel of the Shack, it is confusing because it is false.

Quote:
Let me tell you why this question is so very important to me.  It is not a doctrinal question where I want the right answer with scriptual proof.  It is a question that comes close to my heart because I just had my first son.  Now, if God chooses who is saved and not then I cannot rest in peace because I would not know if my son would be saved or not.  But, I know in my heart this cannot be because God is just not like that.  However, I do no some will perish according to the Bible but why they do and not others is beyond me.  So the thing that I want to know from all of you with kids is how do you know for certain that your child will have the Life of Christ?

when God spoke to Moses and told him to take the peole out of Egypt, He didnt say "adults only" but all as one people.

you should baptize him and educate him and live an examplary life so your son may grow in that love and atmosphere to get to know his saviour.

Quote:
Because if I cannot know for certain that my son will be saved then Christianity is just BOGUS because it has to give us assurance especially for the ones we love.  Do you see my dilemma?  O.k. I know there are those who believe all are alive in Christ but I do not read that from Scripture. 

most are dead

Quote:
So if you give me that answer you will have to convince me of what this verse and multitudes mean that talk about destruction, being dead in sin, and so on and so forth.  Well, i hope this is not too confusing.

they will deceive you with smilies and sweet talk you into laughing and "letting it go".

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mart1
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Everlasting destruction or Eternal Life?

-Every human 'being' needs only one thing/Being for true fulfillment.
-Many of us 6.2 billion disagree on what we all really need.
-Some of us 'kinda' agree in 'name', but argue amongst ourselves most of the time.
-Many others have looked at and tried 'christian fellowship' as we daily display it and gotten 'turned off' (me being one in that class).

I don't know if this is pertinent or not; i just felt like writing that.
mart

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Rest and Trust
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graceman wrote:

Rest and Trust--

If your definition of 'sperma', etc. is designed to make me look as though I condone God 'raping' mankind you'll need to take your 'strawman' elsewhere for a response.

Graceman, I was not defining the word "sperma". It is simply the greek word that was used in the scriptures that refer to the seed of God being planted into the person when they are born-again. Mat. 13:38, Romans 4:16-9:8, gal. 3:29, 1 John 3:9, etc.......... 

I have considered the U.S. perspective and I find that it hits a wall when it comes to those who do not want to enter into union with God right up to the grave. It might make sense in the context of reincarnation but it flies in the face of the scriptures that refer to salvation being given to those who willingly receive it. (Sure you can call being willing a work but you can call laying down and going to sleep a work and all you have done is given "a work" a new definition.) I would really enjoy discussing and exploring the U.S. perspective but how can there be a discussion if you refer to a sincere and valid challenge that is made to your doctrine as a strawman argument. Its as if you don't want to be bothered with the facts because you are to busy trying to convince yourself of something that doesn't really make any sense.

It kinda reminds me of an exchange that I have had with people who were promoting and/or trying to convince me of mormonism. When you offered the (basic) challenge in the form of a question to their doctrine about the fact that Joseph Smith translated the "Golden Plates" into King James english a language that hadn't been used in centuries. (Why not imperial Japanese or Babylonian or Navajo or ubonics?) You will usually get one of two responses to this question from a mormon- you need to simply take it by faith because Joseph Smith wrote it, or they immediatly launch into personal attack.

My point with this analogy is this- if you have found a truth that is of the Holy Spirit why is it so difficult to answer such a basic challenge to it. Obviously we don't agree but whats the problem with discussing and exploring our differences?   

 

          

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dave
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Seth,

You brought no hope, no answer, and no Life to me from your thread.  You might think you have the answer but I do not see it when I read what you wrote.  And I really don't know the gospel you believe in but it isn't the gospel of the scriptures.

