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 Shovel Shack : Personal IC experiences
Subject Topic: Last day before the last day
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ohbear
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Joined: Jun-07-06
Location: United States
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Posted: Dec-03-07 at 10:20pm | IP Logged  

Hey guy's, I hope everyone is doing well.

Well, I posted for my first time a while back in the wrong forum I believe about my preacher coming to visit me and I just asked for your wisdom about the situation.  (thanks for the replies by the way) Well a couple of months have passed and I recently received a nasty gram from my church that I wish I could download for you to read but, I'll give you the short version.  It goes like this:  I'm saddened by the circumstances that necessitate this letter.../ for about a year you have neglected your vows to the Lord..../ Vows are serious, God says in Deut 23:21 If you make a vow to the Lord..../Since Gods word is our infallible and inerrant judge and authority it is obvious that you are in grievous sin.  Compounding this sin is the fact that you have ignored another vow to "submit yourselves to the government and discipline of the church (BCO 57-5)"/   We have lovingly tried to exhort and admonish you through calls, meetings ...../We beg you to repent of your sin and return..../In order to resolve this vital matter, we want you to come to our next session meeting to explain yourselves. Of course, repenting of this sin, by returning to church on a regular basis would make this meeting a happier occasion. Please do the right thing!  We love you.

Well I do plan to go to the session meeting tonight, I don't no why because  every time I open my mouth to speak I sound like a cave man on crack.  I guess thats my thorn in the booty.  I can collect my thoughts in my head but when I go to speak everything breaks down and makes no since at all.  My wife has to interpret for me all the time.  Anyhow if I can just muster up enough composure to stand up and say I'm a heretic and proud of it then I'll be proud of myself.

On a serious note though, before I go before the session,(some people I care about)and basically tell them I'm done here, I have one final question that I need someone to answer to remove  any  doubt that I might be making the wrong decision.  Since I’ve come to the shovel I've never felt better, so stinking FREE .  My question is, am I suppose to feel this way, and if this is what is right, if this is good, and what the lord intends for us, then why is it that it seems only us shovel meisters, out of all of the world are the only ones that get it and the whole I.C. is SO far off?  Please my brothers and sisters share your wisdom.

THANKS, Shannon


Edited by ohbear on Dec-04-07 at 10:26am
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ShannonC
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Joined: Jun-21-07
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Posted: Dec-04-07 at 10:24am | IP Logged  

I just typed a whole post and somehow lost it.  I will re-write it quickly.

Basically, the Shackesters are not the only ones who have found freedom in Christ or Christ to be their life (WORDS FAIL ME).  I first found (saw)  freedom from sin in Christ, grace in Christ, my life in Christ, etc. in the early 90s with a whole group of different folks.  I just found the Shack about a year or so ago (only started posting a few months ago).

I don't know why some people don't feel the way I feel.  I don't know why the law doesn't kill some people like it killed me.  I don't know why I would rather be labeled backslidden, heretic, whatever than to have someone try to put another foundation under me other than Christ or to try to present "another gospel" to me. Don't know.  All I know is that I trust Him fully.

Glad you are here.



      

ShannonC
HE IS SO GOOD!
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nyagali
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Posted: Dec-04-07 at 11:48am | IP Logged  

I just read your post about your organization (how can we even call that "church") and their reaction to you. They are in darkness, what else is there to say?  Once you are out, the Lord will lead you to His people. Just ask Him, follow in faith and life will change.

I hardly write on here but I agree with you that you experience fellowship and grace through those who also walk in the life of Christ. Shannon, you are so right that to present another gospel is a far worse place to be in in life.

Bless you!

Joy

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BobB
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Posted: Dec-04-07 at 1:59pm | IP Logged  

One of the great things about real freedom is that it truly relieves you from the crap people are thinking about you. Imagine being so uninvolved and unavailable to yourself that you have to tell others about their 'sins' and whether or not they belong in the club. They need a friekin LIFE.

Hang tuff and let no man take your crown.



Edited by BobB on Dec-04-07 at 2:05pm


      

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the shovel
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Posted: Dec-04-07 at 2:11pm | IP Logged  

ohbear wrote:

I have one final question that I need someone to answer to remove  any  doubt that I might be making the wrong decision.  Since I’ve come to the shovel I've never felt better, so stinking FREE .  My question is, am I suppose to feel this way, and if this is what is right, if this is good, and what the lord intends for us, then why is it that it seems only us shovel meisters, out of all of the world are the only ones that get it and the whole I.C. is SO far off?  Please my brothers and sisters share your wisdom.

THANKS, Shannon


Hello Shannon,

I can relate. On more than one occasion it has seemed to me that no one else understood, that no one else "gets it". No doubt in any given situation it may be that no one in a particular localized group does understand, but that doesn't mean there are not others just outside our scope who do. Sometimes it takes a situation like this to stimulate one or more in the very group where there seemed to be no life. I always kept in mind that there was another man many years ago who told God that he was all alone only to have God revealed to him that there indeed others. Things are often not what they appear. Just remember that Christ is sufficient for you.

