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Real Life in Christ
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Subject Topic: Not peace, but a sword.
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Broken Link
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Posted: Jun-16-11 at 10:00pm | IP Logged  

Matthew wrote:
Jesus: “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring
peace, but a sword. For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER
AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;"
-Matthew 10:34-35, NASB
When this is preached, it always gets turned into the man rejecting his father because he would
not "accept the truth" (and daughter against mother, etc.).

So, why does he later say?:
Matthew wrote:
Jesus: "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who
loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me
."
-Matthew 10:37

Did he just turn another equation to a religious formula on its head?!



      

Bill
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Dignz
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i would love it if you wouldn't mind explaining or expounding your thoughts more here bill.  'cuz when it comes to scriptures, i can get pretty confused.  but i don't want to miss where YOU are coming from, going, meaning, etc. 

i love how He has made it even possible to love Him more by miraculously giving us His life and love and spirit ... otherwise ... it would be an impossible expectation ... an impossible thing for man to conjure up, maintain and sustain.  i thank God for the miraculous life He has provided ... we know and trust that He is the One Who sustains and maintains ... supports and holds together ... love, love, love.   

i haven't read that passage in a long time and i would like to know what you get from it.  'cuz when i read certain things they can still throw me for a loop. 




      

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Posted: Jun-18-11 at 12:09pm | IP Logged  

Sherri,

It is a thought that popped into my head in relation to your insufficiency thread that seemed to move
off-topic before it even started. Some ideas start with poor memory of a scripture. I may have an idea
that I think is linked to a scripture, only it doesn't quite fit as neatly as I thought it did. Then I
read and see something else nearby in the scripture that isn't at all how I remember it from the old
chruch days.

I think that is how this started.

Anyways, a thought I have is that we always act as if the sword was meant to be wielded. What if it just
is? It isn't that I have to take a sword to cut myself off from someone who doesn't believe, or who
won't accept what I believe, I didn't bring a sword.

In my experience, this scripture is used to justify rejecting family members and even excluding them
from our lives if they don't accept Christ. Hell, some of that happens naturally based on personality
and location.

I don't understand it all exactly myself right now, but I find it hard to see this as a justification to
reject/exclude/cut-off someone. I suspect that there is a thread to this scripture that we missed.
Perhaps we assumed that it stopped earlier or began later than it actually did in the discourse? Perhaps
we assumed that the subject was changed when it was still being addressed?

Consider this:
Matthew wrote:
Jesus: "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will
rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. You will be hated by all because of My name,
but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved."
-Matthew 10:21-22

So, maybe all of this discussion isn't about rejecting because they don't believe, but being rejected
because we believe. Verse 37 then becomes about pleasing others to avoid conflict/rejection and all of a
sudden it fits into verses 32-33:
Matthew wrote:
Jesus: "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My
Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is
in heaven."
-Matthew 10:32-33

In the end, the rejection and/or denial becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

      

Bill
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luvin
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Matthew wrote:
Jesus: "Brother will betray brother to death, and a
father his child; and children will
rise up against parents and cause them to be put to
death. You will be hated by all because of My name,
but it is the one who has endured to the end who
will be saved."
-Matthew 10:21-22

So, maybe all of this discussion isn't about
rejecting because they don't believe, but being
rejected
because we believe.-Bill


Bill,

If I may add my support in what you are saying. I
think you are exactly right in that this is NOT
saying WE need to reject those that do not believe
but, indeed it speaks of the persecution they were
about to face. The Apostles WERE going to be betrayed and turned over and hated, even by their
own families for the sake of true riteousnes in Jesus.


Good stuff you are considering, thanks for expanding
on it.

Adam

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

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Posted: Jun-18-11 at 12:51pm | IP Logged  

i so know what you mean about one thought stimulating another which may or may not have anything to do with the original thought presented, etc.  i relate with that 100%, as everyone here has fallen victim to my many off -twail wabbity adventures.    it is after all how the brain works with so much information up there, isn't it?  it can wander in and out of thoughts and ideas many times even within a moment's time.  

i think i can see where you are coming from in using that passage and others like it from the perspective of considering how various religious cults and even religious christianity, (which isn't really christianity after all, is it) use those passages ...  the idea/belief/interpretation that 'if you don't believe what i believe then i can not have ANY-thing to do with you or you with me', etc.  ... that we must 'deny' and 'avoid' one another at all cost ... even within families.

for now, i must be off ... much to do ... i hope i can come back to this.  i enjoy very much your thoughts and sharings here bill!    i so hope that my questions do not discourage you or anyone else from sharing more, 'cuz .... i just have to ask questions to know where someone is coming from and where they are and where they want to go with what they say, etc. 'cuz ... i need all the help i can get.  i don't want to 'miss' anything.  i just don't 'get it' very easily all the time with the first things said.  ask jim, i drive him nuts with all my questions.  YEARS and DECADES of QUESTIONS and more QUESTIONS.  i have driven enuff people here at the shack nuts with my questions, too i am sure.        

thank you for your graciousness in explaining to me more of where you were/are coming from, etc.      




Edited by Dignz on Jun-19-11 at 3:39am


      

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adam, i think we must have been typing at the same time on our posts.    i really enjoy and appreciate what you shared here, supporting bill's thoughts.  very good stuff.     thank you both! 




      

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goof
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Hi everyone! - Nice forum here :) - I could not help myself to answer Bill about that sword concept that has been a hot topic for many and for long.

This is how I modestly understand the all thing:

With Christianity, God is no longer a Being above and beyond this world, an Unknown, for He has told men what He is, and this not merely in an outward way in history, but in consciousness.
We have here, accordingly, the religion of the manifestation of God, since God knows Himself in the finite spirit. This simply means that God is revealed.
And Christ is the true taking up of this finitude into the Universal; the divine moment when He overcome the world.
Now, the finitude that remains in the world has further to be discarded by the labour of Spirit.