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mcdave
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personally,i am not sure when "believing" or being willing to recieve became a "work" i perhaps do not understand all the dynamics of salvation other than what the Lord showed by His Spirit.There is a real revealtion of his grace of Christs work that we accept or we don't.i am not sure how the Lord handles the pygmies in africa that haven't heard the gospel but romans pretty clearly shows that he has covered that too even though we maybe don't understand it.there is a rest in knowing we don't know all.
 one thing that confuses me about the ur train of thought is that what we call the Bible" the collection of letters and writings were real letters written by real people flowing from real experiences with the Jesus we proclaim.they are not antiquities.they are not made up but they are relevant to us even today.they do not age with time but seem to get better and more relevant.if "all were saved" without faith without belief why would God bother to have the letters shared.Paul saw Christ.John the apostle saw and heard and touched him.they shared the Truth which John himself also says in 1 John "we all have an annointing from the holy one and we know the truth" frankly as many have said here there are too many hoops to jump through to make myself believe contrary to what the Holy Spirit has already shown.that is his purpose in the life of the believer after all.
 i am sad to see that this viewpoint is not only seemingly not accepted here at the shack but it is soundly attacked to the point where folks come on and call it a UR site.
 this place had been a place of peace,life and joy and i sensed no real difference in those from here that i have met personally.but now i wonder.what is the real spirit of the shack.perhaps seth is right.
 i don't know about others but i believe i became saved when i confessed with my mouth and believed in my heart Jesus is lord.and i also believe that the life i now live in my body i live by FAITH in the Son of God.if some don't agree that is THEIR right also.


Edited by mcdave on Aug-24-05 at 6:30pm


      

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graceman
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Rest and Trust and McDave--

Can I still fellowship here if I believe in Universal Reconciliation?  By sharing my gospel opinion have I tried to turn this into a UR forum?  (I don't think so, personally.)  UR is not MY doctrine...as a matter of fact, I didn't believe this way up until about a year ago.  The other point I would like to make is that I didn't arrive at what I believe by debate.  Inability to construct an 'airtight' theological argument doesn't make one 'wrong'; it will to those who DEMAND theological justification.  There is solid, Biblical ground for UR and IN MY LIMITED Biblical understanding it makes sense to me.  Its OK that you don't believe that way!  This forum does not have space, nor do I have the expertise to debate...I simply don't see the profitability in it...I can't convince ANYBODY OF ANYTHING, that's the Holy Spirit's job.  I will continue to come here because I BELONG, I have something to contribute (namely the indwelling Christ) and I have need of all of you (ministering the indwelling Christ to me).  That's enough for me...how about you guys?

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mcdave
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Hello Graceman,

 I did not put my post on to debate "ur" vs anything else.i put it up because i have felf frustration at the seemingly growing amount of discussion that seemed to focus on that particular viewpoint.i don't care to debate nor do i plan to.as you say "that is the Holy Spirits job.that is also what i was saying.the Holy Spirit is the One who leads into truth not mans theology nor "wise" arguments.i think those are counter-productive. I do not have an "airtight" case (except in my own spirit) nor do i think anyone who disagrees with us "demands" theological justification. obviously no one is trying to say anyone doesn't "belong" but your reaction to what was simply stated,the "traditional "good news of belief in Christ as our hope makes me feel as if THAT viewpoint is not welcome here instead of the other way around.


      

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~will
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Posted: Aug-25-05 at 2:54pm | IP Logged  

dave wrote:

Seth,


You brought no hope, no answer, and no Life to me from your
thread.  You might think you have the answer but I do not see it
when I read what you wrote.  And I really don't know the gospel
you believe in but it isn't the gospel of the scriptures.



Dave, Are you serious?

      

~will

"COME to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden and I will GIVE you REST..."
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Joyce
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A question just comes to mind with regard to the UR vs. "other".  It seems to me that we can all have opinions, but with God being so infinitely bigger and higher, will we really know anything in this area for absolutely sure until it is totally revealed in reality where we see with our eyes how it is?  The other thing is that it seems to me that there are those who believe UR, but that the other ones here that aren't sure are just that... we don't really know, but also we are probably not in the hell and damnation and eternal torment group either.  We think much more highly of God than that.  So, just to kind of classify the conflict a little it seems that it is more UR vs. people who just don't know for sure.  I'm sure we all agree it will be the way God has it to be, whatever that is.  (Or maybre I'm not understanding the issue exactly as it is.)