Jim :)


      

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rickh
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Posted: Dec-04-07 at 4:20pm | IP Logged  

i used to think nobody else "got it" either and thought the four or five people in our little bible studies were the only ones in the world.

i now see the ones who i think "get it" may never utter Christs name and will never be found inside the walls of a so called church.  life, to me, comes in strange, suttle ways that i only see when im paying attention. then again, even when im not paying attention, "it" sometimes hits me in the head like a hammer. go figure.



      

rick
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ohbear
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Posted: Dec-08-07 at 12:15pm | IP Logged  

Thanks for your replies.  I just wanted to let you all know what happened at the session meeting.
 First, one guy clubbed me from behind out of nowhere, next thing I knew when I came to, I realized I was tied to a stake with a heap of wood beneath my feet, and the people were chanting in unison burn, burn, burn the heretic. 

 Well, it wasn't quite that rough.  They asked "What's going on here Shannon," and I said it was Jim's fault, he made me do it.  Seriously though, to make it short they asked what's going on,  and I tried to explain myself but, like I said, I suck at communication via the toungue, so in my mind I said,  (I found this site called the Shovel, with a lot of cool people and amazingly simple but, profound teaching that has radically changed my whole life.  I have never felt more free and alive and secure.    I am finally beginning to see what real life was meant to be like for those who are loved by God.....  But I ended up sounding like the Tasmanian Devil.  Typical. I hate my thorn.  But anyway, they said I was in deception, and they through some scriptures at me and said they loved me but, if I continued to neglect my vow to uphold  the body of the Church, that they would have no other choice but to remove me from the roll.  That's it basically.

Take care friends
Shannon
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rickh
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Posted: Dec-08-07 at 1:21pm | IP Logged  

itll probably be one of the best things thats ever happened to you, being removed from "your roll".  did Christ call for such rules?  congratulations. 

      

rick
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BobB
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Posted: Dec-08-07 at 1:22pm | IP Logged  

ohbear wrote:
 But anyway, they said I was in deception, and they through some scriptures at me and said they loved me but, if I continued to neglect my vow to uphold  the body of the Church, that they would have no other choice but to remove me from the roll.

Remove me from the roll?! Can I have that in writing?

 



      

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the shovel
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Posted: Dec-08-07 at 10:36pm | IP Logged  

Though we are morons to the world we are not so to God because his wisdom is in us.

Shannon, what if this "thorn" of yours is not something to be scorned but embraced? What if your tongue short-circuits because something within you knows that you cannot communicate true wisdom in a way that makes sense according to religious wisdom? Believe me, I know what it is to stutter and babble like an idiot in the attempt to get others to understand me. As some guy wrote a long time ago, "Count it all joy".


      

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luvin
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Posted: Dec-09-07 at 9:45am | IP Logged  

I really can relate to this.

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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ohbear
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Posted: Dec-09-07 at 10:18am | IP Logged  

rickh wrote:

i now see the ones who i think "get it" may never utter Christs name and will never be found inside the walls of a so called church.  life, to me, comes in strange, suttle ways that i only see when im paying attention. then again, even when im not paying attention, "it" sometimes hits me in the head like a hammer. go figure.



Rick, I don't know if this is a good thing but, your response gave me comfort.  When I first believed, I was on fire for the lord.  I really thought I had gone insane, and so did my family. (though they didn't say anything).  I had just gotten out of the USMC, so I went from being a foul mouth, immoral dirty rascal, to a upright, go tell it on the mountain kind of man. 

 I said all of that to say this.  Now a day's I hardly mention the name Christ unless I 'm trying to debate something with someone.   I had more to say but I have to go now.  Take care
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BobB
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Posted: Dec-09-07 at 11:01am | IP Logged  

ohbear wrote:
 

 When I first believed, I was on fire for the lord.  I really thought I had gone insane, and so did my family. (though they didn't say anything).  I had just gotten out of the USMC, so I went from being a foul mouth, immoral dirty rascal, to a upright, go tell it on the mountain kind of man.  

Funny how that works. I remember being on fire for God just like they wanted me to but I 'needed to tone it down'. Now I don't mention faith and they now think I've backslid!!! There is no point in trying to please man. He is never appeasable, and he always demands more sacrifice. Thank God for Christ!



      

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ohbear
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Posted: Dec-09-07 at 1:33pm | IP Logged  

Bob, I understand what your saying.  I quickly conformed to the church doctrines and the rulers of the church but, before I even stepped into a church building I had this fire within me.  I don't know how to explain it but, I was changed in a second, in the middle of a field on a job site I was on shortly after I got out of the corps.  Boom! one second dead to the things of God and the next overjoyed by the veils that were removed from my eyes.  What I'm saying is, I don't believe I started off trying to please man but, now I feel like I'm not pleasing anyone, God or man. Your thoughts Bro?


Edited by ohbear on Dec-09-07 at 1:38pm
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BobB
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Posted: Dec-09-07 at 3:49pm | IP Logged  

ohbear wrote:
 

 What I'm saying is, I don't believe I started off trying to please man but, now I feel like I'm not pleasing anyone, God or man. Your thoughts Bro?