This finitude is nothingness, and can only be revealed to consciousness through misery and sorrow (the pure depth of the soul). The misery, the sorrow of the world, is the condition, the preparation on the subjective side for the consciousness of free Spirit, as the absolutely free and consequently infinite Spirit.

(Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed. Luk 2:35

This is for the "Sword"

Now, on the family side, we must go back to the narrative of the time.
Christ is addressing Himself to the Jews. And for the Jews, the end of God in the world, the concreteness of His substantiality, is the Nation (the chosen people); and most particularly, the family.
Now for us, Christians, it feels obvious that the incarnation, the concreteness of God, is the end of God in this world ("... for the things concerning me have an end" - Luk 22:37;) - but not for the Jews.
So, much sorrow and misery has and will therefore arise, when they realise that the end of God is not the family; but, instead, the finite Spirit that goes back to Infinity. Even if they remain the chosen people. Much sorrow and misery will arise, when those who will realise, will clash with those who don't. Like what happens today with the Jews for Jesus in Israel; being rejected because they believe.

Now, does it hold for us, Christians, as well?
In a sense - Yes!
In the sense that Christ is the finite Spirit that went back to Himself and, from now on, Spirit is what is bringing us back to God; back to the Tree of Life.
The finite spirit of ours, must encounter and coincide with this Spirit; be in harmony with It and, most of all, be absolutely for It.
Some people understand this, and clash or will clash with the "religious christianity" (as Mary rightly calls it,) that they painfully experience within the circle of their family.
For the misery of this world is growing, as it is written; and so is false humility.





Edited by goof on Jun-19-11 at 4:01pm


      

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:23
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mary
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Anyways, a thought I have is that we always act as if the sword was meant to be wielded. What if it just
is? It isn't that I have to take a sword to cut myself off from someone who doesn't believe, or who
won't accept what I believe, I didn't bring a sword.

   I love this!  This 'is' thing.  This 'is' doesn't exist because I made it so,  I don't stand on the basis of some self-righteousness OF my own , the Sword is Him. Period.


    And so the 2nd and 3rd sections of Matthew you posted are facts: is, exist.  Plain Jane. 
   
    I'm pondering the 3rd section, and your comment.

    I think you 'wielded a sword' Bill. 

    

 


Edited by mary on Jun-19-11 at 11:44pm


      

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Broken Link
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Thanks, Adam.

Sherri,

It was your post that got me thinking in this direction when I was
typing out an unposted response. This thread OP was salvaged from that
response, and then, your questioned spurred me to take a closer look at
the thought. So, I don't believe that your questions drive everyone
crazy...just Jim.

goof,

I'm not sure was intended to support an overarching doctrine or view on
God and his plan. I wasn't necessarily trying to figure the whole
question out either, just what Jesus was saying when he was so rudely
interrupted by the chruch's "religious christianity".

Mary,

Even then, would I be the one wielding the sword?



      

Bill
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mary
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    No Bill, YOU wouldn't be.  

 


      

Mary
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Dignz
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that was great mclady!   
 
ya know what is silly.     i originally just saw there was a new thread and discussion topic by bill and got all excited and went to read it and totally overlooked the title altogether ... -> ("not peace but a sword")        

when i think of Jesus wielding a sword, i think of it being 'the sword of Truth', which i would think to be the very words He spoke, since (as mclady was saying) HE IS the Living Word Himself.  (the WORD became flesh)   we all know that truth does not always create 'peace', but can certainly most often turn peoples' lives completely upside down and stir up all kinds of discomfort, chaos and a forcing to perhaps rethink whatever needs to be rethought, etc.   that is certainly part of the effect the sword of truth has. 

"Some ideas start with poor memory of a scripture. I may have an idea that I think is linked to a scripture, only it doesn't quite fit as neatly as I thought it did. Then I read and see something else nearby in the scripture that isn't at all how I remember it from the old church days."  <-bill

i so get that ...  i so relate with that ... 100%. 
 
it is so wonderful to have some dialogue with you guyz!  it seems so far and few in-between these days, doesn't it?   




Edited by Dignz on Jun-20-11 at 3:09pm


      

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at times i think i know what you are saying, Goof ... and then i don't.  but either way,  don't let that stop or discourage you ... welcome to our discussions.    like i mentioned before, i don't always get things at first reading.  most of the time i have to read and re-read and read again.  

this is a thought direction i have that has been stimulated from what you shared:

from what i understand, for believers, christians, those born of God ... or whatever 'label' one may want to give those who belong to God ... we have the very Spirit of Christ ... the very Life of God ... He Is our miraculous new Life.  we are the New Creation in Him.  that Spirit IS infinite, eternal and always for and in-harmony-with Himself in us.  it is the lie from the lie-ing one who accuses us and convinces us other-wise, however temporarily.  GOD has no delusions about His miraculous and satisfied work concerning us, and it is His very Spirit of Life within these temporary bodies Who witnesses, testifies and reminds us over and over again, that He Is our Life ... that we have been joined in a miraculous union of One Spirit ... HIS.  who can explain how that is done?  who can explain a true miracle, except that it is sourced and worked by God Himself?  i only know of one Spirit in Whom we have anything  to do and that is His.  i do not know that we are a bunch of independent 'spirits' who must get in-tune and in-harmony with His, as if we are separate from him and each other, if you know what i mean? 

well ... anyway ... i know this can be a touchy, confusing topic, issue, subject or what have you.    i know it can be for me anyway.     but i do not mind more discussion concerning it, 'cuz ... well .... maybe some things will be clarified for me.      ????




