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gregoryfl
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Posted: Jan-05-11 at 10:32am | IP Logged  

I wish everyone well. I will never be able to be with people in a productive way so I look forward to when these fleshly senses are no more. :) May that day come soon.

Ron



      

What do you see when you look at me? Not the visible me that your eyes can see. For in Christ I am dead, yet alive and free. Free to be it all, as he lives in me.
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the shovel
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Posted: Jan-05-11 at 2:16pm | IP Logged  

My dear Ron,

I hear much pain in this sign off. What expectations are you holding that you believe are not being met by which you determine this lack of productivity?

Jim


      

DIGGIN'THE LIFE!
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luvin
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Posted: Jan-05-11 at 2:30pm | IP Logged  

Ron

Who ever said YOU had to be productive anyway? Last
time I checked it was CHRIST in you that was producing
HIS Life?

Adam

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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Dignz
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Posted: Jan-05-11 at 4:06pm | IP Logged  

hello ron

are we misunderstanding you?  IS that a sign off, or are you just sharing your current feelings with us?  don't leave us to our imaginations.  please.  

i think those are good questions you guyz.  those were my questions as well ... also, being more concerned about the pain behind the post.

could you share with us ron in what productive way you desire to be while being with people?

i understand well your desire to be free from our senses ... i suppose you mean the ones that make us feel pain, whether it be emotional, physical, mental, or any combination, ya know?  i always had the impression that the senses will be more perfected without the limitations of these current suffering bodies, but ... maybe i am wrong?  maybe our senses tell us a LOT about ourselves and trying to communicate with us that something is going on with us in our hearts and minds that maybe we are not in tune with or aware of??  i mean,  when we feel pain, maybe we can sometimes pay extra attention and try to figure out the cause and source and deal with it the best we can for now?  i dunno ...

whatever it is, i love the thought and reality of christ being the one who is the productive one in our lives.  i think i would go insane without that realization, ya know?  i know that i tend to often suffer disappointments from my own personal unrealistic expectations of myself and my hoped for 'effects' on others' lives.  are you talking about that kind of thing maybe?  'cuz if you are, you certainly are NOT ALONE in that, brother.  honest!      

do you just feel this way with us here on the shack, or do you feel that way with everyone?  i ask because i have read you mention of others as well that you talk, type, meet with and/or are in contact with occasionally,  so i was just wondering?

are you ever comfortable just 'being' with people, without feeling a need for there to be something productive?  i guess what i want to understand is what you mean by 'productive'.  phew!  all that blather to figure out that is probably the question i am asking the most,   besides of course most importantly the question of are you okay

sending hugs and prayers of support ... sher   


Edited by Dignz on Jan-06-11 at 4:11am


      

"afterall, he's not a tame lion"
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gregoryfl
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Posted: Jan-14-11 at 8:39pm | IP Logged  

I just believe that I can never have one meaningful relationship, and so, not just here, but wherever I can, family and all, I am just cutting my ties, because I am sick of being seen based on outward appearance, and based on things that I know I am not in my heart. I will stay with my wife and son since they "need" me, but I expect once that need is gone, they will be as well. I know that I am perceived to be this encyclopedia of knowledge that just tries to teach others, and not anyone desirous of getting to know as a person. No matter how hard I try, I cannot help but come across in a way I so hate and despise about myself. That is what I mean when I say I look forward to these senses being no more, meaning when free of these mortal bodies all will relate to each other totally in reality. That is what I am so looking forward to.

The only way I can describe my desires, which I have been told are not realistic, are to compare how people typically treat each other with a loving family. Anyone who has a loved one, husband, wife, or child, while there should not be an expectation of anything, yet, if that family hardly talked to each other, or cared to be around each other, basically lived their own separate lives, and yet said they loved each other very much, I would have to question that love. I cannot simply say that who I truly am inside loves them, even if there is nothing to show of it outwardly.

Productive for me simply means where someone can tell they are loved and cared for, beyond simply saying such. I could tell my wife and son I love them, but if there is nothing to show other than my word, then such a love is not productive, and I don't mean in some law sense. Those who love someone very much will find ways to express it, not out of obligation, but because they can't help but do it.

I do feel pain yes, and it seems to come from those unrealistic hopings as I pursue relationships with others, and find those pursuits being for nothing. I feel just recently that I have damaged a relationship with someone who has been here, and unfortunately I cannot do anything to change the past. I look at myself and think that I can see why others generally do not wish to be with me, as I often don't with myself. (I'm somewhat smiling at that) I just want this part of life to be over with soon. In the meantime, the less I am involved with others the more at peace I feel from the burden of desiring relationships.

