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Biblical Interpretation
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Subject Topic: Do we allow choice?
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Rest and Trust
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Posted: Jan-18-07 at 11:34am | IP Logged  

Connie wrote:

 

Hey Joe, You said:

There was a time in my life that I knew that I needed to abandong all the logic I had accumulated up-til then. I would have never believed that such freedom was possible as the freedom that resulted in the abandon of the old.

I hope you enjoy the ride.   

 

And I don't know if you meant exactly this but this is what I got out of it: The greatest and purest of freedom was when we actually came to the point of and then actually "chose" Christ.  Until that point we had no idea what we were missing, only knew that we missed something.  To be able to even think there was an alternative to the deathly living we were in would be the life and freedom having its way in us and then stepping us on over into His realm.  After that monumental experience, freedom would reign because it was the cause of the point of entering in.   (If that made sense)

In other words I was given freedom to call my dead life a dead life.  (how's that for an oxymoron?) But you know, in retrospect, I couldn't even do that, He had to get me through it and see it the truth of it all later.

Yeah, what she said.  

When we come out of the other side of those oxymoron, dichotomy thingys in this life there is such incredibly rich freedom found.

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Joyce
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Joe,

Thanks for your comment to me.  I have heard differing things about this.  I know you are right about it not being the same for Eve as it was for Adam, so glad you pointed that out.  (I keep forgetting it's usually the man's fault.  )  

But back to the "free will" thing.  If he had freedom to choose, then that means then that he had "free will", right?  Thanks.  I need to know this as maybe I have been insinuating the wrong thing to others.   Thanks.

Joyce

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Chickenlips
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I always have to ask this question... if man is not free to choose, then what is the point of belief?  "Though not seeing, they still believe..."  If we have no choice but to believe, then the whole thing in my mind would be nothing more than spiritual semantics.  I think the greatest glory for God is found in man being totally free -- free to receive His love, or reject it as it were.  Free to accept or reject God Himself.  In fact, faith really is the ability that God gives to man to receive the things of God.  

I like 1 Cor 4:7 -- "What do you have that you have not received, and if you have indeed recieved it, then what to you have to boast in?"

"Faith comes by hearing..."   An ear does not create sound, it receives it.  So does faith.  For too long I tried to live by a faith that generated the work of God.  Because of an allergy, my ears will ring loudly -- I drives me as crazy as my ear generates sound of its own.  Ears are not created  for that purpose and neither is faith.  Both ears and faith are RECEPTORS.

It is all about the pleasure of God, and the thrill He gets out of free moral beings turning to Him, receiving what He has to give, and responding to Him.  In fact, I think this is the exact picture that human sexuality portrays.  By design men are created to initiate, and pursue, while women are created to receive and respond.  The greatest pleasure for a man is to see the pleasure of His beloved one.  If the woman had no choice, if she were simply a sexual slave there to be controlled and dominated by the man, if she had no choice but to receive her husband, then there is no real pleasure for either one.  In fact, she will become resentful and bitter.  Her ebody might show up for the act, but her mind and emotions are far removed.  (This is often the result of what is taught in the church about sex.)  It is a perversion of God's intent.  So it is with God and His bride -- US!  he desires us to be active participants, willing and eager so to speak.  He does not have any desire to rape pr force us to Himself.  He is patient, gentle, loving and kind.  Does not seek His own way.  Bears all things, beleives all things, endures all things.  He is faithful and true.

Freedom is exactly that.  Freedom with no strings attached, expecting nothing in return. that freedom makes me WANT to return and serve and love.  It's His kindness, love and grace that draw me back EVERY time.






Edited by Chickenlips on Jan-18-07 at 1:23pm


      

Mike

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Rest and Trust
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Joyce wrote:
(I keep forgetting it's usually the man's fault. 

Even as I wrote I knew I was opening myself up for that one.  

 

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Rest and Trust
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Posted: Jan-18-07 at 2:29pm | IP Logged  

Joyce, I know that I hold onto many of the understandings that I have come to with a great deal of confidence. But I hope that my confidence, in the things that I believe that I have received, is not mistaken for me trying to push my own point of view. The Spirit is the only teacher that I believe anyone should receive from. 