 Only those who really understand the atonement are really capable of understanding that God is already pleased. The stumbling block is that it really requires no such effort from us at all, for Christ accomplished the 'all of it'. It's just unsearchable to us at this point, but we struggle to receive it's completeness in our lives, and we do receive glimpses into it's joy but often we feel unworthy of it's bounty and freedom. Often, our endless natterings and internal dialogues about Law and 'right and wrong' just add to the feeling of 'separation'.  When one receives completeness, he is then able to distribute 'it'.  The 'it' is just complete ACCEPTANCE towards all men as we are accepted of Christ. As for pleasing man, the self righteous ego and an identity found in a false christ,  is, in my opinion, banal or suicidal.



Edited by BobB on Dec-09-07 at 3:54pm


      

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Rest and Trust
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Posted: Dec-09-07 at 5:24pm | IP Logged  

ohbear wrote:
Thanks for your replies.  I just wanted to let you all know what happened at the session meeting.
 First, one guy clubbed me from behind out of nowhere, next thing I knew when I came to, I realized I was tied to a stake with a heap of wood beneath my feet, and the people were chanting in unison burn, burn, burn the heretic.
 
 
ohbear wrote:
But anyway, they said I was in deception, and they through some scriptures at me and said they loved me but, if I continued to neglect my vow to uphold  the body of the Church,

 If you don't do it who will? Oh Nooo... Hope those guys find someone "to uphold the body of Church" now that you are no longer available. YIKES!

 

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rickh
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Posted: Dec-09-07 at 7:08pm | IP Logged  

ohbear wrote:
rickh wrote:

i now see the ones who i think "get it" may never utter Christs name and will never be found inside the walls of a so called church.  life, to me, comes in strange, suttle ways that i only see when im paying attention. then again, even when im not paying attention, "it" sometimes hits me in the head like a hammer. go figure.



Rick, I don't know if this is a good thing but, your response gave me comfort.  When I first believed, I was on fire for the lord.  I really thought I had gone insane, and so did my family. (though they didn't say anything).  I had just gotten out of the USMC, so I went from being a foul mouth, immoral dirty rascal, to a upright, go tell it on the mountain kind of man. 

 I said all of that to say this.  Now a day's I hardly mention the name Christ unless I 'm trying to debate something with someone.   I had more to say but I have to go now.  Take care

im totally with you shannon. i went through a few periods of being "on fire for the lord" preaching and debating and arguing with whoever would listen. i have to tell you, looking back now, it was exhausting! not to mention i felt like some sort of bible thumping door to door salesman of religion. and dare i say it, but i was also feeling pretty self righteous about myself. man, did that hit a dead end wall. 

finally, i just stopped. stopped reading the bible. stopped preaching. stopped trying to understand other then the rest and relaxation i got at jims house many a night, just talking about whatever.

dont get me wrong, i still roller coaster. but now its up and down from doing or saying nothing to just getting sometimes frustrated with usually bogus questions that dont need answering. and i tell you, shannon, doing nothing seems far more real than trying to have a political, legally bound conversation with someone who's been trained to use "proper wording" and "verbalization". now, just shooting the shit (pardon my dirty rascal foul mouth  :), seems more real than any other phony, put on your best face conversation you can imagine.

ive never come to tears speaking with a religous zealot, but ive cried real tears of joy speaking with the average joe or jim and really have come to know, not all the time, the difference between real life and the stuff that man tries to force down your throat with fancy words, deception, and lies. :)

seriously, im ecstatic for you right now, and if you found comfort in my words, little ole me, imagine the possibilities.

oh yea, about the pleasing God part, didnt He say "this is my Son with who I am pleased"? How do you think He sees you if Jesus is in you?

p.s.s. and in my opinion, you will never, ever, ever,...... please man/flesh because it (natural mind, man, flesh)......is never satisfied because it doesnt know the completeness of Christ.  Last edit, i promise.



Edited by rickh on Dec-09-07 at 8:03pm


      

rick
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luvin
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Posted: Dec-09-07 at 10:02pm | IP Logged  

Bob,

Some really good thoughts, worth pondering more. So..I'll do that.



      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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ohbear
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Posted: Dec-09-07 at 10:12pm | IP Logged  

rickh wrote:



finally, i just stopped. stopped reading the bible. stopped preaching. stopped trying to understand other then the rest and relaxation i got at jims house many a night, just talking about whatever.



It sure would be nice to hang out with you guys once in a while.  Any shackoholics in Va.?  I'm thankful I have found you all even if I never do get to sit down and hang with you. 

One more thing on this topic and I'll let it go for now.  I said my church through some scriptures at me and they did but, one of the elders told me to go home and read 2nd Peter chapters 1&2.  Well, I did read it, again and again, and it alarmed me again and again.  I'm sure you guys have discussed these chapters before but, for my sake give me the most accurate explanation you can.  Since the very first time I read the proverb "A dog always returns to it's vomit,"  it has haunted me.  I know I'm supposed to make a file in my head of things to find out down the road but, for me, these words in Peter are hard to chew and impossible to swallow.  Break this down for me so I can rest.