I simply do not like the life that Christ is producing in me, because he apparently does not wish to make it outshine the crap that I also produce, which is typically what others only see.



      

What do you see when you look at me? Not the visible me that your eyes can see. For in Christ I am dead, yet alive and free. Free to be it all, as he lives in me.
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the shovel
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Posted: Jan-15-11 at 8:06am | IP Logged  

Hello my dear brother,

gregoryfl wrote:
I just believe that I can never have one meaningful relationship, and so, not just here, but wherever I can, family and all, I am just cutting my ties, because I am sick of being seen based on outward appearance, and based on things that I know I am not in my heart.

I understand the weariness in being continually seen according to outward appearance, but I have learned to expect it. It truly comes with the territory. After all, I would have to consider myself the worst offender in how I view myself according to the outward. But it is right here that I have come to realize that most of my problems with how others have viewed me have been my own false perceptions and related projections. I cannot wait for or expect others to view me only in Christ in order to deal with them in any meaningful way. My ties to everything of the flesh have already been cut, and that is the only reason I can continue in this world that would have myself, as well as others, see me accordingly. Ron, that which we are in our hearts is our only true motivation to continue.

gregoryfl wrote:
I will stay with my wife and son since they "need" me, but I expect once that need is gone, they will be as well. I know that I am perceived to be this encyclopedia of knowledge that just tries to teach others, and not anyone desirous of getting to know as a person. No matter how hard I try, I cannot help but come across in a way I so hate and despise about myself. That is what I mean when I say I look forward to these senses being no more, meaning when free of these mortal bodies all will relate to each other totally in reality. That is what I am so looking forward to.

I suspect that much of what you struggle with has more to do with what you think you need from others and not just what you think they need from you. I have heard you express this in a few posts you've made, sometimes just in an underlying sense. I have often sensed that you were not getting what you hoped to get from me, and it's difficult to respond to that. In saying this, I don't discount the wonderful expressions of life you have shared, for you have been a blessing to me and to others. My brother, I know what it is to not feel needed and what it is to be misunderstood, for I relate very well. I also know that most of the hundreds of people with whom I have responded over the years got what they believed they needed from me so that I never hear from them anymore (and any who have read more than a few of the Q&A on theshovel site are probably aware that many who asked me their questions never even responded one time). But then again because I couldn't possibly continue with the same intensity of correspondence, some may have assumed they weren't important enough to me. But this is not where we live in relation to others.

gregoryfl wrote:
The only way I can describe my desires, which I have been told are not realistic, are to compare how people typically treat each other with a loving family. Anyone who has a loved one, husband, wife, or child, while there should not be an expectation of anything, yet, if that family hardly talked to each other, or cared to be around each other, basically lived their own separate lives, and yet said they loved each other very much, I would have to question that love. I cannot simply say that who I truly am inside loves them, even if there is nothing to show of it outwardly. Productive for me simply means where someone can tell they are loved and cared for, beyond simply saying such. I could tell my wife and son I love them, but if there is nothing to show other than my word, then such a love is not productive, and I don't mean in some law sense. Those who love someone very much will find ways to express it, not out of obligation, but because they can't help but do it.

Expectations is a word that many have come to avoid, except in the sense of bashing the negative connotations, but there is a reality of true expectations, that which is hoped for. While it is foolish to put conditional expectations upon ourselves and each other, the expectation that love actually reveals itself is not in vain. In this, I have learned not to overlook the real thing in the face of conflicting indicators. In hope, against all hope, we believe.

gregoryfl wrote:
I do feel pain yes, and it seems to come from those unrealistic hopings as I pursue relationships with others, and find those pursuits being for nothing. I feel just recently that I have damaged a relationship with someone who has been here, and unfortunately I cannot do anything to change the past. I look at myself and think that I can see why others generally do not wish to be with me, as I often don't with myself. (I'm somewhat smiling at that) I just want this part of life to be over with soon. In the meantime, the less I am involved with others the more at peace I feel from the burden of desiring relationships. I simply do not like the life that Christ is producing in me, because he apparently does not wish to make it outshine the crap that I also produce, which is typically what others only see.

My friend, in Christ nothing is lost but that which is actually nothing.

Love, Jim



      

DIGGIN'THE LIFE!
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mcdave
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Posted: Jan-15-11 at 12:32pm | IP Logged  

the shovel wrote:
In this, I have learned not to overlook the real thing in the face of conflicting indicators. In hope, against all hope, we believe.