  



Edited by Rest and Trust on Jan-18-07 at 2:30pm
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Joyce
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Really glad for you guys taking the time to talk about this.  For some reason it is almost seeming to be both to me, but not sure I can explain it.  That is so true, Mike, about what you are saying with regard to the male/female relationship.  Wonder if it isn't that God's Love is so awesome, that for those who have had that revealed to them.... they can do nothing other than respond in a receiving way. And maybe those who haven't responded yet, maybe haven't had that full revelation yet.  Just what comes to mind right now.... 

Joyce



Edited by Joyce on Jan-18-07 at 3:45pm
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the shovel
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Chickenlips wrote:
I always have to ask this question... if man is not free to choose, then what is the point of belief?  "Though not seeing, they still believe..."  If we have no choice but to believe, then the whole thing in my mind would be nothing more than spiritual semantics.  I think the greatest glory for God is found in man being totally free -- free to receive His love, or reject it as it were.  Free to accept or reject God Himself.  In fact, faith really is the ability that God gives to man to receive the things of God.


Hi Mike! :)

This is pretty much how I used to see it, and I still have to admit that logically it makes a lot of sense. It's also only through such reasoning that faith seems to be spiritual semantics. I don't think belief has a point. It is what it is, and it is a testimony to the miraculous working of God in us. None have truly sought after God, and the fact that you and I have has to say something about something HE has done and not us. If we ask why we believe while others don't and we come up with any other reason than the grace of God we'll only end up testifying to man.

Chickenlips wrote:
I like 1 Cor 4:7 -- "What do you have that you have not received, and if you have indeed recieved it, then what to you have to boast in?"


I like this statement, too. It's a very sobering question that's based upon the miraculous life we have miraculously received.

Chickenlips wrote:
"Faith comes by hearing..."   An ear does not create sound, it receives it.  So does faith.  For too long I tried to live by a faith that generated the work of God.  Because of an allergy, my ears will ring loudly -- I drives me as crazy as my ear generates sound of its own.  Ears are not created  for that purpose and neither is faith.  Both ears and faith are RECEPTORS.


Yeah, me too. My ears ring all the time and the ringing just got louder this past fall after I was recovering from illness. I wish I could just hear nothing when it's quiet. I guess I played too much loud rock music in the band and put my head too close to the speakers. Then again, my dad didn't listen to loud music and his ears rang all the time too when he was older.

"He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."
"Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."

The hearing itself is miraculous for it designates that we are of God. No doubt it can be said that we chose him, but that is only looking at it pragmatically. Jesus said that his sheep hears his voice and they followed him. Just notice the lack of wording on John's part indicating that faith somehow boiled down to some kind of choice. Actually, John says differently:

"He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

This is totally miraculous. Whatever this believing and receiving is it has nothing to do with the will of the flesh or of the will of man. Also, notice how it says that no one received him, and then John writes, "But as many as received him". John presents this apparent contradiction again:

"What He has seen and heard, of that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony. He who has received His testimony has set his seal to this, that God is true."

If no one receives his testimony, then how can their be those who have received his testimony? He slaps them right together to express the miraculousness of the whole thing.


Chickenlips wrote:
It is all about the pleasure of God, and the thrill He gets out of free moral beings turning to Him, receiving what He has to give, and responding to Him.  So it is with God and His bride -- US!  he desires us to be active participants, willing and eager so to speak.  He does not have any desire to rape or force us to Himself.  He is patient, gentle, loving and kind.  Does not seek His own way.  Bears all things, beleives all things, endures all things.  He is faithful and true. Freedom is exactly that.  Freedom with no strings attached, expecting nothing in return. that freedom makes me WANT to return and serve and love.  It's His kindness, love and grace that draw me back EVERY time.