Thanks again,
Shannon


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rickh
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Posted: Dec-10-07 at 8:09am | IP Logged  

My family and I are actually considering moving to VA.  Jim and I were discussing it as well. Where are you located?  My little sister lives in Pulaski.

I just read those chapters in 2 Peter. Sounded good to me.  But not in a religious condeming kind of way. 



      

rick
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luvin
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Posted: Dec-10-07 at 9:01am | IP Logged  

Shannon,

I used to be acared by those writting too. They are speaking of men returning to the law for there identity and right standing with God..that's my take.



      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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ohbear
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Posted: Dec-10-07 at 10:47am | IP Logged  

Hey Rick. I live in a place called Mechanicsville in Hanover County.  It's about 15 min east of Richmond.   Hanover has been named one of the top 50 or 100 (I can't remember which) places to live according to some popular mag. recently. The zip code is 23111 if are interested in any research.  I love old Virginia, it's got everything you need.  You get to experience I think, the perfect mixture of the seasons; beautiful mild spring, hot but not scorching summers, fall is just as pleasant as the spring and winter is cold enough to enjoy some snow but, not bitter cold.  Just as you start to get tired of it being to hot or to cold they rotate into fall or spring.  The only thing Virginia is lacking in my opinion is Shacksters.   I know Florida is stinking wonderful.  Me and the family are heading south to see Mickey again in Jan.  Do you guys live far off the yellow brick road to Disney.   It would be nice to stop and shake hands with you guys.  Anyway, If you ever are up this way, I have plenty of room for you and your family to stay and check things out.  It would be a pleasure.

Shannon
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rickh
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Posted: Dec-10-07 at 11:27am | IP Logged  

Jim and I were talking about the season change as well almost verbatim. Just get tired of one season and along comes the beautiful next one.  We are actually going to my sisters in pulaski, the western side of va., for christmas for about a week. I'm looking for a job in some kind of law enforcement/park ranger field. The smaller the town the better for me. Unfortunately the housing market is poor to sell our house right now but if I got a job, we'd put our house on the market anyway.

We are about 2 1/2 hours south, straight down the turnpike from disney. Jims in the same area about a 1/2 north of me.  Appreciate the offer and may take you up on that.  Your welcome to come here anytime as well if you can squeeze it in.

I grew up in Pennsylvania, and miss that kind of climate. Floridas turning into one long hot summer. Our winters are getting shorter if you can call dropping below 70 2 or 3 times, a winter. We'll stay in touch I'm sure. 



      

rick
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Dave S
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Posted: Dec-10-07 at 11:45am | IP Logged  

"A dog always returns to it's vomit," 

oh bear

It's really a matter of sustenance, a starving dog can get used to it's own vomit when the pack leader is telling it thats all there is.

Your hope is for the big juicy side of beef, which intuitively you know is "out there". The pack simply are content with meagreness and want you to return ( the bigger the pack, the safer it feels).

They are convinced that meagreness is better than nothing, nothing, to them is vomit.

Here, we simply testify of a far better food and point out the oasis from whence we receive it.

Nectar is calling you, nectar sustains. They say they give nectar, you, obviously remain unsatisfied. Therefore all there is, is a differing of opinions. You have absolutely no need to fear a difference of opinion. Cor, blimey, mate (limey expression ) you'll find that here!!

We know what we have lapped at, we know what we lap at now.

Eagles take the prey. 

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Isaac
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Posted: Dec-10-07 at 12:55pm | IP Logged  

Shannon,

If I can interject, this seems to be the context--returning to your former state.

2Pe 2:20 For if, after escaping the world's corruptions through a full knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled and conquered by them, then their last condition is worse than their former one.

Your church elder may see your disassociation with them as returning to that state you were in before Christ. SHould this be applied to you? God knows the reality of the situation--not the elder. They can't comprehend that you can live to Christ apart from the system. In reality we can be corrupted by the flesh THROUGH the church system as much as by the sin itself.

The main thing is that we are dead to the world and its darkness.



      

But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, having been hidden, which God predetermined before the ages for our glory. (1 Cor 2:7)

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the shovel
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Posted: Dec-10-07 at 1:34pm | IP Logged  

Good and living responses here, y'all. :)  Shannon, I had written part of something on that passage that you can read if you'd like. It's here.

      

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Rest and Trust
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Posted: Dec-10-07 at 4:05pm | IP Logged  

Dave S. wrote:
It's really a matter of sustenance, a starving dog can get used to it's own vomit when the pack leader is telling it thats all there is.

Luved this...

Isaac wrote:
They can't comprehend that you can live to Christ apart from the system. In reality we can be corrupted by the flesh THROUGH the church system as much as by the sin itself.

So true Isaac...

I would add to these comments by saying that often they simply totally replace the reality of the Spirit with the institution. The institution completely eclipses the Spirit to the point that it actually becomes impossible for them to see past the institution. There is nothing more to them. To abide in the Spirit to them is to abide in the functions, ceremonies, rituals and regulations of whatever institution that they are associated with. If you don't abide or adhere to any of these functions that is prescribed by their particular institution then it impossible, in their perception, to see that you could indeed be abiding in the Spirit. 

