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Biblical Interpretation
 Shovel Shack : Biblical Interpretation
Subject Topic: Thank GOD there is RESURRECTION! :)
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Dignz
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Posted: Jun-19-11 at 5:06am | IP Logged  

I was just quickly reading through and really being blessed by 1st Corinthians 15!!  

I will post it here in case anyone else finds it to be a real 'pick me up'.    forgive me for my little purple additions ... just a few thoughts that came to mind as i read along.    please feel free to jump in and help me out where i need it ... please. 

1 Corinthians 15 - New American Standard Bible - a resurrection discussion 

    "Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I (Paul) preached to you, (Believers in Corinth) which also you received, in which also you stand,  by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I (Paul) preached to you, (as opposed to the other false teachers and those who preached the law and themselves) unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,  and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,  and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.  After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;  then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.  For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.  But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.  Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.  Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised.  For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.  Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.  If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.  But!! now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep (not perished).  For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.  For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.  (is this not saying that all who are in adam die, and all who are in christ will live?)  But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,  then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.  For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death.  For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.  When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.   (does anyone know what 'abolishing' and 'putting under His feet' have in common before the all in all subjection is all-ed?)     Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead?  <-(what does that mean? who is baptized for the dead?If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?  Why are we (apostles) also in danger every hour?  I affirm, brethren, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.  If from human motives I fought with wild beasts at Ephesus, what does it profit me? If the dead are not raised, LET US EAT AND DRINK, FOR TOMORROW WE DIE.  Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good morals.”  Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God.  I speak this to your shame.    But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?”  (not as some reincarnated ancestor or pet or star in the sky ...) You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies;  and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else.  But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own.  All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish.  There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.  There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.  So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;  it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.”  <-(is this meaning that man originates a soulish creature, kind of implying that spirits may come and go, but only Christ is the Life-giving Spirit?)->  The last Adam (Jesus Christ) became a life-giving spirit.  However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.  The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.  As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.  Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.  (thank GOD!)   Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.  Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,  in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet;  the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.  For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.  But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.  O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?”  The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;  but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.  Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, (not the work of the law) knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord."




      

"afterall, he's not a tame lion"
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the shovel
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Posted: Jun-19-11 at 8:48am | IP Logged  

Dignz wrote:
Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead?  <-(what does that mean? who is baptized for the dead?If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?


This is still based upon the argument made among the Corinthians that the dead do not rise, which is why he starts with "otherwise." It's an additional point Paul made regarding how the dead not rising affects everything connected to faith in Christ. Here, he brings up absurdity of taking part in the ritual now known as water baptism. For what does the act declare other than the joining of those in faith to the whole body of believers in Christ?

I'm not sure why the translators would render the phrase as being "FOR the dead" rather than other legitimate possibilities — like regarding, concerning, or about — especially in view of how the religious mind has come up with a ritual that makes some kind of a plea bargain for dead loved ones who may need a little help getting past the pearly gates. You could only come up with something like that if you totally pull verses out of context so that you can make them mean whatever you want them to mean ... you know, like what is done in most religious systems.

"Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied."  (1 Corinthians 15:18-19, NASB)

Anyhow, Paul was commenting on the ridiculousness of being joined together with those in Christ, a portion who had already perished, which means that if the dead do not rise, they were being put into a dead body. Why would you hold to something like that? Why be making a public declaration of being joined together with the living if it's all just the same old passing existence we were supposedly delivered from?

Jim


Edited by the shovel on Jun-19-11 at 8:59am


      

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goof
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Posted: Jun-19-11 at 2:55pm | IP Logged  

Dignz wrote:
(is this not saying that all who are in adam die, and all who are in christ will live?)


Redemption appears many time in the Old Testament:
- Psalms 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.
- Hosea 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death
- Isaiah 51:11 Therefore the redeemed of the LORD shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head
- Eze 18:23     Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: [and] not that he should return from his ways, and live?

So on and so forth.

I think Paul had an unpleasantly tendancy; a disturbing urge to kill people.

Just kidding :)


Dignz wrote:
(what does that mean? who is baptized for the dead?

What the purpose of baptizing, if you die.

Paul's journey:
http://i52.tinypic.com/iglxrk.jpg
http://pastehtml.com/view/axov7i2rv.rtxt








Edited by goof on Jun-19-11 at 3:51pm


      

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:23
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Dignz
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Posted: Jun-24-11 at 4:59am | IP Logged  

hey, this one kind of got away from me.  thank you, James for sharing your insight.    always much appreciated.     

i was reading yesterday somewhere on some site or other about how the Jews had a pretty hefty ritual of some kind of washing after their burial of the dead, whether or not they ever even actually touched the dead in any part of the burial process.   i was wondering if that could have anything to do at all with what Paul was talking about or eluding to as well?  if that gave the Jews amongst them, and/or maybe the 'Jew wannabes' amongst them an even more vivid picture of what he meant?  i dunno.  just something else to add to my brain's confusion,      'cuz i don't know what the connection would be in the context of what he was writing to them???  do you?  me not being a Jew and not knowing what that was all about, i don't really 'get it'. 

i like very much what you explained, keeping it all in the context of what the Corinthians (who were Gentile, right?) believed or were being led to believe about resurrection, etc.  were they influenced by the Jews, perhaps.  i know there were always the spies who would be sent-in amongst them to sneak in and infiltrate with law, religious 'wisdom' and bondage, etc. 

and yet, that doesn't make sense either, 'cuz the Jews believed in resurrection, right?  phew ... now i have reahhhhhlly confused myself.         just from one little sentence out of the whole of the context!  that is how it happens tho' isn't it?  distraction, buzz words, not knowing the history and personal relationships and communications between specific people and peoples, the language, the various interpretations, etc.  sheeeeeesh mon!  

i always love how you keep it in context, but you see how i can even mix that up!     