 This really spoke to me about perceived reality vs what IS real.Our struggle in this life,in the physical realm seems to be an ongoing struggle to do exactly this,the real thing is always there,never changing even though the shadow,life in our fleshly bodies is screaming at us to ignore it. Sometimes I want to sit down in the middle of the road like a stubborn mule(no jokes here) until the two conflicting "realities" sort themselves out.Honestly,that might be the best solution.


Edited by mcdave on Jan-15-11 at 4:11pm


      

     It's not works,it's coffee.
   

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Dignz
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Posted: Jan-15-11 at 2:36pm | IP Logged  

i apologize for the length of this!     i will break it up into parts ~

PART 1

my heart really does not know whether or not i should type anything at all really, but ... honestly, that is pretty much how i feel MOST of the time about almost every-thing i type. nevertheless, sometimes i just can't seem to fight the compelling of the sharing, in-spite of the fear and insecurity i often feel about it.

i do not want to discourage you, ron from sharing such deep felt sufferings. that is not my intention at all here. however, i do want to be able to be as open with you about what you have shared as you have been by choosing to put it out here. i can only deduce your doing so, that you truly do desire the interaction/interrelating, as that is what you would hopefully have if you were 'face to face' with us. am i wrong about that?

to be quite frank with you, (well ... i am not frank, i am sherri, so ... i will be sherri with you)   from what you have shared here, ron i can not help but feel that you do not think that i, for one, have been, nor am i presently a friend at all. i think this makes light of my heart toward you in what we have shared back and forth over these past few years here on the shack, ya know? i will only speak for myself here. regardless of what you think my friendship, sistership, or basically any 'ship who really 'cares' is supposed to feel like, look like, function like, etc. and how horribly it is lacking, i will attempt to relate with you anyway. take it or leave it ... your choice and your prerogative ... it is from my heart to yours. i hope that my heart and time toward your heart and time means some-thing to you besides poo-doo.

i realize that i will probably miss the head on the nail way more than it will actually hit it, if i hit it at all, but ... here are my thoughts regardless.

i really do understand wanting to be more personally involved in each other's lives, in a more physically present sort of way. i know you have brought this up from time to time, and i know it means a lot to you. some of us have been able to 'meet up' in some little way or another over the years, and that has been awesome. we thoroughly enjoyed meeting up with you and yours a while back! yet, i know a little 'visit' is still definitely not the same as being involved in each other's lives on a more physically-present, regular-basis kind of way. there is nothing wrong with seeking out and/or pursuing a gathering-together. i do not discourage such things for whoever longs for and desires such pursuits.





Edited by Dignz on Jan-15-11 at 2:37pm


      

"afterall, he's not a tame lion"
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Dignz
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Posted: Jan-15-11 at 2:39pm | IP Logged  

PART 2:

there were a couple of particular things that you shared that i am compelled to address.   the following:

"... the less I am involved with others the more at peace I feel from the burden of desiring relationships."

perhaps this self-assessment might be a really good place to be ... temporarily. in the midst of such emotional pain, i know experientially how hard and sometimes damned near impossible it can be to really see more realistically and honestly how i may be deceiving myself, which in turn perpetuates the very pain i am suffering. i am so thankful that you could share this assessement here.

It is obvious to me that you have a deep need and desire for relationships, no matter how hard you may try to convince yourself in the midst of such pain that you have the power to NOT need them, and to deny yourself such involvement-attempts. i think your statement there is more about a withdrawal-of-sorts from your hopes of what you think these relationships should be like. i don't think there is any real or lasting peace by not desiring relationships at all, so much as there is true peace in accepting there is truly a need, yet without the expectation for them to pan out a particular way. (i know, beating a dead horse issue) i do not want to come across however that i think relationships do not involve some sort of expectation from time to time. it seems to be a relative thing ... an individual thing/need as to the degree of it.

i think perhaps we are probably all familiar on the deepest of levels with those feelings of disappointment with one another over not being the way we need or would like one another to be, or to do, or ... fill in the blank. that is typical in any human family and/or relationship. family members are always disappointed when other members do not meet their expectations or requirements. i know you know this, and maybe that is not so much what you are getting at, or at least what you think you are not getting at????

i am told and have read that 'good' relationships are all about love that communicates honestly with one another. if there is a need/expectation that is important to the individual, then it needs to be communicated. if a particular need can be provided it is indeed a wonderful thing. if it can not or will not be, then it is equally and sometimes even more so very disappointing. when it is more often than not disappointing, then perhaps it needs to be re-considered, discussed, rediscussed, examined and re-examined together between those involved, or by some outside, unbiased (is that even possible?) person first, and then those involved when 'ready' to do so. i dunno ... no expert here, that is FOR SURE! all i know is that, how one is going to spend their time and heart dealing with it all, is of course an individual matter.