Joyce

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mcdave
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Hi Joyce,

 well i would tend to agree that i am no longer in the "sure about hellfire"group and that i perhaps don't have full understanding but i would have to disagree about your perceptions that it is "UR" vs "don't know". quite the contrary and i am sure the ur proponents feel the same way,i feel that because of what God has revealed that i DO know.that is why there is conflict.i also agree that God is so much larger than we can grasp but feel to that as we grow more and more in the knowledge of Him that he reveals himself more and more every day. one thing about the shack,Jim allows this discussion to continue instead of cutting people off as some sites do because i think he believes that Truth will prevail.


      

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graceman
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McDave--

Thank you for your comments.

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dave
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I'm with ya MCdave!!!

I don't consider myself ur, calvinist, or armenist (spelling?).  Sometimes, one train of thought may appear that I'm backing a certain doctrine, but in my heart I've given up trying to put it all in a box. 

I love you all.

 

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BobB
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Seth said:

it's the gospel of the Shack, it is confusing because it is false.

So why exactly do you continue to interact with us infidels? The only thing confusing are the real questions everyday people ask. The searching and questions only bring us closer to the reality that is found in Jesus. The life of faith demands these questions be asked, however immature you may think it all is, Seth. As off track this thread may have seemed, I saw a new beginning.

 



Edited by BobB on Aug-25-05 at 11:49pm


      

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~will
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Dave,

Well said bro!!! I agree with you entirely on this one!!! (surprising
hey???

You know i love ya even when i don't

      

~will

"COME to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden and I will GIVE you REST..."
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~will
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Mcdave and Joyce,

Thanks for sharing your heart! Much enjoyed it!!!

      

~will

"COME to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden and I will GIVE you REST..."
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~will
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I'm not sure where I stand on this issue either. I just trust Jesus
with my family and with other loved ones.

However I recently thought about romans 9 (of course this is
preceded by Romans 8 which is important to remember) and also
in 1 or 2 kings? when God raised that king up for the specific
purpose of showing His glory...makes you wonder...

      

~will

"COME to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden and I will GIVE you REST..."
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Rest and Trust
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Graceman I think you would probably agree that there are many ways that people interact with one another. Its kind of like the various ways that different children learn. They have found that some children learn and comprehend better with a hands-on approach to learning. Other children learn and comprehend much better through reading. I believe it is much the same with discussions. Some people desire to understand the reasoning that brings a person to the perspectives/beliefs that they hold onto. Others may simply enjoy hearing a persons perspective without knowing any of the reasoning behind it. 

I have held onto a number of beliefs/perspectives in my Christian experience that proved to be detrimental to me. Most often, if not every time, I allowed these detrimental beliefs into my mind because they were held by popular consensus by my Christian peers at the time. I believe, for those who no longer want to be duped by whatever doctrine happens to be popular at the time, discussion that is in the form of challenging questions is not for the purpose of contention.

The purpose of this comment is not to say you are being duped. It is just to draw a contrast between valid questions in a discussion and contention.      

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dave
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Willy Billy...we do see eye to eye every once in a while.  I love your question and pondering about 1 & 2 Kings and Romans 9.  It makes me wonder as well.  maybe God is in more control then what we perceive??  That again blows all of my old thinking out of the water....as you know how I've always thought!
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SETH_
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BobB wrote:

Seth said:

it's the gospel of the Shack, it is confusing because it is false.

So why exactly do you continue to interact with us infidels? The only thing confusing are the real questions everyday people ask. The searching and questions only bring us closer to the reality that is found in Jesus. The life of faith demands these questions be asked, however immature you may think it all is, Seth. As off track this thread may have seemed, I saw a new beginning.