I know most of us have had these same mindsets to one degree or another. From having experienced the emptyness of that mindset myself it is a sad thing to see anyone in that self perpetuating trap.    

 

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ohbear
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Posted: Dec-10-07 at 10:55pm | IP Logged  

"Well, more for another time.  It's late.  Besides, you will no doubt have some questions and/or comments.  :)

Love,
Jim"



Jim, or anyone, I do have some questions.

"For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.  For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them."

But except for these few statements, the men Peter described were totally lacking the life of God.

Man, I really did try to take in what you had to say about this particular quote from Peter but, I'm not able to make it work for me.  I guess the big deal for me is (well there are a bunch of big deals for me) that this quote seems to paint a picture of me.  What are the defilements of the world?  I think I have an idea of what they are, and I believed I had escaped them at one time but, I do feel as though I am encompassed by these defilements to different degrees again.  The world does not hate me like it used to when I first believed, and that really disturbs me. 

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luvin
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Posted: Dec-11-07 at 2:09am | IP Logged  

we were taught the defilments were something different than worldly thoughts of slef riteousness and pride.

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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Connie
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Posted: Dec-11-07 at 10:14am | IP Logged  

ohbear wrote:


Man, I really did try to take in what you had to say about this particular quote from Peter but, I'm not able to make it work for me.  I guess the big deal for me is (well there are a bunch of big deals for me) that this quote seems to paint a picture of me.  What are the defilements of the world?  I think I have an idea of what they are, and I believed I had escaped them at one time but, I do feel as though I am encompassed by these defilements to different degrees again.  The world does not hate me like it used to when I first believed, and that really disturbs me. 

Shannon, 

What came to me when I read this part of your post, is that Jesus was hated, but it was by the Pharisees!!  So you might be in better company than you think. Like Adam pointed out, what exactly are defilements of the world?  Think about that subject again.



      

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My take is- there is no question that Peter is addressing what your average Joe would consider the defilements of the world to be. Where the IC's understanding of these passages takes a wrong turn (IMHO) is that they believe we fix this problem by trying to stop the flesh from performing, acting-out, joining-in the "defilements of the world". Peter was simply saying live from the new Nature that is given to you through Jesus Christ. Rest in that Nature. Know that that Nature is your reality. What the flesh does or doesn't do is no longer to be concerned with when you are resting in the new Nature. On the other hand- when someone continues to live from the old system or lives according to the Mosaic Law (right and wrong), the flesh will contnually live in the defilements of the world. The flesh will have no choice because the strength of sin or the defilements of the world is the law. Peter is simply pointing others to live from the new Nature and not be distracted by systems of observing and trying to do or not do, what is supposedly right and wrong that cause you to live according to or from the flesh. (This is an incredibly tough concept to grasp because it runs so contrary to the natural and/or religous mindset that we have all been immeresed in.) 

 

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Connie great highlight. The corrupted heart oif the pharisee was so evident and yet it wasn't seen by those that didn't expect it. Christ came and revealed the dead mans bones in there heart and all the corrupt selfish gain and such and it was for this that they tried killing him!

      

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Shannon,

I don't know that you should look for the world to hate you as a measure of your progress in Christ. John did not use it that way...

1Jo 3:13 Do not marvel, my brothers, IF the world hates you.

WHat does seem to matter is our own affection; not if we are hated by the world, but if we love the world.

1Jo 2:15 Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him, 16 because all that which is in the world: the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17 And the world is passing away, and its lust. But the one doing the will of God abides forever.

So where is the conviction coming from? Is it from human standards or is God's spirt working in you, independent of what this elder wanted you to conclude?

      

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ohbear wrote:

"For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.  For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them."

But except for these few statements, the men Peter described were totally lacking the life of God.

Man, I really did try to take in what you had to say about this particular quote from Peter but, I'm not able to make it work for me. I guess the big deal for me is (well there are a bunch of big deals for me) that this quote seems to paint a picture of me. What are the defilements of the world? I think I have an idea of what they are, and I believed I had escaped them at one time but, I do feel as though I am encompassed by these defilements to different degrees again. The world does not hate me like it used to when I first believed, and that really disturbs me.


My dear Shannon,

I think you're going to discover that you'll often run into problems when you try to make certain passages work for you. You see, somehow you don't connect until you get to this bit at the end of the matter, and then all of a sudden it all seems to apply to you. Somehow, in view of the whole chapter, these verses caught your attention, even though the whole section is dealing with the same matter.

There's a huge change between the contents (as well as in the manner of Peter's delivery) in chapter one and chapter two. In the first, he was referring to the believers themselves; in the second, he referred to the false prophets and false teachers. In the first he wrote to them about themselves: “I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling, to stir you up by way of reminder”; in the second he addressed a matter about others: “But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.” Everything in the first revolves around those who had received the same spirit as did the apostles, while everything in the second revolves around the false prophets.

