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Biblical Interpretation
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Subject Topic: Do we allow choice?
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Shackaholic
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Posted: Jan-05-07 at 9:41pm | IP Logged  

I believe the discussion here lately about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil got me to thinking about this. Don't know if I can express what I am thinking very well but here goes. I wonder if mankind offers one another the freedom to choose in the same way that God offered mankind the choice in the garden of Eden? It amazes me that God (like Mike said in another thread) allowed Himself to be vulnerable and the humility it would have required for God to create a being that could choose to be contrary to Himself. On the other hand, does mankind allow each other the freedom to choose to eat of the tree of Life? Obviously in the IC there is little or no choice allowed but is there complete freedom of this type of choice (to eat of the tree of Life or the good and evil knowledge tree) to be found anywhere? Is there a strong restrictive atmosphere everywhere? Don't know why this struck me as profound, I would really enjoy hearing anyones thoughts and/or experiences.     

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luvin
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hmm..good thoughts dude.You said:

"On the other hand, does mankind allow each other the freedom to choose to eat of the tree of Life?:"

Well im not sure they do!Although man can not stop the spirit of Christ,he certainly seems to make it real hard on us in the flesh to have any easy time coming to this.



      

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Broken Link
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If God can take "sinful choices" and work it, along with all things, to the good of them that love him, where do we arrive at our conclusions about those choices? If what is intended for evil has a good result, was it evil? Is it all about intent? Is it all about the judgment? And ultimately, if a sinful or evil choice is made and it is made to work out to good...did the evil choice matter?

Just some of my questions.



      

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Chickenlips
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Good post Joe.  Two passages came to mind.

...the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Rom 8:7-9)

For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (Rom 7:14-25)

To me, the choice is an easy one, but most have been deceived into believing the choice is hard.  I liken it to breathing.  I breathe naturally, but at anytime I can choose to hold my breath.  Holding my breath is unnatural, yet I can choose to do it.  Likewise, Christs life comes natural to a believer, but we have the ability to choose to live against it.  The pattern of this world (i.e. religion) has ingrained in us the habit of thinking and acting in certain ways (i.e. flesh patterns).  These are all unnatural to a believer.  Jesus said to daily take up the cross, deny ourselves and follow.  I believe this is the self to be denied -- instead He wants us to relax, live naturally, rest, and walk in the liberty which we have been given. 

If you remember the bunny illustration I have shared before.; I can act like a rabbit anytime I want, and go hopping all day.  But my pain and misery at the end of the day does not reveal what a lousy rabbit I am, it reveals what I really am.  I am a man, and acting like a rabbit is NOT comfortable.  Believers who live carnally in unrighteousness (evil) or in self-righteousness (good) are living in an unnatural way.  Their true condition is revealed through their misery! Christ is his or her life!  Christ is natural, and it was a revelation to me to discover how easy the Christian life is when I simply stop trying and let it flow. 

Hmm - new thought for me (i.e. Revelation! ).  When I live un-righteously it is like trying to hold my breath and I begin to suffocate.  When I live self-righteously it is like trying to force my breath and I hyperventilate.   Either way I am miserable.  But when I rest and stop trying it all comes naturally and I don't even think about it.  Then it is not me doing it, but Christ in (through) me.  Apart from Him I cannot do anything!  WOW!  I have a lot to ponder with that one! 

 



Edited by Chickenlips on Jan-06-07 at 8:54am


      

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luvin
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Broken Link wrote:

If God can take "sinful choices" and work it, along with all things, to the good of them that love him, where do we arrive at our conclusions about those choices? If what is intended for evil has a good result, was it evil? Is it all about intent? Is it all about the judgment? And ultimately, if a sinful or evil choice is made and it is made to work out to good...did the evil choice matter?

Just some of my questions.

 

 

Bill your questions i guess only raise MORE questions in my mind.What do you mean by "judgment" in this context?What is your thought about "evil" choices mattering?



      

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Quote:
Bill your questions i guess only raise MORE questions in my mind.What do you mean by "judgment" in this context?What is your thought about "evil" choices mattering?
Adam, I've always thought we got too hooked on whether or not choices were ours or God's will for us. We kind of turned God's will into being about what we do or what happens to us temporally to impact our and other people's spiritual condition.

I would say that God's will IS our spiritual condition.

So, I guess the judgment I'm talking about is the viewpoint that decides that the good or evil of a choice is what guides us to attempt to remain in God's will for making the "right" choices.

Not sure if that clears it up or makes it more muddy.



      

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luvin
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No it does make sense Bill,

It raises a good point in fact.

 

"Adam, I've always thought we got too hooked on whether or not choices were ours or God's will for us. We kind of turned God's will into being about what we do or what happens to us temporally to impact our and other people's spiritual condition."-Bill

I know what you mean by this I think.It's the thought that are lives are  only "in His will" when we are "led" only to decisions that would bring a sort of glorification to others and /or ourselves.Sort of helping along the process of God "growing us" or "others".To me it's just another way of bringing glory to oneself and providing some sort of fleshly worth to God and mankind. For instance if I say"God used me to reveal to you that smoking is immoral"..or even"my choice to withdraw from going to a bar is what God was ""using"" to teach me something"...only brings glory to my DECISIONS and my abilikty to make the "right" choice.