I'm not sure where you get this idea of "the thrill He gets out of free moral beings turning to Him" when the free moral beings all rejected him. And the objection that anything other than man being able to make the choice would result in rape is only man's reasoning, not God's. Me thinks we confuse him with what we have known of the flesh.

Jim :)


      

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Dave S
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Posted: Jan-18-07 at 6:02pm | IP Logged  

Amen Jim

There is no logic to a willingness in the day of His power.

There is no logic in the day of His power.

But, in His power and the miracle of it, the quality of willingness was upon us and unto us.

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luvin
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Posted: Jan-18-07 at 6:33pm | IP Logged  

But, in His power and the miracle of it, the quality of willingness was upon us and unto us.

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Good stuff Dave..

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

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graceman
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Posted: Jan-18-07 at 6:36pm | IP Logged  

Mike-

How did the Apostle Paul exercise his free will in response to God on the road to Damascus?  Would you say that God 'forced Himself upon Paul'?...I know I would.  Paul also said that he was a pattern (or example) of the salvation to come.  Hmmmm...

Oh...one other thought.  Jesus said when He was lifted up He would draw ALL men unto Himself.  The Greek word that is rendered 'draw', really carries the idea of 'to drag'...as someone against their will.  I know..."God is a gentleman" and all.  Just don't see it that way anymore...must be my age.

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luvin
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 Looks like this will be an A.F.G.O...[Another Flippin Growth Opportunity]

Edited by luvin on Jan-18-07 at 7:03pm


      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

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Chickenlips
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graceman wrote:

Mike-

How did the Apostle Paul exercise his free will in response to God on the road to Damascus?  Would you say that God 'forced Himself upon Paul'?...I know I would.  Paul also said that he was a pattern (or example) of the salvation to come.  Hmmmm...

Oh...one other thought.  Jesus said when He was lifted up He would draw ALL men unto Himself.  The Greek word that is rendered 'draw', really carries the idea of 'to drag'...as someone against their will.  I know..."God is a gentleman" and all.  Just don't see it that way anymore...must be my age.

I can understand Pauls experience as I have lived something similar.  Somehow I knew in the midst of God bringng me to my knees that I had to make a choice, and it was not an easy choice. Yet I knew it was the choice I was created to make.  The moment of confrontation came, and resulted in MONTHS of wresting until my eyes were opened too.  It;s hard to explain unless you have lived it. It was a very sobering season in my past that changed my life.  It's nothing that I can boast it, and I rarely talk about it.  It just "was" and is. 

It almost appears that this is turning into a free will vs predestination debate so let me say that is a pointless debate because neither side will fully draw our attention to Jesus.   I believe in both just as equally.  I am talking about practical expereince.  Like I said earlier, I don;t know if I have free will or not, but God humors and lets me at least think I do!  :D  But I also believe just as fully in predestination, being chosen, etc.  So try to figure that  out!      I undestand it to a point, but I sure can't explain it! All I know is in Him it is YES!  



Edited by Chickenlips on Jan-18-07 at 11:06pm


      

Mike

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Chickenlips
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Jim wrote:
I'm not sure where you get this idea of "the thrill He gets out of free moral beings turning to Him" when the free moral beings all rejected him. And the objection that anything other than man being able to make the choice would result in rape is only man's reasoning, not God's. Me thinks we confuse him with what we have known of the flesh.

Jim :)

I was recently doing a word study on the phrase "The Pleasure of God."  Wow!  It was awesome, and precludes many of the ideas I have written.  I was also thinking of Pauls writing about marriage being a picture of Christ and the church.  Sex is not of the flesh, it is an expression of spiritual reality.  Everything preaches Christ. 

One thing I have seen -- Everything in this life preaches Christ if we have the eyes to see and the ears to hear.  But any true-ism can become an end in itself and become a distraction from Christ.  Understand that I have worked with countless believers who truly believe God is forcing Himself on them.  But any illustration will fall short.  A singular truth can NEVER become the entire Truth, unless that singular Truth is Jesus Christ.  The moment a singular truth leads us away from Him it is no longer a truth but rather an untruth.  Therfore, not everything that is true is Truth.  Deception is made up of true things, but they lead our attention AWAY from Christ.  I love anything that leads us to seeing Him, I hate anything that distracts from seeing Him clearly. 