Edited by Dignz on Jan-15-11 at 2:40pm


      

"afterall, he's not a tame lion"
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Dignz
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Posted: Jan-15-11 at 2:42pm | IP Logged  

PART 3:

"I simply do not like the life that Christ is producing in me, because he apparently does not wish to make it outshine the crap that I also produce, which is typically what others only see."

perhaps this is a matter of misidentifying what that life is, ya know? we know that what we truly do not like is that which is NOT his Life, and therefore not ours either ... that which once kept us bound to the things of the world. it is that plus himself which he reveals to us by all the varied processes of elimination that we experience along this journey. often that revelation comes out-of, out-from and in-spite-of much pain, discomfort and mis-identifications. we know that we truly LOVE all that is christ and all that is produced from his life in us.

like you, none of us are alone in the seemingly endless disappointments, frustrations, heartaches, pains, discomforts and sufferings that we experience along the way. because of this, from time-to-time we can all relate with each other, as well as anyone in the world whom we may meet along the way.

also like you, none of us in christ are alone in all the suffering that comes from being indentified with him, in him and because of him. none of us are alone either in all the suffering that comes from being misperceived and misjudged according to the outward appearance and behavior. that kind of perception and judgment is all that the world has to judge by. there is no other option.

however, i am pretty sure that most of your frustration comes from those of us in christ who perceive and judge according to the outward as if that is our only option. i can admit totally and completely that i am VERY GUILTY of such things, even while in the midst of realizing that it should NOT be so. thus the reason to truly rejoice when christ does shine through in-spite of it all, as the miraculous is then truly seen without doubt. it does not matter if and when it does not seem to be seen by anyone more than just ourself at any particular given time, as there are legions more in the unseen-to-us realm who are forever rejoicing and enjoying in that which we are also happily seeing and experiencing. and even if there weren't others, perhaps it is still just god himself who is quite happy and content just being true to himself in us.




Edited by Dignz on Jan-15-11 at 2:44pm


      

"afterall, he's not a tame lion"
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Dignz
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Posted: Jan-15-11 at 2:45pm | IP Logged  

PART 4:

i know that when we are overwhelmed with our own pain that we can often times not see how that pain is affecting others.   we take for granted and assume that others simply do not care enough to even be affected.  so we say painful-to and painful-about them things like:

"I will stay with my wife and son since they "need" me, but I expect once that need is gone, they will be as well."

do you really view your relationship to them as being ONLY that ... the sum-total of your relationship being that they 'need' you and you are doing them some sort of 'favor' by staying with them based on that alone?   they are the very ones who HAVE been with you face to face and on an almost DAILY basis, loving and accepting you as you the way they know best to do for YEARS now.  do you really believe there is no love involved at all on their part toward you?  do you think that in your pain that you could perhaps be making light of their hearts toward you?  is it possible that by making light of their hearts toward you in that way, that you are cheating your own self of what you need and already have?  do you think that if they knew you felt that way, that perhaps they could conclude that is how you feel about them  until they no longer meet whatever need you have of them, and that love has nothing to do with any of it?

if these thoughts are true, i hope that maybe you and yours can sit down and discuss these things until you each are satisfied that you each understand each other the best you possibly can, and move on from there?   otherwise, those thoughts are only food for more suffering that may not even be necessary if you just knew how each other REALLY felt and moved on from there.

my heart and thoughts are with you and for you, and my prayer is that there be true peace, acceptance, contentment and comforting ... that which we know only comes from him and is best revealed by him, from him and in him.

it has taken hours of my time and energy to type this to you ... i hope it is not taken lightly.  i have typed, retyped, worded and reworded ... and i know it is not going to be perfect no matter how many times i change it to try to make it so.   i don't say that to make you angry, or to pat myself on the back, or any such silliness.  puhhLEEEEze!      i say that only to remind you that what someone takes the time, energy and heart to share with you is because they do care for you and they have chosen a sacrifice of some kind for you, whether it be their personal time, energy, funds, or any combination of such.  sometimes we just need reminded that these are important things, not to be taken lightly.  maybe you are personally feeling taken for granted and your heart made light of??       

my words might just be words typed on a page, but even words take time, energy, thought and heart. hopefully my words come from somewhere REAL.  

there really IS some sort of sacrifice in love.     you know this personally and experientially.  we just tend to take it for granted sometimes and almost always expect something .... well .... more GRAND/less fuzzy.     i will quit now while i am unarguably already behind.

thinking of you and in support of your heart ~     



Edited by Dignz on Jan-15-11 at 2:54pm


      

"afterall, he's not a tame lion"
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Dignz
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Posted: Jan-15-11 at 4:00pm | IP Logged  

mcdave i really enjoyed your post!  i don't think that sitting in the middle of the road will really fix anything tho'.   i don't recommend it.    but i 'get it'.     my feelings can certainly relate from time to time.  

i especially LOVED this part ~

" ... until the two conflicting "realities" sort themselves out." 