“and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds), then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,” (2 Peter 2:7-9)

Consider how Peter brought this up the situation with Lot while warning the believers against false teachers. I have no doubt that Lot would have easily read himself into the same verses that now bother you. Peter does not suggest anything of the sort, for he calls Lot “godly” and “righteous”. Lot may have been oppressed by the evil of his day, but that was because he was righteous. God knows the difference.  Just because you feel the “torment” (the pains, the sorrow, the anger, etc) while living in this world don't jump across the uncrossable chasm and force yourself into the part where Peter described the false prophet and false teacher.

Quote:

But except for these few statements, the men Peter described were totally lacking the life of God.


I did not write the part you highlighted as a concession to some difficulty I had with the verses in question. It is, instead, the mask of the false prophet/teacher. Other than the professions and claims of such men there is no place for the life of God. This is the meaning of false prophet, for it is one who attempts to teach something he doesn't know or understand because it is not in his life. Peter brought this up because it is exactly what most people trip over. You know, it seems to make no difference that a teacher has no real freedom in his life if he knows how to talk a good talk or argue with the best of them.
Something else you might pay attention to in Peter's statement: “For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome”. “...and are overcome...” That's a far cry different from being “encompassed by these defilements to different degrees again”. What you see in yourself fits much better with the description of what Lot felt in his soul. It would seem that part of Peter's reason for using Lot as an example was that Lot was unnecessarily burdened by the world around him because he was so affected by their words.

Peter's message to his hearers was simple, for he told them that since they already knew where the life was found they should not pay any attention to those who so obviously don't know where it is.

Jim


      

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Posted: Dec-13-07 at 9:45am | IP Logged  

ohbear wrote:


"For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.  For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the ((((holy commandment)))) delivered to them."


Was just perusing this thread again, enjoying the sense of discussion in it.

The thought occurred to me, while reading your comment here Shannon- So often when we read phrases in the scriptures like: "Holy commandment", "Law of the Spirit", "Law written in your hearts and minds" there is tenedency to automatically view them as refering to the Mosaic law. Its almost as if the proverbial "little devil on the shoulder" whispers in our ear, whenever we read  these types of statements that it is in reference to the Mosaic law. The fact is that these types of statments in the scriptures refer to direction given from the Spirit in many ways. In the reality found inside the Spirit of Christ, direction flows from the Spirit into the mind and emotions moment by moment.  

 

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the shovel
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joe wrote:
The fact is that these types of statments in the scriptures refer to direction given from the Spirit in many ways.


Yes. The same applies to the command Jesus spoke to his disciples: Love one another, even as I have loved you. This was not a command of law nor a principle to follow. It is as high above the Law as the heaven is above the earth, as east is from west.

Jim :)


      

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luvin
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twas to be in our DNA.

      

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Jim wrote:

joe wrote:
The fact is that these types of statments in the scriptures refer to direction given from the Spirit in many ways.



Yes. The same applies to the command Jesus spoke to his disciples: Love one another, even as I have loved you. This was not a command of law nor a principle to follow. It is as high above the Law as the heaven is above the earth, as east is from west.

Jim :)

I sense that understanding this is key in knowing what Jesus means by "Love one another as I have loved you". We love each other by the reality of who we are in the Spirit, being who we are to each other. Shannon commented along the lines- often we will take some heat (so to speak) for living the reality of who we are in the Spirit. There is often no way around taking heat for being who we are in Christ. The spirit of the world opposes and is hostile to the Spirit of Christ. The world being hostile towards a person because they are in the Spirit of Christ is not necessarily a gauge to be used. Opposition and hostility from the spirit of this world is a result that often happens towards the Spirit of Christ and it is nice to be aware that it does. Should we gauge who we are by the level of opposition we receive from the spirit of the world? I like to believe that we simply know who we are by the reality that we are in union with the Spirit through Jesus Christ. 

 

Thoughts...     



Edited by Rest and Trust on Dec-17-07 at 10:43am
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the shovel
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Good thoughts, Joe,

It seems once we begin using any aspect of our life in Christ as a gauge we will soon see something other than Christ. And one of  the tricky things about the hostility of the world is that it can be easily disguised by masks. We might also be listening to the voice of condemnation that tells us that we shouldn't be able to get along with "evil" people of the world. But when I remember where I learned that kind of judgment from I quickly realize that I have mistaken some definite hostility as being "Christian" care or discernment.

Jim


      

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the shovel wrote:
Good thoughts, Joe,

It seems once we begin using any aspect of our life in Christ as a gauge we will soon see something other than Christ. And one of  the tricky things about the hostility of the world is that it can be easily disguised by masks.

If you get a chance, would enjoy hearing examples of this type of thing that you have encountered.

Jim wrote:
 We might also be listening to the voice of condemnation that tells us that we shouldn't be able to get along with "evil" people of the world.

In my experience/journey that was one of the first key revelations for me to learn. Condemnation (other than towards what was crucified before the foundations of the world) will inevitably distract from our mind and emotions ability to sense and/or be aware of the Spirit of Christ. (Or the actual being that we are- in union with the Spirit of Christ.)  