Edited by Chickenlips on Jan-18-07 at 11:18pm


      

Mike

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graceman
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Posted: Jan-19-07 at 12:40pm | IP Logged  

Mike...thanks for your thoughtful reply.

In considering the love of God and how it may 'behave', I enjoyed an article by John Gavazzoni ('Serious Seminal Samplings') entitled 'The Cup of God's Wrath'...I know, some title huh?  but its really insightful concerning His Love.  Wanting to share all good things.

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the shovel
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Hi Mike,

I wasn't referring to your illustration of sexual union in my comment, "
Me thinks we confuse him with what we have known of the flesh." In fact, I have no problem at all with the relating of the two. It instead has to do with those same kind of beliefs we held about being free when we were in bondage to sin and death.

Jim

Chickenlips wrote:

Jim wrote:
I'm not sure where you get this idea of "the thrill He gets out of free moral beings turning to Him" when the free moral beings all rejected him. And the objection that anything other than man being able to make the choice would result in rape is only man's reasoning, not God's. Me thinks we confuse him with what we have known of the flesh.

Jim :)

I was recently doing a word study on the phrase "The Pleasure of God."  Wow!  It was awesome, and precludes many of the ideas I have written.  I was also thinking of Pauls writing about marriage being a picture of Christ and the church.  Sex is not of the flesh, it is an expression of spiritual reality.  Everything preaches Christ. 

One thing I have seen -- Everything in this life preaches Christ if we have the eyes to see and the ears to hear.  But any true-ism can become an end in itself and become a distraction from Christ.  Understand that I have worked with countless believers who truly believe God is forcing Himself on them.  But any illustration will fall short.  A singular truth can NEVER become the entire Truth, unless that singular Truth is Jesus Christ.  The moment a singular truth leads us away from Him it is no longer a truth but rather an untruth.  Therfore, not everything that is true is Truth.  Deception is made up of true things, but they lead our attention AWAY from Christ.  I love anything that leads us to seeing Him, I hate anything that distracts from seeing Him clearly. 



      

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Tommy Gregg
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Chickenlips wrote:
It's His kindness, love and grace that draw me back EVERY time.


Hi Mike, I have been thinking a lot about this. I am beginning to see truth that is life to me when Corinthians says, "The love OF Christ compels me..." When I did not know I am one with Christ, I read this verse to mean, "Christ's love FOR me compels me to do things out of gratitude to Him." And "Christ's love FOR me draws me back to Him." However, there is no life in that. And even a focus on "His love TO me" can tempt me to be deceived in seeing me as being separate from Him.

His love FOR me and TO me are indeed most wonderful...but only in the context of His love IN me. The heart of Christ beats deep within me...the source of who I am. What a joy to grow in living out of that heart of love! What a joy to be surprised by grace in seeing that is my true heart...the very heart of Christ.

Christ IS my life. It is Christ who compels me! It is His love from His life in me that compels me! To say His love draws me back now that I'm a Christian tempts me personally to focus on separation. How did I get separated from Him so that I need to be drawn back? He last drew me to the cross with Him...and now I am risen to a new life IN Him, never ever to be separated from the love of God in Christ!

I more and more find my focus (my yearning) on His love from His life in me...which reveals the joy and reality (and love!)of being one with Him.

Blessings!




      

God called me through His grace for only one reason: to reveal His Son in me (Galatians 1:15-16).
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luvin
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Tommy Gregg..your post was LIFE to me!

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

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the shovel
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Indeed! :)

      

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luvin
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...and now I am risen to a new life IN Him, never ever to be separated from the love of God in Christ!

I more and more find my focus (my yearning) on His love from His life in me...which reveals the joy and reality (and love!)of being one with Him. -Tommy Gregg

 

Tommy this is one of the MOST profoundly discovered truths that I can think of.I too have been coming to this understanding as of late and love what you wrote here!