 

 

      

"afterall, he's not a tame lion"
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gregoryfl
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Posted: Jan-15-11 at 6:01pm | IP Logged  

I decided to write more since you and Jim had asked me some questions. I want to make it clear that my disappointment is NOT with any of you here or in other places where I have shared this same thing. The problem is with me. It has to be, because as I was rightly told, if everywhere someone goes people end up not desiring to be around them, while it is tempting to want to point the finger at everyone else, the problem most likely is with the one pointing the finger. When I say I am sick of being seen according to what is easy to be seen, I am not sick of other people, but of ME, the one projecting what I wish I did not, because it is THAT which others end up seeing and making decisions based upon. I know I have a very warped understanding of what I think family and friends should be. This is probably wrong to think, but if someone lives pretty close to you and never gets together with you when they could, then I have to assume that person sees something in that person that causes them to not desire getting to know them better in that way. This has happened to me not once, but on 5 occasions within the past few years. I could, and have in the past, say it is something with them, but I have to believe that no, it is something with me. I do not know what else to make of it, especially when those people have no problem going out of their way to meet up with other people where they are at.

I know I am loved and cared for by those here, and by many others. But I do not believe I am someone any of you thinks to themselves that, if we were in close proximity, that you would want to build a meaningful relationship with. And I believe that reason is because of how I come across. That isn't a YOU problem. It is a ME problem. When we are rid of these mortal bodies, I am convinced that these types of things which I know we all experience from time to time will be a thing of the past.

I am not sure if this clears things up more or just muddies things more. I know I have a lot of issues and I want to escape from them. I want to be someone people feel comfortable around and desire to be with, and not just because of what I supposedly know. I know I am not that type of person. I come across as some know it all who is above everyone else. I know this because more than one person has told me so. That is the furthest things from my heart, yet I portray that. This though, is at least some of the cause of why others (appear) to want not much of anything to do with me. What else am I to do except just stay to myself as much as I can? At least then I am not causing others to sigh or feel uncomfortable. If this is part of growth as a believer, why am I not seeing any progress? Things just seem to either remain the same, or actually get worse as I get older.



      

What do you see when you look at me? Not the visible me that your eyes can see. For in Christ I am dead, yet alive and free. Free to be it all, as he lives in me.
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Dave S
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Posted: Jan-16-11 at 3:27pm | IP Logged  

I simply do not like the life that Christ is producing in me, because he apparently does not wish to make it outshine the crap that I also produce, which is typically what others only see.



Therefore, what can we conclude. That the focus would be on the crap that is produced. That the crap that is produced is under judgement by a law and by a law condemned. Freedom is yours my brother, feel free to focus on that which Christ has put to death,but don't come whineing for sympathy whilst denying that which Christ has accomplished.

Feel free, dear one to suffer the consequences of the demands of the law. I will not stand in your way, but rather LET,as my Father LETS.

I hope it wearies you, for as long as it wearied me, until it's death is recognised as accomplished in all of it's finality.

Feed upon the crap, analyse it, let it swallow you up, let it it dig its vile pit and let the pit be your prison.

But let it be known that it is in the mind of the I and the me (mentioned so many times in your epistle). Yeah go ahead count them!!

It is not from the mind of Christ, your ONLY true lover, ONLY true companion, and Lord.

XXXXXXX

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gregoryfl
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Posted: Jan-16-11 at 5:25pm | IP Logged  

No worries bro. You won't hear any whining from me. I know you speak out of love. I spoke to Sherri last night and was able to more explain the crap I am wallowing in. Our Father is faithful to see me through it, just as he did you, and anyone else who has gone through it.



      

What do you see when you look at me? Not the visible me that your eyes can see. For in Christ I am dead, yet alive and free. Free to be it all, as he lives in me.
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Dave S
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Posted: Jan-16-11 at 7:02pm | IP Logged  

<Our Father is faithful to see me through it, just as he did you, and anyone else who has gone through it.>

Amen and Amen

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