Jim wrote:
But when I remember where I learned that kind of judgment from I quickly realize that I have mistaken some definite hostility as being "Christian" care or discernment.

Jim

I tend to see every area and/or aspect of society as being entirely saturated with the mentality that judges and reacts according to condemnation, guilt and shame. So to some degree an analyzation (if you will) of the opposition of the two mentalities must occur in order to identify thoughts that flow from the Spirit of Christ (or the mind of Christ). Without this operating in my experience/journey I tend to default to a type of auto pilot that relies solely on the traditions of men, too.     

I like how Paul relayed this type of thing to the Galatians- "Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now."

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Jim wrote:
But when I remember where I learned that kind of judgment from I quickly realize that I have mistaken some definite hostility as being "Christian" care or discernment.

and it's wonderful to see it lift from us and others as we come into this knowledge. I remember once thinking, "It is finished, so now I can quit talking about it to everyone". One of the reasons I say very little about any spirituality anymore is because of that hostility that we so often see drip from there body language and postering. I see the great desire and a million reasons to preach the 'good news', but very few really care. It used to upset me but not so much anymore. I'm learning to chill. It's still my good news.



      

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luvin
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I haven't thought it out that far. I personlly still subcribe to the idea that if God is able to arrange it , then at some point Im very able to witness it, or even simply just observe it. Maybye even take part in it..sometimes our imiginations are bigger than our stomaches..meaning we often think of the set up and how it sopposed to go down, and in actuality the word goes out without our even probably knowing it.

      

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maybe my point is that when we speak of christ, often, the listeners feel condemnation not understanding what their hearing. I'm with you on the 'observing', because it means being sensitive to whats going on, and being in process of awakening.

      

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the shovel
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Rest and Trust wrote:

the shovel wrote:
Good thoughts, Joe,

It seems once we begin using any aspect of our life in Christ as a gauge we will soon see something other than Christ. And one of  the tricky things about the hostility of the world is that it can be easily disguised by masks.

If you get a chance, would enjoy hearing examples of this type of thing that you have encountered.

Hello Joe,

In direct relation to what Shannon posted, the hostility factor is a great example. I learned the verses that spoke about this hostility while in Bible college, and I even had sensed it from time to time. And just as Shannon has wondered why he no longer feels the hostility as he once did, so did I. But then again, I discovered that by repeating what I remembered of certain past experiences I could sometimes "prompt" hostility from people. It's not that I was hoping for the hostility end of the spectrum, but I think hearing a definite rejection of Christ helped soothe my own sense of insecurity. I mean, if I could believe that people were only rejecting Christ then they might not have been rejecting ME. Now in saying all this, I'm not suggesting that the hostility between the flesh and the spirit is imaginary, because it's very real. It's just that sometimes people were hostile toward me because I was being a religious ass.

Jim




      

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ShannonC
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It's just that sometimes people were hostile toward me because I was being a religious ass.

Jim


[/QUOTE] !!!

That is so relatable!!! I have been that ass and not the one that spoke in the Old Testament....hehehe!! I needed that laugh today.



      

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the shovel wrote:
Rest and Trust wrote:

the shovel wrote:
Good thoughts, Joe,

It seems once we begin using any aspect of our life in Christ as a gauge we will soon see something other than Christ. And one of  the tricky things about the hostility of the world is that it can be easily disguised by masks.

If you get a chance, would enjoy hearing examples of this type of thing that you have encountered.

Hello Joe,

In direct relation to what Shannon posted, the hostility factor is a great example. I learned the verses that spoke about this hostility while in Bible college, and I even had sensed it from time to time. And just as Shannon has wondered why he no longer feels the hostility as he once did, so did I. But then again, I discovered that by repeating what I remembered of certain past experiences I could sometimes "prompt" hostility from people. It's not that I was hoping for the hostility end of the spectrum, but I think hearing a definite rejection of Christ helped soothe my own sense of insecurity. I mean, if I could believe that people were only rejecting Christ then they might not have been rejecting ME. Now in saying all this, I'm not suggesting that the hostility between the flesh and the spirit is imaginary, because it's very real. It's just that sometimes people were hostile toward me because I was being a religious ass.

Jim


 

Have had similar experiences my self- Right after I was first born again I was living in Salt Lake City. There in the Mormon capital of the world I bought into the trip that Mormons needed to have their demonic religous doctrines exposed in hopes that they would see the light and be saved. I remember buying books written by Walter Martin and others that exposed the evil mormon doctrines. Needless to say, those endeavers were met with a little hosility here and there. Yeah, I learned the hard way too, that "being a religous ass" towards others will usually be met with hostility.  

At some point years later, I came to believe that it was better to simply speak of Jesus Christ with mormons if the opportunity presented itself. Only rarely did things get outta hand using this technique. I must admit, I don't even think of that technique any more, I simply just relate to those I encounter from who I am in Christ. Kinda like what Peter (the guy who used to post here now and then) said- "its all his gig". Reactions from others towards us as we live from the reality of who we are in Christ is not our reponsibility.   