      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

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mary
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Post Deleted.


Edited by mary on Jan-20-07 at 10:29am


      

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Chickenlips
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Gregg,

What I was saying was, It's His kindness, love and grace that draw me back  -- into the awareness of HIS reality -- EVERY time.  Sorry what I wrote was misleading, I get focused on a greater truth sometimes and don't pay attention to the ways I say things.  Understand that i am ALWAYS writing from the persective that I am IN Him and He is IN me.  I cannot get any closer to God than I am this moment.  I cannot be seperated from Him... Nothing can seperate me from the Love of God that is found in Christ. 

 

 



Edited by Chickenlips on Jan-20-07 at 11:27pm


      

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Tommy Gregg
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Chickenlips wrote:
It's His kindness, love and grace that draw me back -- into the awareness of HIS reality.


Mike, thank you so much for this! When I read your previous quote out of context, it just reminded of the deception that many of us Christians fall for...needing to get back to God...needing to be drawn back to God...being a person separate from God.

God does lovingly draw us back into the awareness (the truth) of His reality. And that truth includes the truth that I am one with Him in Christ (as you noted)! Christ is real. Christ is reality. And this reality is not separate from me. Wow.

Christ is the only genuine Person. While He walked this earth, I understand Isaiah to say that he had average appearance...but he was supernaturally genuine. People were drawn to His real life. And because of the truth of the cross and resurrection, He is revealing to me that for the first time in my awkward life, I, too, am genuine! I don't feel this way much of the time still. But it's true. I am finally free...in Christ. His loving Spirit bears witness with my spirit that God is real AND that I'm His precious child (Romans 8:17).

Blessings brother Mike!


      

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graceman
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Wow...Tommy, thanks for the hearfelt testimony of God's life in you!
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Great discussion all.

I have come to conclude that choice and chosen are such deficient words when it comes to the life that God Brings.  It seems that salvation comes more like a song that God constantly sings to us and when we hear it we come alive from the dead.  Reminds me of being in the mountains with friends, the breeze is always blowing and some hear it while others don't.

God, Satan and ourselves seem to play some role in our ability to hear but I have never been able to fully concieve this whole picture in my mind. 

I am however coming to believe that Satan plays a bigger role to inhibit from hearing the song of life.

Here are a few passages that I think describe this;

Matthew 13:10-16

10 The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?" 11 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. 15 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' 16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.

Lu 8:12 -

Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

 

Ephesians 4:17-32

17 So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.

 

I find it very enlightening that Christ first had to blind Paul so that he could truly see.

 

Buddy

 

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Buddy,
WOnderful thoughts-- LIFE to me!  AMEN  !


      

Mike

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Joyce
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In thinking this over, it just kind of seems to me that if...  "greater is He that is in us than he that is in the world", and if it is God that hardens hearts, then our "seeing" or "hearing" would rest ultimately on God's shoulders.

Just my thinking at this time...  (who knows what tomorrow will bring) 

Joyce



Edited by Joyce on Jan-23-07 at 8:35am
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graceman
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Buddy...its a good thing that the devil is still God's devil, isn't it?
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Buddy
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Posted: Jan-23-07 at 3:30pm | IP Logged  

Graceman,

If you mean that he was created by God just as mankind was I would agree.  Belonging to God is another story.  Just as some men are in Christ, I think that Christ made it clear that some angels are in and some are out. 

Buddy

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graceman
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Posted: Jan-24-07 at 12:39pm | IP Logged  

My point is that God created the devil to play a part in HIS redemptive plan for mankind.  Many believe that the devil is God's formidable rival.  THEY ARE IN A BATTLE FOR SOULS!

If that's the case...Jesus is REALLY GETTING WHIPPED!  The Savior of the World (as identified by John) has fallen well short of His announced goals...one main objective to be to DESTROY THE WORKS OF THE DEVIL!  (spoken in the book of Hebrews)

What would you say the percentage of 'saved' mankind is? (as defined by the Christian religion)  My guess would be like...maybe, 10 or 15%?