 



      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

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luvin
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Bill,

"Gods will"-MAN O MAN IS AN ABUSED RELIGOUS CONCEPT FOR MOST ISNT IT?Can you tell me more about what you think God's "will" Is?I love to share about that!



      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

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graceman
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Joe...your belief that Adam was free in the garden...how does that square with the statement in Romans that the world was SUBJECTED to futility...not by its own will, but by the will of Him who subjected it?

How does it square with the truth that God HAS LOCKED ALL up into stubborness, so that He may have mercy on ALL.

We've never had free will...because we've never been God.

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luvin wrote:
Well im not sure they do!Although man can not stop the spirit of Christ,he certainly seems to make it real hard on us in the flesh to have any easy time coming to this.

Interesting Adam, this makes me wonder if the question would make more sense if it were a little more specific. I.e.-does the Adamic nature allow or desire there to be any freedom to choose the "tree of Life"? 

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Broken Link wrote:

If God can take "sinful choices" and work it, along with all things, to the good of them that love him, where do we arrive at our conclusions about those choices? If what is intended for evil has a good result, was it evil? Is it all about intent? Is it all about the judgment? And ultimately, if a sinful or evil choice is made and it is made to work out to good...did the evil choice matter?

Just some of my questions.

Having 12 brothers and being named Joseph, the precept about "what you meant for evil God meant for good" has had special significance for me.   

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graceman wrote:
Joe...your belief that Adam was free in the garden...how does that square with the statement in Romans that the world was SUBJECTED to futility...not by its own will, but by the will of Him who subjected it?

I have always considered the "him" in that scripture to be Adam. Are you saying that it was God? Will have to re-visit that. 

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Chickenlips wrote:
Hmm - new thought for me (i.e. Revelation! ).  When I live un-righteously it is like trying to hold my breath and I begin to suffocate.  When I live self-righteously it is like trying to force my breath and I hyperventilate.   Either way I am miserable.  But when I rest and stop trying it all comes naturally and I don't even think about it.  Then it is not me doing it, but Christ in (through) me.  Apart from Him I cannot do anything! 

Rich thought Mike.  

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LibertyBelle78
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my question is:

does Jesus actually look upon our carnality or does he only view us in the spirit of life?

becuz if he only sees us as righteous (in him), i would imagine that no matter what we do, his will is done anyhow. we would have no control over that.

am i saying that we may as well do whatever our flesh tells us? no way!! i'm saying that if we, thru the grace of Jesus, see ourselves and other people as the righteousness of Christ, we will find ourselves walking in the spirit of life in Christ Jesus and we won't be paying so much attention to the flesh.

does that make sense to anyone?  


Edited by LibertyBelle78 on Jan-06-07 at 1:28pm
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luvin
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Joe..to me..i'm not sure it really even matters.If i had to speculate i'd say ..maybye,but it would be hinged on Gods design/or ability within vs. something we can do by trying.

 

"I.e.-does the Adamic nature allow or desire there to be any freedom to choose the "tree of Life"? -Joe



      

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luvin wrote:
No it does make sense Bill,

It raises a good point in fact.

 

"Adam, I've always thought we got too hooked on whether or not choices were ours or God's will for us. We kind of turned God's will into being about what we do or what happens to us temporally to impact our and other people's spiritual condition."-Bill

I know what you mean by this I think.It's the thought that are lives are  only "in His will" when we are "led" only to decisions that would bring a sort of glorification to others and /or ourselves.Sort of helping along the process of God "growing us" or "others".To me it's just another way of bringing glory to oneself and providing some sort of fleshly worth to God and mankind. For instance if I say"God used me to reveal to you that smoking is immoral"..or even"my choice to withdraw from going to a bar is what God was ""using"" to teach me something"...only brings glory to my DECISIONS and my abilikty to make the "right" choice.

Adam,

That is it!



      

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Connie
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Broken Link wrote:
luvin wrote:
No it does make sense Bill,

It raises a good point in fact.

 

"Adam, I've always thought we got too hooked on whether or not choices were ours or God's will for us. We kind of turned God's will into being about what we do or what happens to us temporally to impact our and other people's spiritual condition."-Bill

I know what you mean by this I think.It's the thought that are lives are  only "in His will" when we are "led" only to decisions that would bring a sort of glorification to others and /or ourselves.Sort of helping along the process of God "growing us" or "others".To me it's just another way of bringing glory to oneself and providing some sort of fleshly worth to God and mankind. For instance if I say"God used me to reveal to you that smoking is immoral"..or even"my choice to withdraw from going to a bar is what God was ""using"" to teach me something"...only brings glory to my DECISIONS and my abilikty to make the "right" choice.

Adam,

That is it!