Anyway, If you get a chance, I was curious to hear about experiences that lead you to a greater understanding of how the world uses disguises to mask its hostility towards the Spirit of Christ.    



Edited by Rest and Trust on Dec-21-07 at 8:04pm
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luvin
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Great thoughts Jim

      

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Joe wrote:

Anyway, If you get a chance, I was curious to hear about experiences that lead you to a greater understanding of how the world uses disguises to mask its hostility towards the Spirit of Christ.


I am aware that the experiences are countless, but in view of your request I am unable to remember but one or two. I'll share the most prominent, as it was a real eye opener for me.

Back in the early-mid 80s, a woman from either the church or Bible study introduced me to her boyfriend (I think). Anyhow, I do remember that she saw him as having some great spiritual insight, and that was how she presented him to me (I think she may have been trying to get my approval). She brings him over to the house and we start talking. I don't remember a lot of what he told me, but he was quite expressive and vibrant in the process. He made numerous references to God having opened his eyes to ... something. He said it brought him freedom.

Did you ever watch the Arthur C Clarke movie, 2010, where the missing astronaut (Bowman) from 2001 came back as a apparition with news about what was to come? When asked what that was he expressed an excited, "Something wonderful!" He was excited about the freedom that God opened his eyes to, and he wanted others to know about it. For me at that time, I had been made aware that God worked outside the boundaries of my own experiences and perceptions, and I was just waiting to hear that he had come to know Christ. He claimed to have been shown this freedom by the power of the God's word. I would ask him questions prompted by what he said. I thought he may have been unable to express a real miraculous encounter with the true God. But the more he strove to keep me in suspense of this freedom - this "something wonderful" - I became rather suspicious. He really didn't want to tell me what I was asking, but had something other in mind.

I finally learned what he meant by "the power of God's word". Somebody gave him a Bible (a rather large and old one, if I remember correctly) and he brought it into his house. Okay, fine ... I went with that. When I asked him what it was that he read from it that brought him this sense of freedom he admitted that he hadn't read it ... it was just the presence of the book in his house that helped to opened his eyes. I remember suggesting that if the mere presence of the book in his house had helped him he might discover that reading it would even be better. :)

Now during the course of his dialogue he had (with great reverence) mentioned a particular evening where he really learned of the freedom God brought him, and that seems to be the direction he was leading me to. When he finally told me what this freedom was I was left speechless. Someone had sold him on one of those multi-level marketing businesses!

Now as to my understanding of the masking of hostility I'll provide a bit of background on what I was seeing. At the time, I was very interested in studying 1st John (the letter). I had known that John referred to some who could hear and understand ... and some who couldn't. What I was realizing was that the reason so many were deceived by those who couldn't see, hear or understand God was that they were very good at talking as if they knew something more ... something better. It was all about manipulation, especially with words. During the course of our discussion it was like a light came on. It was alive! And it caused me to realize that the very thing John wrote about was happening right before my eyes. The hostility John had written about wasn't doctrinal ... it was real.

When I mentioned my growing suspicion of what this guy was telling me it had to do with his reactions to some of what I was asking him. As he alluded to freedom, I responded with some of my own excitement of the freedom I've found in Christ; as he spoke of the power of the word, I made small comments about my own realization of the real power of God's word. Like I said, as the discussion went on his evasiveness become more obvious. His reactions were subtle but quite telling. His eyes revealed that he not only did not understand what I was saying or asking him, but that he was hiding something. They were cold to any mention of the freedom found in Christ. His words kept saying "freedom", "God", "God's word", "power of God", etc ... and yet everything else about him belied the claims he made. His God was a business venture, though had I not asked him about what he had been claiming I doubt he would have revealed as much as he did in an attempt to sell me on it.

Jim


Edited by the shovel on Dec-22-07 at 7:26am


      

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Great story!

The "multi level marketing schemer"- no IC is complete without one or two of em.

 

 



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the shovel
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Joe,

The fact is that I was near the end of my own stint as a multi-level marketer. I had entered in because of my mom and dad, who were trying to build a business. They had done so-so ... although they had achieved their monthly allowance for a decent car for a year or two as well as some vacations. We were already using many of the company's health and personal care products, and so I decided to give it a go for a while. Though I had done fairly well for a short while - and I even attracted the attention of a couple quite successful folks above our "line" who loved my enthusiasm and understanding of both product and business - I was nevertheless doomed to failure. Why? Because I couldn't buy into one of the basic premises of the marketing plan: you must build your friendship base around those who were part of your business. 

As you mentioned, there were always one or two "multi level marketing schemers" around most churches ... and in our south Florida area there were usually many more than two! I just couldn't succeed when I refused to hang around only those who wanted to build a successful business. Also, I wouldn't go to war with those who would "steal my people". Anybody who really knows me also knows that if there is a gathering of believers I will eventually end up talking about the source of our life rather than the particulars of business.

And I don't say any of this to discourage others from giving it a shot. Some can do it despite the obstacles, I just couldn't. :)

Jim


      

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