Bob, i don't know why i stll interact, maybe i feel like i have to correct the false ideas accepted here. And maybe you are right everyone's somewhere in their journey and need to find out for themselves.

i never said you are infidels, if that's what religious people tell you then i understand why you are so repulsed by them.

But you do the same to people who don't agree with you, people like me, you've called me names and like dave did here, tell me that my words have no life or hope or whatever and then say "i love you", that's not a strange thing. You don't know "love", we are learning and we are all sinners and still have breath in ourselves thanks to God's grace.

I learned a lot here, i swear, but there's more and i found that in the church Christ and the Apostles founded, in the Orthodox church, all the rejection and legalism and judging you are fleeing and blaming it on IC is really a fruit of mixing mud with pure water, mixing false teachings with the authentic, true and living Word.

I read so many intrpretations of scripture here that are OFF. How can you read the Bible without looking at the people who wrote it, the way they lived, what they did, the Traditions they passed on and churches they founded?

I experienced legalism in protestant, then pentecostal churches and ran away. I wont lie to you there's judging people in orthodox churches too, but it is rendered to nothing because of Christ's presence there and the focus on Him rather then people. We messed up big time, we let the devil seperate Eastern from Occidental Orthodox in chalcedon then Catholics from the occidental and then the reformation after which all these protestant churches gave birth to all these branches and cults, in North America there are 1562 religions. Here in Lebanon, there are also many religions, i have friends from all kinds, I found Christ's peace in the original church He founded, in It's teachings, Mysteries, History and above all: Faith. It never was meant to be this way, there was meant to be One Holy Apostolic Universal Church on earth and in Heaven, the living and the dead.

Anyway, i'd like to say thank you for everyone on the Shack for the good intentions and bad, I know God always finds a way to reach the people who seek Him even in the worst places.

God be with you all

peace

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BobB
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Seth,

I never wish to insult but it has been clear that oft times your a little stiff when there needs to be room to discuss. No one here is right all the time and we KNOW this but it's a place to interact and bounce thoughts off of each other, and frankly, we enjoy it. Instead of politely engaging us in these discussions you project your "convictions" on the others here.  I am guilty of name calling but calling the Shack gospel "false" is also an assault on the many loving people here,(of whom by the way have helped me immensely). One proof I offer you of the spirit that is at work here is this... Everyone here ACCEPTS YOU as you are and continues in discussion with you Seth, because they're 's are big enough to handle it. We do not hold anything against you. For whatever error you may see in me or others here, please view it through a finished work of the cross.



      

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dave
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Posted: Aug-26-05 at 10:14am | IP Logged  

Seth,

I love my wife deeply!!!  I would say the same thing to her if she shared what you shared about real concerns in my life.  Its how I feel!  Do you not say how you feel on account of love for the other person??  IN my experience, the more I love someone (my wife, my dad, my brother), the more honest I am with my feelings. 

Paul said some pretty harsh things to the Galations!!  Why?  Because he was so caught up in freedom that his feelings were stirred when he saw his loved ones slipping away from the freedom that was theirs. 

What does love look like?  I have found that the people who made me feel warm and cuddly often were the ones who would be first to turn around and stab me in the back.  There is not enough honesty....because we are always scared how the other person will react!

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Meph55
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Posted: Aug-26-05 at 10:33am | IP Logged  

Hi all,

Nice to see the bonds of peace are so strong in Him.  Coming from so many different places, its great to be able ask questions and share where we are at.  He is so faithful to bring us to where He wants us to be, and to reveal Himself (in His way, in His time). 

Mcdave,  (howdy!)

Amen about resting in Him (not in knowing it all, ha) not having all the answers and about not labeling anyone (including the shack) with this or that label. (it reminds me of how Paul said it matters not if he is judged by them, and that he isn't ashamed of the gospel, etc.)  Hearing you tell your story reminds me of these things too.

There are so many definitions, for various schools of doctrinal or theological bents: ie, 'pentacostal' or 'sanctification' or 'baptist' or 'ur' or calvinist or arminianist(sp?ha) or whatever. 