      

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goof
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Broken Link wrote:

goof,
I'm not sure was intended to support an overarching doctrine or view on God and his plan.


I was not intending it either. That would be too much of an overwhelming task for such a humble man like me ;)

Dignz wrote:
i do not know that we are a bunch of independent 'spirits' who must get in-tune and in-harmony with His, as if we are separate from him and each other, if you know what i mean?


You are touching a very interesting point here, namely, the freedom of man.
For if God takes back Himself to Himself in Christ; there must be somehow some freedom from this incarnation, that goes back to God; if He wants to be Absolute Freedom; which He is. In other words, God can be Absolutely Free, only if His revealed incarnation, as man in Christ, is free Itself. This is why man HAS TO be free.

In fact, these "independant spirits" are the Spirit of God Himself, and they HAVE TO be free, because God is Absolute Freedom.

What do you think?

Edited by goof on Jun-20-11 at 3:54pm


      

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:23
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I dunno ... what do you mean by God wanting to be totally free?  where do you get the idea that He is not 'free'?  if we want to wax philosophical then i guess we could claim that GOD is only bound to Himself.  i guess i never thought of that as a 'bondage' per se. 

I think that GOD IS ... the very source and definition of 'Free'.  man lost his 'freedom' when Adam lost his.  man is only truly free-ed in the New Creation.  otherwise, he is in bondage to that which is of the earth ... earthy ... in and from Adam ...   the New Creation is of the very Spirit of God Himself ... godly, heavenly, spiritual ... forever and eternally 'NEW' and very much ALIVE to GOD in Christ Jesus Himself. 

I don't see the issue to be of whether or not GOD is free.  The issue at hand is whether or not man is free.





 

      

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goof
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Dignz wrote:
what do you mean by God wanting to be totally free? 

God does not Want to; God IS Absolute freedom. So, when He reveals His image in the creation as man; it implies that man Has to be free.
And if we think about it, the first act of freedom of man was when Adam took that stupid decision to take his freedom from God (Darn!). :)
Now, this necessity of freedom, in man, might explain why God is forever merciful.


Edited by goof on Jun-21-11 at 4:06am


      

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:23
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Dignz
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i am thinking that originally, man was free.  i am thinking that all in adam, like adam, are not free.  the original 'free man' adam, lost freedom.  the only 'free man' is the New Creation ... God in man ... a miraculous New birth ... a New man.  Jesus Christ was the New man ... God in man ... the New Free Man.  all in adam are in bondage to the old.  all in Christ are free in the miraculous NEW.   

God's image in the original man was lost.  His image was then provided and found in the New Man Jesus Christ.  the New Man ... the New Adam ... walked and talked and was seen and touched and yet ... was not seen and touched and known by all when He was right before their very eyes, noses, ears and touch.  it is still true to this day in all who are the New Creation walking and talking, being seen, heard and touched up to right now today and for however temporarily long a time there is still to pass.

God is forever merciful because that is His Nature, and yet we know that it is not the sum total of His nature. 

for man to be free-ed from his bondage inherited from the first adam, he must be found in the New Adam ... Jesus Christ.  for then his New Life is found with God hidden in Christ Jesus. 

it proclaims absolute miracle to me. 




      

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mary
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Sherri said:

for man to be free-ed from his bondage inherited from the first adam, he must be found in the New Adam ... Jesus Christ.  for then his New Life is found with God hidden in Christ Jesus. 

  Jumping in here for a second:  LOVE THIS!  Edification for us in our identification!


      

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goof
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mary wrote:
... God hidden in Christ Jesus.


Hidden, hum!
That sounds a bit gnostic.
I detect some old aristocratic paganism here.

Do we have to be "initiated", Mary?
I thought God had been revealed; and although Christ spoke in parables; these parables are in no way hidden. The candle is not to remain under the bed, as He said.
That is an argument for the synagogue of satan. The brotherhood of lucifer. You know who I am talking about.

You are scaring me Mary :)




      

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:23
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Goof,

We have had a few people stop through here over the
years[for most of us here have been here close to a
decade or more] and 'share' with us according to
their measurable knowledge from that of the world,
however 'wondrous'[deeply intellectual] sounding.
The wisdom that comes from God is not that which has
its source in the world and is therefore not within
the realm of measurements and egos. I have seen some
come here that have openly stated[once challenged a
bit] that they were 'hoping' we could comprehend the
vast knowledge they have been 'given' by God because
of the sense of deep communication that resides
here. The Gnostics were nothing more than a human
being [not in Christ] sharing and comparing their
very own darkened understanding[aka: "knowledge"]
with the rest of the world around them meanwhile
throwing off the confidence that was once in the
REAL children of God birthed in and through Jesus
Christ.

My friend God is not of flesh that he can be
'revealed' by natural means. No, rather those that
have the mind of Christ HAVE known Him who is true
and only get tripped up by the very things cloaked
as 'freedom.'[aka: "knowledge"]

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

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goof
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luvin wrote:
God is not of flesh that he can be
'revealed' by natural means.


I just can't agree with that.
It looks like you're just caught in between the Jewish substantial inaccessible God, and this "gnostic" subjectivity of a spirit (almost an emanation) that dwells into Christ within us.

Nothing is hidden; unless you belong to some esoteric brotherhood.

What do you think?

      

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:23
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Welcome to the Shovel Shack, goof. How did you happen to find your way here, by the way? I'm always curious how people find the forum.

I was wondering something in what you wrote below:

goof wrote:

God does not Want to; God IS Absolute freedom. So, when He reveals His image in the creation as man; it implies that man Has to be free.
And if we think about it, the first act of freedom of man was when Adam took that stupid decision to take his freedom from God (Darn!). :)
Now, this necessity of freedom, in man, might explain why God is forever merciful.