Somehow I would expect a little more from Him who is LOVE....being that 'LOVE NEVER FAILS'.

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luvin
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Posted: Jan-24-07 at 12:54pm | IP Logged  

If I may chime in...

Doesn't it really depend on how you choose to define Jesus' stated goals/and or the Devils?I mean what are the works of the Devil anyway?[just thinking it through..dont really know if totally know]I mean can the Devil really keep or could he keep us from being saved?How about now?Maybe the Devil doesn't have any true control over who is saved and who isn't.



      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

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Buddy
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Graceman,

 

If I use percentages to measure the success of God then he really, really, really got his butt kicked in the times of Noah. (God six Satan Millions)  

My point being, the very one you bring up in Hebrews 2:14-15;

"Since the children have flesh and blood he too shared in thier humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death-that is, the Devil-and free those who all thier lives were held in slavery by thier fear of death."

The work of Christ is finished despite what we think we percieve in this world and that work according to this passage was to destroy the power of Satan who holds the power of death.  This has set us free from the slavery of our fear of the same.

The greek word is to "render powerless" or to define it more clearly from the Greek Lexicon;

  1. to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
    1. to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
    2. to deprive of force, influence, power
  2. to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
    1. to cease, to pass away, be done away
    2. to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one
    3. to terminate all intercourse with one

It is important to note that the devil nor his works were destroyed but they were rendered powerless.  So the works of the Devil have been rendered powerless by the death and ressurection of Christ and that work was the fear of death that kept us in slavery to our flesh and world system that functions on fear.

The only weapon that the evil one now has is to deceive the world that the work of God failed and that they are still dead and must live in fear of the same.  He is powerless, but he puffs himself up with his own deceptions and displays a world of violence and destruction to further his lie.

Some things to ponder,

Buddy

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Buddy
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Posted: Jan-25-07 at 11:49am | IP Logged  

Luvin,

I think we are saying the same thing here;

"can the Devil really keep or could he keep us from being saved?How about now?Maybe the Devil doesn't have any true control over who is saved and who isn't."

I don't believe he has any control over nor can he keep us from being saved.  That is what Paul was trying to say in Hebrews.  He has no real power other than the ability to decieve and create a false reality.  I have never resolved in my mind, and probably never will, how this relates to those that still live in darkness and the whole issue of choice vs no choice. Jesus did refer to satan as the Father of lies and so their seems to be some big connection thier.

Buddy

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Buddy
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Posted: Jan-25-07 at 2:05pm | IP Logged  

To try and tie my thoughts together a little more on this consider what Jesus said in John 3:16-21.

16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only  begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the  Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their  deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

In Summary;

Jesus did not come to judge the world but to save it

He who beleives in not judged

Those that don't believe judge themselves and stay in darkness

The reason they stay in darkness is thier fear

This is so powerfull to me.  Christ will not judge us but we are decieved into judging ourselves and thus live in the lie that we are seperated from God. This also ties into the book of 1 John regarding fear and punishment and how perfect love can cast out that fear.  In response to our self judgement we do some very crazy things to ourselves and others.  This is the ultimate in spiritual insanity.  That people can live in a phsycotic paranoid spiritual world of self deception rather than living in the truth and life of God.  It is in this truth only that we can find ourselves in Christ.

Sorry if I get fired up on this stuff but it is so exciting to explore these truths together.

Buddy

 

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luvin
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Posted: Jan-25-07 at 2:38pm | IP Logged  

Buddy wrote:

Luvin,

I think we are saying the same thing here;

"can the Devil really keep or could he keep us from being saved?How about now?Maybe the Devil doesn't have any true control over who is saved and who isn't."

I don't believe he has any control over nor can he keep us from being saved.  That is what Paul was trying to say in Hebrews.  He has no real power other than the ability to decieve and create a false reality.  I have never resolved in my mind, and probably never will, how this relates to those that still live in darkness and the whole issue of choice vs no choice. Jesus did refer to satan as the Father of lies and so their seems to be some big connection thier.