To label someone or something based on a term or 'movement' or whatever seems to be a 'flesh' thing.  We ARE free IN HIM to call ourselves or others what we want, but it isn't always necessary or expediant.  And we are free to love those who would label or recognize us only according to the flesh or as IN HIM

Personally, i'm finding peace in the grace of God, and what (and Who) He is showing me (as i rest, asking questions or not sometimes learning from others questionings, etc.), and looking for the truth He is, for the truth i am IN HIM-  because of Him. And we can boldly (we DO boldly) have more and more confidence in what He has done for us, for our loved ones, and for the world.  Confidence in Him alone). 

I'd be hard-pressed to convince others of anything including my "doctrinal" beliefs, or theological bents - but HE is so able to reveal Himself to others in His way and His time. (that's how He saved you and me!)  

It's so great to have this growing confidence in Him, and His love and grace for us and for those we love and for those we barely know or know not at all.  (It's not so wonderful knowing how many angels can fit on the head of a nail or a pin or the head of anything else, hehe). 

And it's great to have all my bogus thoughts blown away.  For me that includeds the concept that God eternally torments anyone.  (but that's just where i'm at and i'm open to learn and grow in my study of the word AION or in the study of gehenna or sheol.  In any way He wants, for He is in control over all things.  My confidence in His love remains no matter what the answers are!  I'm convinced with you that God is LOVE! and that's a great place for us to "fellowship" with you and all because of Jesus and His cross!

You mentioned something about: if "all were saved" without faith  without belief (my underlines) why would God bother to have the letters shared." etc.

(cont)

 

 

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Meph55
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Posted: Aug-26-05 at 10:33am | IP Logged  

(cont.)

Perhaps this 'no faith involved' perspective (which i personally can't see or agree with) comes from someone who also holds to God's ultimately saving all of those whom He has reconciled to Himself, through Jesus and His cross.

Perhaps not (there are many different forms of thought and backgrounds re: all any theological bents including "ur".  I may or may not have the same opinion as others but my LIFE is in Him, (not in being calvinist or aminianist or urist, hehe). 

Amen, i'm with you about faith being an integral part of God's saving us.  It's impossible to please God apart from faith, and Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith.  God gives us the gift of faith, and we are enabled to believe in Him.  To "obey" or "hear" the good news: that He has reconciled us all by Jesus and the cross, not holding ANY of our iniquities against us. Praise Him!  This is LIFE to me.  Jesus, and His love and forgiveness and making me HIS for always, and even when i was dead and an enemy, just like all that He saves.

Whether God ultimately enables all of His creation, all whom He has reconciled to Himself by Jesus and the cross, to believe in Him might be the question that some folks are exploring.  Perhaps not

i'm glad you shared your heart with us mcdave, as well as seth and rest and all, even if we disagree.  It is no longer us and them, us vs. them, IN HIM etc. 

As far as where i'm at, i'm with you about not using labels and not recognizing others according to the flesh.  amen, we IN HIM don't recognize according to the flesh.  no need to label anyone, it seems to be a limiting thing according to the flesh,  rather we are all recognized as IN HIM. 

i also agree with you that it is only by grace THROUGH FAITH that God saves us (not our knowledge about His whole plan for humanity, or about doctrines or anything else). 

And that faith is a gift, and so precious and i'm sure i've barely touched the surface on it's beauty and magnificance!  i see Jesus as our Faith and our all, and He is the evidence, the reality of things hoped for and not yet seen.  (that's where i'm at now)

i've noticed there are so many different views and backgrounds that folks have that may or may not use the term UR.  Some are confident in God ultimately saving all who He has reconciled through Jesus and the cross, some may not even acknowledge Jesus as Lord (yet). 

Where i'm at now, is not so much having all the right answers or labels for myself or others, but rather having the confidence God gives me in Him and His love.  Even in severe pain or serious health issues, or times of remission or pain-relief.  In all things HIS LOVE is real and is LIFE to me.