Why would you assume that Adam's "stupid decision" was his first act of freedom? While the account is rather short, there are a few statements that indicate what I would consider acts of freedom. Adam cultivated and kept the garden, he named all the animals, he accepted and joined himself to the woman God made for him. Somehow, I imagine that defined a huge part of perhaps a number of years before his fatal mistake. I know that many have considered Adam's eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil as an act of freedom, but I think it describes something other than freedom. Maybe we shouldn't assume along with the world as to the real meaning of freedom. What do you think? :)

Jim


      

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goof
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The beauty of Christianity resides in the fact that the truth of the realness of God has been revealed. By overcoming the world, Christ have given the way to the Spirit. And the work of the Spirit is to take back the creation of God to Himself; ideally.

A poor analogy would be to compare the all thing to an artist that creates some work of art. The creation is mostly for himself. To know himself in the process of his creation.
What is the most important to him is to take back the goodness of the all process, ideally. Selling the stuff is just the cherry on the cake.

I said "poor analogy"!

If men of all religions, within the Truth more or less revealed in each of these religions, were to consider themselves as the object of God, and God as their Absolute object (and more precisely, as making God the object of Himself as their Absolute object); If men of all religions were to do this, then, not only God would find in it his absolute pleasure; but, moreover, we would stop arguing on what seems to be some very subjective points of views.


the shovel wrote:
Maybe we shouldn't assume along with the world as to the real meaning of freedom. :)Jim


As for freedom, lets take the example of the artist.
Only when he knows himself in the creation of his work of art, is he free.
And the work of art must have the quality of freedom as well. There must be some release in the process. Release that is inherent to the creator.

For freedom means to be self-contained, or at home with oneself.
And, in my humble opinion, this is what God is longing for.
And our "freedom" has not yet given Him the opportunity to fulfill that desire.

So the question is: "what kind of absolute freedom, in man, would meet the freedom of God, so as to make one and fulfill Him?"




Edited by goof on Jun-22-11 at 4:46am


      

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mary
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    Ya know, when I made the comment to Sherri, I was talking about the many aspects of the Life of Christ that have been revealed to us since the moment God called and raised us from the dead together with/in Him:  when through revelation by the Holy Spirit the Good News was made clear. It was a personal encouragement.


   



Edited by mary on Jun-21-11 at 3:35pm


      

Mary
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goof wrote:
luvin wrote:
God is not of flesh
that he can be
'revealed' by natural means.


I just can't agree with that.
It looks like you're just caught in between the
Jewish substantial inaccessible God, and this
"gnostic" subjectivity of a spirit (almost an
emanation) that dwells into Christ within us.

Nothing is hidden; unless you belong to some
esoteric brotherhood.

What do you think?



Well, I will tell you exactly what I think. The
first thing is that I don't belong to an esoteric
brotherhood last time I checked. The second thing I
will say is that MANY things are not as they appear.
While it may LOOK like I[or we] am caught in between
some earthly definable human designation, I can tell
you honestly that I am not. Of course even my honest
statement can be forced right back into natural
wisdom as well. If you have been given eyes to
see then I wish that you would come to use those
eyes according to Life in Christ and see me as I
truly am.

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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goof
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Posted: Jun-21-11 at 5:39pm | IP Logged  

luvin wrote:
right back into natural wisdom as well.


Nature is like the medium that the artist uses on his canvas.
Yet, the thought that the artist puts in his work, must come back to him, ideally; leaving the medium as it is.
Although you might sense something in his work of art; what is important for him, is what you understand of the artist himself.
So what matters is not a particular Van Gogh; but Van Gogh himself.

Furthermore, does the artist takes pleasure in your edification, or does he take pleasure in the fact that you understand him?
- That you understand him, right?

Natural wisdom must be the medium of something higher, doesn' it?

luvin wrote:

If you have been given eyes to see then I wish that you would come to use those eyes according to Life in Christ and see me as I truly am.


Well, this is very esoteric to me, and I can't be satisfied with predicates of this nature; mostly when they are kind of enigmatic.
And as far as I am concerned, I accept only this "eyes to see, and ears to hear" when it comes to the parables of the Lord. Even if your interpretation is right Luvin, and it certainly is.



Edited by goof on Jun-21-11 at 5:48pm


      

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:23
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Broken Link
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goof,

I meant, despite my incomplete sentence, that I wasn't trying to define sword as a universal
explanation, just in the context of the discussion with his disciples that I was highlighting, and in
the context of how I learned that growing up in my Christianity experience. What I read now is not
what I and many others have been taught.

Jesus calls to his disciples' minds a prophesied family conflict - quite possibly a very familiar
verse - and explains that these are their families, and even our families, because he has come among
us. Plenty are rejected because they do not share the majority opinion. You might reject us, or we
might reject you, because we don't understand each other. Being rejected for what you believe is not
a determinant of truth.

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth...," he says. As if to say, "I know that you are
excited now that you understand, and you believe that everyone will want to share that joy with
you..., but that is not how this works."

At this point, the message isn't the Great Commission. The message is instead a simple follow on to
John the Baptist's, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”" Jesus tells them, "And as you
go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’" And the disciples were thinking, "Surely,
this great thing will be an easy sell! We have seen it. We can testify."

I know why I am rejected, because the kingdom doesn't look like what they wanted.

      

Bill
theHarryTick™
heretic - n 1: a person who holds beliefs in conflict with the dogma of the church.
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the shovel
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Posted: Jun-21-11 at 7:26pm | IP Logged  

goof wrote:


And as far as I am concerned, I accept only this "eyes to see, and ears to hear" when it comes to the parables of the Lord.