Edited by Dignz on Jun-24-11 at 5:13am


      

"afterall, he's not a tame lion"
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HarryTick
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Posted: Sep-22-11 at 7:23am | IP Logged  

familie=world of warcraft spam?

Jim,

Having come from an LDS background, where there is a
ritual "baptism for the dead" (probably largely in
part to this chapter), I remember reading that there
were Jewish or Christian sects, even back then, that
practiced baptism for the dead. If so, maybe Paul is
using the same belief, that the benefits of faith
can be extended to others beyond the grave, to show
a wider belief in resurrection than just the group
he is addressing. It would be assumed that the
Corinthians knew of this group or practice for Paul
to make the argument.

Then there is the thought of all his previous
discussion about sleeping and perishing. How the
differentiation is made, as Sherri pointed out, for
those who die with faith and those who die without.

Edited by HarryTick on Sep-22-11 at 7:27am


      

Love,
Bill
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heretic - n 1: a person who holds beliefs in conflict with the dogma of churches.
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the shovel
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Posted: Sep-22-11 at 1:37pm | IP Logged  

HarryTick wrote:
familie=world of warcraft spam?

Who knows? But he's already gone.

By the way, I will sooner or later begin implementing a new Shovel Shack under the domain shovelshack.ORG. I already bought the domain and have just begun to experiment. Basically, I uploaded the Drupal CMS (Content Management System) and turned on a few features and made a couple posts. I'll have way more control over how registrations will be set up, which will keep out the spam (as it does on theshovel.net). You can visit the experimental site if you want. I will keep the domain shovelshack.net, but I will archive everything ... for posterity's sake.

HarryTick wrote:
Jim,

Having come from an LDS background, where there is a ritual "baptism for the dead" (probably largely in part to this chapter), I remember reading that there were Jewish or Christian sects, even back then, that practiced baptism for the dead. If so, maybe Paul is using the same belief, that the benefits of faith can be extended to others beyond the grave, to show a wider belief in resurrection than just the group he is addressing. It would be assumed that the Corinthians knew of this group or practice for Paul to make the argument.


There could be something to that, but right now I don't see as strong a connection. I'll definitely keep it in mind as I continue looking through the letter. :)

HarryTick wrote:
Then there is the thought of all his previous discussion about sleeping and perishing. How the differentiation is made, as Sherri pointed out, for
those who die with faith and those who die without.


How would you see that tying in?

Jim


      

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HarryTick
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Posted: Sep-22-11 at 8:52pm | IP Logged  

I don't know, because, honestly, I haven't looked it over in a while. Some running
thoughts that are likely not to clear things up.

The phrase pops out at me, "...unless you believed in vain." Paul's argument is focused
on the futility of faith if you discount what Christ has done. I don't think he means
"just" the resurrection. If I guessed by looking at the chapter alone, I would say that
Paul was getting at the silliness of picking what Christ does for us and demanding we
do the rest ourselves (Christ died for us, but you gotta behave to make it to the
resurrection).

"Bad company corrupts good morals." This is another phrase that strikes me oddly
because it is a quote in this translation. I wonder if this was something said in
warning to the Corinthians in regards to Paul? "Do not be deceived by this thought:"?
The Corinthians were excluding others who weren't "behaving" properly? The Law raising
its head again? It seems to tie in with the ending of the chapter.

"Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some do not even have
knowledge of God." Snap out of it! Other people have an excuse, they don't even know
who God is.

In light of those thoughts, what does baptism for the dead mean? It could very
well be a wake-up call, another side to the same argument about being baptized again.
In that instance, those were baptized again because of the perception that they became
dirty "again". Baptism here not necessarily meaning the rebirth we take it as, but a
regression to the generic cleansing that most Jews understood it as. In which
case, baptizing those who would not rise again, the dead, would be pointless. Not
necessarily the same way of stating what you did, Jim, about being baptized into a dead
body, but still the same point. A worthless gesture unless there is something real to
the reason to do it.

      

Love,
Bill
theHarryTick™

heretic - n 1: a person who holds beliefs in conflict with the dogma of churches.
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the shovel
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Posted: Sep-23-11 at 2:22am | IP Logged  

Quote:
Not necessarily the same way of stating what you did, Jim, about being baptized into a dead body, but still the same point. A worthless gesture unless there is something real to the reason to do it.


Yes, this is the bottom line, isn't it? :) I'm just about heading out the door, but I wanted to at least pop in to thank you for continuing on this. Maybe I will think more on it during the day as I'm stocking shelves or something.

I love you, my dear brother!
Jim


      

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