We continue WITH YOU, In Him, not to be ashamed of the gospel or good news of Jesus Christ and His cross. 

His awesome love dave c. 



Edited by Meph55 on Aug-26-05 at 4:00pm
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graceman
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Posted: Aug-26-05 at 2:16pm | IP Logged  

This thread has been very helpful to me.  I just have one other thing to say and then I'm done (I'll wait for the clapping and cheering to die down...)

It is concerning labels.  I used the term 'UR' to identify a line of reasoning I have come to accept.  I did this because I thought it would be most widely recognized by those here at the shack.  But the term I like best is...Greater Hope.  To me this communicates the fact that God's sphere of salvation is much wider than we maybe comprehended before.  I am not trying to 'label' someone as defective if they don't believe this.  I know what my response was when I first heard this, "This is wrong.  This is heresy.  I cannot believe this (in my ever-loving Baptist mind)."  The people who shared this view with me are loving people...patient...REAL...and do love Jesus Christ very much. (Just like everyone here!)  They have been labeled "heretics", "deceivers" and just plain insane. They have suffered greatly...usually at the hands of those who will fight tooth and nail to preserve "traditional Christianity".  McDave...I received Christ in what I would term a "traditional" way.  He came to live in me on the 2nd deck of a U.S. Navy ship in response to my "sinner's prayer"...this is how I came to know Him.  I can't deny my own history.  But I refuse to be bound by it either.  We are all learning and growing in our understanding of Him...because He wills us to know Him more.  What struck me as funny though...just about everyone who has come here acknowledges that we were exposed to, indoctrinated in and ENCOURAGED to believe lies in the IC.  The Lord is being faithful to deliver us into "His way of thinking" (the mind of Christ).  If the IC was infested with law mentality and lies and we were never even exposed to the POSSIBILITY that Jesus Christ was maybe powerful enough to save ALL mankind...well, let's just say I had to re-think just about everything and the shack has been a HUGE part of this on-going process.  I thank so many of you here for the ministry of Christ to me.

(Please excuse the 'rambling' nature of this post)

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Joyce
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Posted: Aug-26-05 at 3:05pm | IP Logged  

Graceman,

I like the "Greater Hope" comment.  I could even go with that for me because it isn't as specific.  I do have a much greater hope for all of this than what I was taught in the ic.   I could identify completely with what you were saying in regard to all of that.  On thing that has kept me from jumping on the band wagan though has been that I'm thinking... what if that is what this is?  I had never heard anything about ur until in more recent times and then all of the sudden it seemed to be everywhere....so I just at this point am reserving judgement.  But "Greater Hope"?   Definitely! 

Joyce

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Rest and Trust
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Posted: Aug-26-05 at 11:21pm | IP Logged  

I really like the "Greater Hope" comment as well.  

About 2 years ago or so we ran accross some Malcolm Smith teachings on an internet radio station. We really enjoyed the way Malcolm taught. We also found the revelation in he was teaching to be very rich. Then we heard about a seminar that Malcolm was going to have at his guest ranch in Texas. We decided to go out to Texas and attend the seminar. I was really enjoying the seminar right up until Malcolm went off topic a little and described his view of universal reconciliation. After that session was over I asked him if he could expound a little on his ur perspective but he simply directed me to buy his tape series where his perspective about ur was described. Since that seminar I have often consideried and prayed about the ur perspective. So far I have only found objections to the ur as I understand it but I am very sincere in considering and questioning various perspectives.

Its been a long day and I am "wiped" so this probably won't make any sense but for what its worth.

 

        

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graceman
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Posted: Aug-27-05 at 10:07am | IP Logged  

Rest and Trust--

I have been greatly encouraged by Malcolm Smith's ministry.  I found him to be compassionate, Spirit taught and VERY REAL.  Just a loving guy!  I would have liked to meet him in person, but Texas was too far for me to travel.  His book, "Spiritual Burnout" is a classic in my opinion, for in it he reveals the living Christ in each believer...I still find encouragement through him.