That's rather selective. Would you say then that Paul's following statements to the Corinthians are only to be considered in a similar selective fashion?

Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; but just as it is written, “THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM.”   For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.  But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.  (1 Corinthians 2:6-16, NASB)

Jim


      

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goof
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Bill wrote:
Being rejected for what you believe is not a determinant of truth.


I agree a 100%.
Truth is certainly not in the relation between two beliefs, but certainly more in the overcoming of the differences.


Jim wrote:

That's rather selective. Would you say then that Paul's following statements to the Corinthians are only to be considered in a similar selective fashion?

Well Jim, this is why I have such a hard time with Paul. And somewhat, I agree with Elaine Pagels when she says that Paul was a gnostic.
In fact, the term gnostic might be a bit overstated; as far as Pagels is one of them.
But there is certainly in Paul, a certain attraction to the mysteries of the Bacchus of Thracia, where he made many sojourns (Philippi, Neapolis, Amphipolis.) Mysteries which embraced exalted ideas in regard to immortality and future life.
Let's not forget that Peter and James had a hard time with him; particularly James.

So, as far as I am concerned, I like to stick to what the Lord said.
And as far as mystery is concerned, the Lord did speak about it in a very clear way. Namely, that it is only the mystery of the kingdom of God; and it is given away in His parables (for those who are able to see and hear.)
The rest might easily fall into pleroma, kabbalah or any other esoteric, abstract, transcendental realm.

Now, this is my point of view; and I am the only one to be accountable for it.

Edited by goof on Jun-22-11 at 4:48am


      

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:23
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Dignz
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adam, i enjoyed your post very much.  i relate with your post very much. 

for one to know the things ('mysteries') of GOD, one must have the very Spirit of the Living God.  GOD is not known or explained merely by the intellect or the philosophical, but by the eternal Spirit of GOD Himself.  without the Spirit of God, all attempts to know and explain GOD are exercises in futility ... futility of the wisdom of the world.  there is the wisdom of the world, and there is the wisdom of GOD.  they are diametrically opposed.  man speaks from either one or the other.  light or darkness.  life or death.  truth or deception/lie.  flesh or spirit.  etc.

Jesus Christ was, is and always shall be the perfectly expressed image of GOD in man.  He was and is the first-fruit of all who come after Him in the life and spirit of GOD.  GOD is Spirit and is worshiped in Spirit.  He is known in Spirit.  the only way the body of man can know GOD is to be indwelt by His very Spirit.  however, i believe the body of man (any man, any body) can be used by GOD for His purposes/will.  He has even been known to speak through an ass.    If He wanted, He could speak through a stone. 

i know that from the perspective of the wisdom of the world, this GOD we know is merely esoteric, abstract, transcendental, and/or whatever other label man loves to attach, but ... so be it.  i do not believe that GOD is limited by any labels set by or from man or any worldly wisdom, be it religion, politics, philosophy, art, science or ... fill in the blank.  HE is in the miracle business (so to speak) ... the very Source of the miraculous ... miracles declaring His very power ... declaring Himself.   man is not in control of GOD or HIS miracles, but he loves to think he is sometimes.  it makes him feel like he is the powerful one ~ delusions of grandeur.  

getting carried away here, perhaps ... i will quit for now ....




Edited by Dignz on Jun-22-11 at 11:58pm


      

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the shovel
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Posted: Jun-22-11 at 3:33pm | IP Logged  

goof wrote:
Well Jim, this is why I have such a hard time with Paul. And somewhat, I agree with Elaine Pagels when she says that Paul was a gnostic.
In fact, the term gnostic might be a bit overstated; as far as Pagels is one of them.
But there is certainly in Paul, a certain attraction to the mysteries of the Bacchus of Thracia, where he made many sojourns (Philippi, Neapolis, Amphipolis.) Mysteries which embraced exalted ideas in regard to immortality and future life.
Let's not forget that Peter and James had a hard time with him; particularly James.


It is fully understandable that Peter, James AND John would have a hard time with Paul. After all, these men had been with Jesus, and they heard him speak first-hand. And they were there when Jesus sent them out with the good news. Paul was not. Instead, Paul persecuted those believed in Christ. We know this from Paul himself, for he did not try to hide it but to make it known publicly that he saw himself as least of the apostles. On the other hand, once Peter, James and John became convinced that Paul had been chosen by Christ to take the message of grace to the non-Jewish world — even though many Jews were included within the sphere of his ministry — they heartily endorsed him.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming you know that Peter wrote of "our beloved brother Paul" in his 2nd letter (at least the second that we know of). He wanted those to whom he wrote to be confident in the wisdom that God had given to Paul. For Peter knew they had received letters from him. That would have been a good time for Peter to have denounced Paul, or at least to caution against him. Perhaps you assume that Peter's comment about that which was hard to understand had to do his own difficulties regarding Paul's writings. However, I am more inclined to see it in context as those things that were twisted and distorted by the "untaught and unstable." Peter didn't actually claim that those things were hard for HIM to understand, just that they were the difficult words that people used to distort Paul's meaning. If Peter's purpose had really been to cast some sort of doubt upon the wisdom God gave to Paul, as found in the letters they had received from him, he wouldn't have so highly endorsed Paul. In view of Peter's statements, his concern was to make sure the believers understood that those who twisted Paul's words were the same kind of people who twisted and distorted the rest of Scripture.