Buddy

 

Buddy I definatly think you hit it on the head!Satan LOST..how?God accomplished.



      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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luvin
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Posted: Jan-25-07 at 2:43pm | IP Logged  

This is so powerfull to me.  Christ will not judge us but we are decieved into judging ourselves and thus live in the lie that we are seperated from God. -Buddy

 

Yes we {I} do!It's that away until we are convinced that we no longer NEED to do this.Once we are secure that sins power isn't working the way we were decieved to think it would work[through law] then we are free to allow it to be what it is ...DEAD.Otherwise we can't handle the reality of it being possible for that would necessitate that we would be allowing Jesus to be exposed to sin[ours].



      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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Buddy
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Posted: Jan-25-07 at 6:29pm | IP Logged  

Luvin,

Your words remind me of how painfull the process of death to my false self can be.  Amazing how something so unreal can feel so real, and hurt so real, and cause such grief.  I don't know how it happens because it is such a God thing, but when my mind is renewed, the feeling of freedom,joy and peace is so sweet.

Buddy

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graceman
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Posted: Jan-25-07 at 6:46pm | IP Logged  

Buddy,

One problem I see with what you shared.  The four 'Gospels' are accounts of Jesus Christ dealings with the children of Israel...the Jews.  There is a verse where he clearly says, "I was commissioned ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel".  His was a prophetic and legalistic ministry to them...He was 'laying the law on them'.  For sure, we can see His compassion in healing people and he foretold of his redeeming work that would be accomplished for the whole world.  BUT...the full ramifications of WHAT CHRIST HAD ACCOMPLISHED was revealed to the Apostle Paul by the resurrected Christ through the Holy Spirit.  Its mindboggling to me that Paul received from Christ the revelation that He indeed had saved the whole world!  This came from the mouth of Christ Himself! 

You mention in your post that Jesus came not to judge the world, but to save it.

I ask, 'Did He succeed?'  Or did He really mean, 'I'll come to save a SELECT FEW, and well...TO HELL WITH EVERYONE ELSE!'

Paul's prayer was that we may know the awesome depths of the love of Christ...is it possible that His Love has acted in ways that cannot be comprehended by man's 'plan of salvation'?

 

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Connie
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Posted: Jan-25-07 at 7:04pm | IP Logged  

Chris,

You've really given some food for thought here. So, are you pointing out that we'll never be able to comprehend, in this life, what salvation truly is? And this is'nt a trick question...I'm really wanting to see how you're seeing it now.



Edited by Connie on Jan-25-07 at 7:05pm


      

Connie
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luvin
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Posted: Jan-25-07 at 7:10pm | IP Logged  

Connie.Missed ya.

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

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Buddy
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Posted: Jan-25-07 at 7:51pm | IP Logged  

Hi Graceman,

Could you please be more specific about which thing I wrote and how it relates to your response.  I am not understanding your last post and this would help me.

Thanks,

Buddy
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Joyce
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Posted: Jan-25-07 at 7:56pm | IP Logged  

Buddy,

In response to your comment about "their staying in darkness because of fear...  I can't remember if I felt so much that way before becoming a believer, but know that I stayed in the mindset of the ic because of fear.... being told falsehood that would keep me in the same thinking for fear of not being "with God" because they knew how He felt about things and I didn't want to step outside of that.  I see that in my ic friends as well.  Things that are ingrained so that you would fear doing or thinking wrong if you went against the system that you were taught was "right" and the way God is.

Joyce

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luvin
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It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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the shovel
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Posted: Jan-25-07 at 8:03pm | IP Logged  

Chris wrote:
The four 'Gospels' are accounts of Jesus Christ dealings with the children of Israel...the Jews.  There is a verse where he clearly says, "I was commissioned ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel".  His was a prophetic and legalistic ministry to them...He was 'laying the law on them'.