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graceman
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Posted: Aug-27-05 at 10:19am | IP Logged  

Joyce--

'Greater Hope' to me communicates an idea that God is MUCH MORE for people than we had realized previously.  For the 'lost', our loved ones who seemingly will never 'get it' etc.  After a year of being exposed to this (from the Bible) I am just 'scratching the surface'...it is hard coming out of the boxes!  My 'box' came off a Baptist assembly-line, the Bible WAS THE WORD OF GOD and had every answer necessary for this life and eternity...yada yada yada  My prayer for myself and everyone here is simply: "God, give us spiritual power to grasp, the height, breadth and depth of the love of God which is in Christ Jesus."  In Him WE WILL REJOICE!

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mart1
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Amen, graceman!  NO MORE BOXES once in God thru Christ Jesus (well, i mean, maybe there is some mind-time lagover on that; but keep looking up!  What is our goal?  Ain't it Unity?)

I also learned a LOT from Malcolm Smith; his 'teachings' are the main reason that i started wondering, "Why do i consider myself a Roman Catholic?"

Then i heard a tape where he said that he is a bishop of the Epicopalian church, and that really knocked me back!  Was he trying to make me leave R.C. to become Episcopalian?

My sights are set much higher than that now.  I Love Malcolm, but i feel like he was only willing to tell the story halfway.  And i am very hungry.

God bless you Seth; don't leave like Dave S., K?
mart
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mart1
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Have you ever wondered about all the denominational leaders?  "Which of them know the WHOLE Truth?"

Have you ever wondered about yourself, "Do I?"
mart
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dave
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Posted: Aug-27-05 at 1:12pm | IP Logged  

I live in the Truth!!!!!  That is sometimes even better than "knowing" it.
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daniel
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Posted: Aug-27-05 at 8:03pm | IP Logged  

God's love and grace is in each one of our hearts and there is nothing greater.His love and grace has brought us all together at the shack to see the Christ in us all.

What a wonderful Heavenly Father we have and we are all His children.

Love in Christ Dan

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SETH_
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Quote:
My sights are set much higher than that now...  And i am very hungry.

don't ever stop seeking!

mart1 wrote:
Have you ever wondered about all the denominational leaders?  "Which of them know the WHOLE Truth?"

Denomination leaders aren't the Head of the Church, Christ is.
But i know why you ask that, i assume it's because you were catholic and roman catholics beleive in papal supremacy. You are right in doubting in that doctrine because it is false.


Quote:
Have you ever wondered about yourself, "Do I?"

I don't know the whole truth, but i ask for wisdom and our Father is faithful, generous and loving and when the time is right He will give what is right and reveal His truth thru His Holy Spirit. Because He calls to be Holy just as He is. He wants to reveal Himself to us, but expects effort and willingness from our part (now just watch people accuse me of preaching "salvation by works" and attack me because they don't want to repent)

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Broken Link
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Posted: Aug-28-05 at 5:40pm | IP Logged  



      

Bill
theHarryTick™
heretic - n 1: a person who holds beliefs in conflict with the dogma of the church.
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mart1
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Thanks, Seth.  I get you on what is 'work' and what is not...and what do other people think that it is or else is not...

One thing i think that i found out about seven years ago (because God showed me) was that my heart was really shrivelled up (you know, like a stone or a peach pit...).

Ok; so where from there?  Is acceptance of Christ and His Teachings work?
I don't believe so.

There are people classified as 'workaholics' who just never take a vacation because they are so scared of what will happen if they do - the whole world might fall apart...

Usually, whenever i go somewhere, i am the one driving MY car; and i like it like that.  Accepting Christ is like Jesus saying, "Hey! you slide over into the passenger seat.  Also, i know that you wanted to drive over there, but I'm taking you someplace else.  And it's all because I Love you.
So put on your seatbelt."
mart


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Joyce
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I've experienced denominational leadership that has, in my opinion, usurped authority over Christ and has held the attention of others to the detriment of their being able to experience Christ truly as their head.  I have also experienced true spiritual leadership which has been just that... spiritual to the core, and which only pointed me to Him.   There is a world of difference.