Why would you think that James especially had a hard time with Paul? I don't doubt that James was put into a difficult situation as leader of the council in Jerusalem when the issue of circumcision was being argued by those who wanted to make the Gentiles comply by saying they couldn't be saved without it. But he clearly sided with both  Peter and Paul by declaring that the Gentiles were in no way under the Jewish Law. Not even regarding circumcision. James also gave to Paul "the right hand of fellowship" along with Peter and John. Paul's strong comments in his letter to the Galatian believers about "certain men from James" did not indicate that either James or Paul had a problem with one another, rather that the news of the coming of particular men from James had stirred up intimidation within the believers. As a matter of fact, the intimidation was so strong that even the fearless Peter fell back into his old judgments of law by how he began to act around the Gentiles. And that's why Paul called him out in front of everybody.

Peter, James and John got over their difficulties with Paul. They also learned much more of the grace of God because of it. Why? Because even though they walked with Christ Jesus while he was on the earth in bodily form, they had heard him with the ears of those who were on the dead side of the cross. Their short-lived insights along the way only accentuated the fleshly mind they tried to force Jesus into. Jesus even told them that they did not understand ... but that they would. In sharp contrast to those who walked with Jesus and heard him speak, Paul's experience as a Hebrew of the Hebrews and as a Pharisee and as being righteous according to the Law and born of the tribe of Benjamin gave him a unique insight. For he personally understood the extent of the Law and the deceptions of those who preached it. His understanding of the intricate details of the religious mind of Israel, and therefore that of the rest of the world, was all part of God's gracious gift to the church in making known the far-reaching extent of the grace of God that was brought about in Christ. Don't you realize that the ministry of the rest of the apostles were enriched by what God brought about in Paul?

So what's your real reason for not getting over your problem with Paul, as did Peter and James?

Jim


Edited by the shovel on Jun-22-11 at 3:33pm


      

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Dignz
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wow ... that was awesome, james!  i love the background info!  i love that it is all about the work of GOD in Christ Jesus and in all who GOD gave to the Son and continues to draw to Himself.  

it is wonderful to read of the work of God in and through the apostles and our beloved brother Paul ... and just as precious to read and hear of His work in the lives of any and all.  and if we know of nothing else, the most precious is how we know Him and His work and Life in us, regardless of what others may or may not believe, or see or hear in us.  

thank you for the encouragement and support you always bring to and from the love and life of God. 




      

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luvin
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Dignz wrote:
adam, i enjoyed your post very much.  i relate with your post very much. 

for one to know the things ('mysteries') of GOD, one must have the very Spirit of the Living God.  GOD is not known or explained merely by the intellect or the philosophical, but by the eternal Spirit of GOD Himself.  without the Spirit of God, all attempts to know and explain GOD are exercises in futility ... futility of the wisdom of the world.  there is the wisdom of the world, and there is the wisdom of GOD.  they are diametrically opposed.  man speaks from either one or the other.  light or darkness.  life or death.  truth or deception/lie.  flesh or spirit.  etc.

Jesus Christ was, is and always shall be the perfectly expressed image of GOD in man.  He was and is the first-fruit of all who come after Him in the life and spirit of GOD.  GOD is Spirit and is worshiped in Spirit.  He is known in Spirit.  the only way the body of man can know GOD is to be indwelt by His very Spirit.  however, i believe the body of man (any man, any body) can be used by GOD for His purposes/will.  He has even been known to speak through an ass.    If He wanted, He could speak through a stone. 

i know that from the perspective of the wisdom of the world, this GOD we know is merely esoteric, abstract, transcendental, and/or whatever other label man loves to attach, but ... so be it.  i do not believe that GOD is limited by any labels set by or from man or any worldly wisdom, be it religion, politics, philosophy, art, science or ... fill in the blank.  HE is in the miracle business (so to speak) ... the very Source of the miraculous ... miracles declaring His very power ... declaring Himself.   man is not in control of GOD or HIS miracles, but he loves to think he is sometimes.  it makes him feel like he is the powerful one ~ delusions of grandeur.  

getting carried away here, perhaps ... i will quit for now ....


 

Excellent relating here!

Love,

Adam



      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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luvin
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the shovel wrote:
goof wrote:
Well Jim, this is why I have such a hard time with Paul. And somewhat, I agree with Elaine Pagels when she says that Paul was a gnostic.
In fact, the term gnostic might be a bit overstated; as far as Pagels is one of them.
But there is certainly in Paul, a certain attraction to the mysteries of the Bacchus of Thracia, where he made many sojourns (Philippi, Neapolis, Amphipolis.) Mysteries which embraced exalted ideas in regard to immortality and future life.
Let's not forget that Peter and James had a hard time with him; particularly James.


It is fully understandable that Peter, James AND John would have a hard time with Paul. After all, these men had been with Jesus, and they heard him speak first-hand. And they were there when Jesus sent them out with the good news. Paul was not. Instead, Paul persecuted those believed in Christ. We know this from Paul himself, for he did not try to hide it but to make it known publicly that he saw himself as least of the apostles. On the other hand, once Peter, James and John became convinced that Paul had been chosen by Christ to take the message of grace to the non-Jewish world — even though many Jews were included within the sphere of his ministry — they heartily endorsed him.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming you know that Peter wrote of "our beloved brother Paul" in his 2nd letter (at least the second that we know of). He wanted those to whom he wrote to be confident in the wisdom that God had given to Paul. For Peter knew they had received letters from him. That would have been a good time for Peter to have denounced Paul, or at least to caution against him. Perhaps you assume that Peter's comment about that which was hard to understand had to do his own difficulties regarding Paul's writings. However, I am more inclined to see it in context as those things that were twisted and distorted by the "untaught and unstable." Peter didn't actually claim that those things were hard for HIM to understand, just that they were the difficult words that people used to distort Paul's meaning. If Peter's purpose had really been to cast some sort of doubt upon the wisdom God gave to Paul, as found in the letters they had received from him, he wouldn't have so highly endorsed Paul. In view of Peter's statements, his concern was to make sure the believers understood that those who twisted Paul's words were the same kind of people who twisted and distorted the rest of Scripture.