Hi Chris,

I've heard this viewpoint expressed many times, but I think it's often a quick way to lump everything together for an easy explanation of troubling verses. It's just easier to say that he was preaching law. When Jesus told the Canaanite woman he was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel he wasn't excluding the Gentile woman but provoking faith in her, and he did it in front of those who assumed she had nothing to do with the God of Israel.

"For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ."

And as far as John's statement about Jesus saving the world in John 3 you might want to consider it together with what was stated about "the world" from the beginning of John's writing. It is not as shallow as we usually tend to think of it. :)

Jim


      

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Buddy
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Posted: Jan-25-07 at 9:57pm | IP Logged  

Hi Joyce,

Good and valid point about the IC. I think if you are in or out of the IC before Christ it is really the same law driven fear that wants to protect the temporary self.  ONe is without the guise of religion the other is under the  religion but they are one in the same.

Jesus framed religious darkness disguising as light well when he said;

Matthew 6:19-24 19 "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. 22 "The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!

Amen, false religion is indeed the deepest form of darkness.
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luvin
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Posted: Jan-26-07 at 1:05am | IP Logged  

He was talking right smack-dab to the pharisees wasn't he!

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

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Joyce
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Posted: Jan-26-07 at 9:00am | IP Logged  

Adam,

Yes, it seems from what we are learning that the ones judging (Pharasees) were the ones often being spoken to by Jesus, turning the tables on them, (so to speak) by bringing up their expectations that they layed on the "lay people".  I think what was key was that the power of the Spirit within Christ, when He spoke the words made them feel uncomfortable (to say the least) because they knew that it applied to them.

Buddy,

Yes, I think that self preservation of the "temporary self" as you put it, (whatever we perceive that to be) has alot to do with why we fear.  Not sure why it is that way, but it is.  Maybe we're trying to preserve that which isn't the real us.

Joyce



Edited by Joyce on Jan-26-07 at 9:05am
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Rest and Trust
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Posted: Jan-26-07 at 11:57am | IP Logged  

Joyce wrote:
Yes, I think that self preservation of the "temporary self" as you put it, (whatever we perceive that to be) has alot to do with why we fear.  Not sure why it is that way, but it is.  Maybe we're trying to preserve that which isn't the real us.

  I wonder how much the ongoing accusations from satan can be a self protection mechanism (if you will) to the idea or illusion that our old nature is still alive?

Satan (or "the enemy") wants the illlusion that the adamic nature continues to be alive and viable, why? Could it be that satan only has (or had) power over the adamic nature?
  

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Rest and Trust
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the shovel wrote:
Chris wrote:
The four 'Gospels' are accounts of Jesus Christ dealings with the children of Israel...the Jews.  There is a verse where he clearly says, "I was commissioned ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel".  His was a prophetic and legalistic ministry to them...He was 'laying the law on them'.


Hi Chris,

I've heard this viewpoint expressed many times, but I think it's often a quick way to lump everything together for an easy explanation of troubling verses. It's just easier to say that he was preaching law. When Jesus told the Canaanite woman he was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel he wasn't excluding the Gentile woman but provoking faith in her, and he did it in front of those who assumed she had nothing to do with the God of Israel.

"For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ."

And as far as John's statement about Jesus saving the world in John 3 you might want to consider it together with what was stated about "the world" from the beginning of John's writing. It is not as shallow as we usually tend to think of it. :)

Jim

When I first heard the teaching from Bob George and others- that Jesus during His minsitry was simply expounding on the covenant or the Law that came through Moses, I found it very compelling. The logic behind the teaching really seemed to make a lot of sense. But I have since come to reject much of that teaching. Before hearing that teaching I found the roots or seeds of just about every precept that Paul put forth, to be in the Gospels. I continue to see it that way now. Just something that I have experienced.       

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Connie
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luvin wrote:
Connie.Missed ya.

thanks Adam.  I've just been  lurking around lately,for the most part, and reading.  I always enjoy reading your thoughts.  You have such an honest and open heart. It does me good.



      

Connie
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luvin
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Posted: Jan-26-07 at 7:57pm | IP Logged  

Thanks Connie,

I am finding safety to do so through my beleifs about Him.



      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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