Joyce

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mary
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Posted: Aug-28-05 at 11:38pm | IP Logged  

 

      Oh yeah, Joyce!! 



      

Mary
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SETH_
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mart1 wrote:
Thanks, Seth.  I get you on what is 'work' and what is not...and what do other people think that it is or else is not...

One thing i think that i found out about seven years ago (because God showed me) was that my heart was really shrivelled up (you know, like a stone or a peach pit...).

Ok; so where from there?  Is acceptance of Christ and His Teachings work?
I don't believe so.

There are people classified as 'workaholics' who just never take a vacation because they are so scared of what will happen if they do - the whole world might fall apart...

Usually, whenever i go somewhere, i am the one driving MY car; and i like it like that.  Accepting Christ is like Jesus saying, "Hey! you slide over into the passenger seat.  Also, i know that you wanted to drive over there, but I'm taking you someplace else.  And it's all because I Love you.
So put on your seatbelt."
mart

i agree completely, i was a workaholic once and i know what you are talking about.

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Meph55
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Dear Seth,

Amen, It sounds like we are in agreement about God preparing works to do through us AND His saving us by grace through faith and not by any of those works, only HIS work on the cross (nor by warm and fuzzy emotionalities - new word, ha). 

For example:  when God revealed Himself to Paul on the Damascus Road he (Saul at the time) was putting a lot of effort working toward the persecution of the believers of Jesus (he could not be killing them for his salvation, but he could have been deluded at the time, thinking he was  earning brownie points and/or his salvation by jailing and murdering those "heretics" and "blasphemers").

But noone could ever have any good reason to accuse any of us (incl. you and i) of preaching a "works-based" salvation.  The "accuser of the brothers and sisters" may try, but he's a liar right from the beginning. 

It sounds like we both realize and agree that noone is saved by works.  That we were dead in our sins, enemies of (and hating) God, when Jesus died for us and rose and reconciled us all to God.  He drew us to Himself, He opened our eyes and He made us accepted in the Beloved!

So, we go on.  As He continues to reveal Himself to us in special ways, from glory to glory.  He matures us in His ways and in His time.  He is faithful, and He is our Father.  Even if "sin sins" in our flesh and we stumble again. He only sees us as IN HIM, new creatures (and HE knows how to bring us to maturity, in HIS time, HIS way for He is God). 

And we do go on to maturity (eventually)!  Even if we go through times of "dryness" or endure (by grace, and by His spirit, trials that seem so perplexing and overwhelming.) 

Even if at first (for years sometimes) try to continue on in the flesh, like the Corinthians.  Trying to do the work of God in immature ways.  (which, to me, is sin sinning in our flesh, but that's just my expression of it that's all).  For HE HAS prepared for us, if i may be so bold, "mature" works; since the "foundation of the world". 

I mean, He continues to reveal to us that HE is doing the work for us, and that we couldn't stop Him if we tried.  And that He will take us home at just the right time, so we need not worry that He is unable to complete that which He's started. 

IN HIM, we aren't motivated by rewards or fear of "hellfire" or anything but the "fear of Him" which compells us to love (for HE is love and there is no fear here IN HIM). NONE.

And we come to know that HIS LOVE will burn away all the works of the flesh eventually.  We may suffer loss and be saved "as by fire" but HE is fully aware of what HE has planneed for our lives.  (this is not an accusation against Him for our past sins, for our sins have all been dealt with, not only ours but the whole world.)

We're talking God's works now.  The only works that will last.  For ONLY love lasts.  And God is love.  And He will be all in all.  (i'm still studying and open to His reveallings more and more, so i know i don't know it all, ha, except to say I know Him, and He is my wisdom and He is enough. for all of us)

(cont)

 

 

 

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