Why would you think that James especially had a hard time with Paul? I don't doubt that James was put into a difficult situation as leader of the council in Jerusalem when the issue of circumcision was being argued by those who wanted to make the Gentiles comply by saying they couldn't be saved without it. But he clearly sided with both  Peter and Paul by declaring that the Gentiles were in no way under the Jewish Law. Not even regarding circumcision. James also gave to Paul "the right hand of fellowship" along with Peter and John. Paul's strong comments in his letter to the Galatian believers about "certain men from James" did not indicate that either James or Paul had a problem with one another, rather that the news of the coming of particular men from James had stirred up intimidation within the believers. As a matter of fact, the intimidation was so strong that even the fearless Peter fell back into his old judgments of law by how he began to act around the Gentiles. And that's why Paul called him out in front of everybody.

Peter, James and John got over their difficulties with Paul. They also learned much more of the grace of God because of it. Why? Because even though they walked with Christ Jesus while he was on the earth in bodily form, they had heard him with the ears of those who were on the dead side of the cross. Their short-lived insights along the way only accentuated the fleshly mind they tried to force Jesus into. Jesus even told them that they did not understand ... but that they would. In sharp contrast to those who walked with Jesus and heard him speak, Paul's experience as a Hebrew of the Hebrews and as a Pharisee and as being righteous according to the Law and born of the tribe of Benjamin gave him a unique insight. For he personally understood the extent of the Law and the deceptions of those who preached it. His understanding of the intricate details of the religious mind of Israel, and therefore that of the rest of the world, was all part of God's gracious gift to the church in making known the far-reaching extent of the grace of God that was brought about in Christ. Don't you realize that the ministry of the rest of the apostles were enriched by what God brought about in Paul?

So what's your real reason for not getting over your problem with Paul, as did Peter and James?

Jim

 

Jim,

 

I really enjoyed the sense of clarity [you always bring] you are bringing here.

 

 

Love,

Adam



      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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Dignz
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csnarnia
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Posted: Jun-24-11 at 10:43am | IP Logged  

Jesus is always the answer....that's what I love about
this place.

      

"We are not on the road to success...we are on the success road." Coach Frosty Westering
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Broken Link
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Interesting how at the end of Acts, James and the
other elders in Jerusalem received Paul and praised
God when they heard his reports of Gentiles believing
in Jesus.

      

Bill
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heretic - n 1: a person who holds beliefs in conflict with the dogma of the church.
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Dignz
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the shovel
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Hello Bill! :)

You know, I think there have been many false assumptions as to how the other apostles regarded Paul, and vice versa. Of course, we could say the same thing about Jesus and his disciples. After all, there were many situations where the disciples not only misunderstood him but also gave him some real attitudes and a lot of grief. We don't go around speculating as to the ongoing problems they had with Jesus, for we know they eventually saw him with different eyes.

Oh, something I forgot to mention with the whole situation recorded in Galatia about "certain men from James" is that it doesn't even suggest that James specifically sent them, just that they had been part of the group. Notice how in Acts 15 it simply says "certain ones of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed." I suspect the fact that Paul didn't give their identities was significant for two reasons. The first is that I am sure they had heard all about how Peter's testimony before James in Jerusalem helped to turn the tide against the movement being promoted by these men. In other words, they already had a good idea as to what kind of men they were. The other reason, that just like in Paul's letter to the Corinthians, he didn't want to give them any reason to boast by having been mentioned, for the notoriety may have been turned into some kind of promotion.

Now I don't remember reading anywhere that the circumcision group took their toys and went home, which means that they were most likely still hanging around after the heavy debate and subsequent decision against their teaching. Just because they may have submitted themselves to James' verdict didn't mean that they agreed with it. Peter knew who these "certain men" were, and word that they were coming to his location shook him up pretty hard. Why? Because unless he made some quick changes, he knew what they would say about his behavior. And he was afraid of their judgment. Why? Because he had been living among the Gentiles without any misgivings based upon any requirements of the Law. Peter's behavior, as Paul wrote to the Galatians was this: "If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews." In Antioch, before the intimidation of an impending visit from those he had so boldly stood against in Jerusalem, Peter didn't even consider that his behavior was in any way out of place, for he was simply living as a free man among free men. All of a sudden, he was faced with how the cautions and warnings of legalistic Jews would seem very justified in view of how far he would appear to have fallen in their eyes.

I remember this kind of fear very well, for I have felt this intimidation many times from "dedicated" Christians before.  And there is only one reality to stand firm in or we will trip and fall into the game of comparison along with them. That's when we really need to remind each other where our life is really found. :)

Jim



      

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luvin
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Jim,

I like your conclusion here. It really hits home for
me. Just remember too that it even goes way beyond
just the 'i.c.' right into those in the world around
us.[i know you know that] Your mother, brother and
sister. Your neighbor, your friend. It doesn't matter
for there are only two places one can stand. In
himself or in Christ. Don't be surprised when the
foolishness of the world is staring right at you
judging, pressuring, comparing and antagonizing you.

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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the shovel
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I should add that at one time, I was that dedicated Christian whose very presence created much intimidation among those who sought freedom.


Edited by the shovel on Jun-26-11 at 5:02am


      

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luvin
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the shovel wrote:

I should add that at one time, I was that dedicated
Christian whose very presence created much
intimidation among those who sought freedom.


Now THAT'S a testimony to the miracle heart of God!~
[love]

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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goof
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Broken Link wrote:
Interesting how at the end of Acts, James and the other elders in Jerusalem received Paul and praised God when they heard his reports of Gentiles believing in Jesus.


Money, money, money!
http://pastehtml.com/view/ayfgm6m7v.html
As well as this, also:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%202:1-2:7&ve rsion=NASB

As I said before, this is MY point of view; and I am thoroughly accountable for it.



To be or not to be?
That is the (wrong) question.

To become!
That is the (right) answer!



Edited by goof on Aug-17-11 at 7:48am


      

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:23
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Dignz
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magic is based on deception/trickery/entertainment etc. which is the best it can do.

miracles are based on the nature of GOD alone, worked/performed/revealed or not when and as He so desires.

the apostle Paul,  was at one time known as Saul, a jew among jews, and yes, he did at one time seek out, persecute and have christians killed.  this was and is not a secret or mystery.   in the midst of that identity and 'purpose' in that identity, he was visited and challenged by the Spirit of God Himself, having experienced a new birth, identity and purposed life, and was soon thereafter led and taught by Him in the desert for quite some time.  

some time shortly after that, as his new identity and purpose as the apostle Paul, he began to publicly admit to, renounce and count but loss his past self-righteous, religious identity and destructive purpose.  he and others with him began to become known to collect money for those in need from one group of people and individuals to redistribute to other groups and individuals along his purposed travels and visits to teach and preach about Jesus Christ Whom he once denied and persecuted.

i don't know what your point is.  ???????




Edited by Dignz on Jun-26-11 at 12:11pm


      

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goof
Digger
Digger


Joined: Jun-19-11
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Posted: Jun-26-11 at 12:45pm | IP Logged  

My point, my point?
hum!

For what I read in Rev 2, Life is for those who overcome (and this is the Lord himself who speaks.) So what is overcoming?

Are the one who call themselves "apostles" able to tell us what that is?
Might as well ask the mormons.

________________

O, miracle; another thing for "ME" (ME,ME,ME.)
I wonder what He gets out of that.
Sounds more like old nick's reward than Old Codger's one.



Edited by goof on Jun-26-11 at 1:06pm


      

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:23
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the shovel
Shackmeister
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Joined: Oct-01-01
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Posted: Jun-26-11 at 1:11pm | IP Logged  

goof wrote:
My point, my point?
hum!

For what I read in Rev 2, Life is for those who overcome (and this is the Lord himself who speaks.) So what is overcoming?

Are the one who call themselves "apostles" able to tell us what that is?
Might as well ask the mormons.


Goof,

You keep referring to the words of the Lord as if you really believe them, and them only, but you conveniently seem to disregard his words about how he would speak through those who have his spirit. And you're sounding a little snide about it. What's up with that?

Jim


      

DIGGIN'THE LIFE!
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goof
Digger
Digger


Joined: Jun-19-11
Posts: 22
Posted: Jun-26-11 at 1:22pm | IP Logged  

the shovel wrote:

Goof,You keep referring to the words of the Lord as if you really believe them

Particularly this in Rev 2:
"Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. "

No contempt Jim

Pure facts only.

      

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:23
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Dignz
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Posted: Jun-26-11 at 1:34pm | IP Logged  

it seems sad to me that you would think the miracles of God only and simply cry out 'reward for me, me, me'.  :(   that seems like a rather small regard for the eternal vastness of God and His nature and work/works.

personally, i believe miracles declare,  GOD GOD GOD, whether or not any particular miracle is ever bestowed upon 'me' at all. 

but whatever ... personal matter of the heart i suppose.

but that is a good question:  who are the overcomers?  at this particular time i am not reading revelation to find in context of the whole what that iparticular meaning is, but .... overall in the meantime ...

i believe the true overcomers are those who are found in Christ Jesus Himself.  greater is He Who is in them, than any efforts any person may or may not attempt to work themselves into becoming 'overcomers'.

who do you think the overcomers are?  what makes them overcomers?   what have they 'overcome'?  etc.




      

"afterall, he's not a tame lion"
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the shovel
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Posted: Jun-26-11 at 1:45pm | IP Logged  

So Goof, or should I say Rob, what are you really hoping to accomplish this time around under your new alias? Are you bored and lonely? Are you trolling for disciples? Or are you hoping to validate your version of the Lord?

Jim


      

DIGGIN'THE LIFE!
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Dignz
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Posted: Jun-26-11 at 1:47pm | IP Logged  

what made you go to revelation anyway?  are you playing compare games with us ... comparing us to the church at Ephesus and concluding and implying that we here have 'left our first love' or something? 

you seem to just be hopping and jumping all over the place.      i recognize that 'cuz i can hop quite a lot myself sometimes.   

what is it you mainly want to communicate here?  it seems like you want to communicate something in particular, but i am not quite getting it.

the 'church' leaves its first Love when its adopts and adapts back to the very Law it was divorced from and died to in Christ.  that was happening pretty quickly and early on with the early church was is not?  the same liar, same lies, same deceptions, same delusions, etc.


      

"afterall, he's not a tame lion"
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goof
Digger
Digger


Joined: Jun-19-11
Posts: 22
Posted: Jun-26-11 at 1:58pm | IP Logged  

Dignz wrote:
are you playing compare games with us ... comparing us to the church at Ephesus

Certainly not!
For, the Lord's own words, "... and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false...," would be in contradiction with your position concerning Paul.
____________

Well; as you must have noticed by now, I have this unfortunate habit to look for anything that can increase the Lord's welfare (I feel like such a viper when I hear myself say that.)
Anyway, if this was to be the ultimate goal in religion, as I believe it to be, then, things like "you have perseverance and have endured for My name’s sake, and have not grown weary"; things like that, would be a good starting point to understand what overcoming means (I mean; overcoming like in: the Lord did overcome the world.)


Edited by goof on Jun-26-11 at 2:28pm


      

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:23
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