This is so right on when we consider that Jesus Christ was publicly know as a friend of drunkards, gluttons, tax collectors and prostitutes.  Those people obviously didn't choose him, he chose them.  What an awesome thought to really, finally see that He chose us!!!!



      

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luvin wrote:
Bill,

"Gods will"-MAN O MAN IS AN ABUSED RELIGOUS CONCEPT FOR MOST ISNT IT?Can you tell me more about what you think God's "will" Is?I love to share about that!

Adam,

You know its not fair to entice me with such subjects!

Now, with my previous warning about context, lemme lay some context upon you. At the very least, maybe its just my understanding of the context...

John wrote:
Jesus: "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."



      

Bill
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LibertyBelle78 wrote:
my question is:

does Jesus actually look upon our carnality or does he only view us in the spirit of life?
What do you mean by carnality?

      

Bill
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Tonym
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I dont know if mankind or most who profess Christ even know that there is "the Tree of Life". 

      

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luvin
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Bill,

I am pretty sure I see what your'e getting at.Lemme see.. how about this?[see below]:

For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."



      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

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What a simple will, huh? For myself, since I seem to find myself unable to not believe, it is ultimately comforting after all those years of searching out his will for my life to come to a point where he is pleased...PLEASED that I just believe in him.



      

Bill
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Tonym wrote:
I dont know if mankind or most who profess Christ even know that there is "the Tree of Life". 

You got that right Tony. The darkness that goes along with living from the tree (of the knowledge of good and evil) does not even allow the person to see the death they are eating.



Edited by Rest and Trust on Jan-07-07 at 11:45am
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Broken Link wrote:
John wrote:
Jesus: "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

Like the way you put that into the forum /Quote thingy, Bill.  

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Yeah, it's a neat little trick with the quote feature:

"Quote=Matthew, Mark, Luke & John" in between the "[" and "]"

creates:

Matthew, Mark, Luke & John wrote:
The four gospels of the New Testament

Don't forget the closing "/Quote" with "[" and "]"



      

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luvin
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Broken Link wrote:

What a simple will, huh? For myself, since I seem to find myself unable to not believe, it is ultimately comforting after all those years of searching out his will for my life to come to a point where he is pleased...PLEASED that I just believe in him.

It is simple,at least in this context anyway.I wonder why we are so propelled to add to it though?Yah..He is pleased..got a nice ring to it..the very thing you can not help..He is pleased with!Wow what a Life eh?



      

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Don't know if this makes any difference to anyone or not...the word 'eternal' in the passage Adam quoted, is more properly translated 'eonian' meaning 'age enduring' or 'pertaining to an age'.  The importance to me is that it means anything but eternal...eternal has no beginning and no end.

This becomes very important when considering passages that have been rendered 'eternal punishment'.  Nowhere in the bible, (when properly translated) is the idea of 'eternal punishment' conveyed.

 

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I wasn't sure what scripture you were talking about Chris. Read it again, and something that jumped out at me, with regard to the topic (and maybe that is why Bill used it) was this- 

Jesus: "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

God the Son speaking of- not doing His own will. Drawing some type of distinction between His and God the Fathers will. I wonder where Jesus was coming from here?  

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graceman wrote:
Don't know if this makes any difference to anyone or not...the word 'eternal' in the passage Adam quoted, is more properly translated 'eonian' meaning 'age enduring' or 'pertaining to an age'.  The importance to me is that it means anything but eternal...eternal has no beginning and no end.

Dind't mean ot side-step your point, Chris. I'm curious though, what would be the meaning of this particular scripture if the word age was inserted into it, in the place of eternity or everlasting?  

   

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Rest and Trust wrote:

I wasn't sure what scripture you were talking about Chris. Read it again, and something that jumped out at me, with regard to the topic (and maybe that is why Bill used it) was this- 

Jesus: "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

God the Son speaking of- not doing His own will. Drawing some type of distinction between His and God the Fathers will. I wonder where Jesus was coming from here?  

 

 

Well Joe MOST of the christian teaching iv'e been exposed to would say that we were responsible to copy that pattern of Jesus and "gut it out for God" the same way He did.Or they might point to some hard,impossible standard of daily living that would be wrapped up in a title like "walking in the spirit of obedience" or something.They might even say we are to be "led" the same way.There would be all sorts of things that would require us to be tremendously humble,faithful and spiritual in our own strength or in "Gods", but I for one have never experienced God's power in and of myself only DESPITE myself .Secondly i'm not sure but i have got  to assume the premise of those things is way off to begin with to be arriving at those law abiding conclusions...namely that Jesus was asking us to do ANYTHING at all.Maybye He was simply stating that He DID indeed come to do His Fathers will and not His own..He was drawing others attention to God not glorifying Himself..rather letting His father draw men unto HIm[Jesus] ..to follow.Just some of my current day thoughts...yours?  



      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

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Joe,

The life that is being spoken of here is 'eonian life'...not eternal life.  (No beginning and no end.)  I used to be told that this term 'eternal life' meant I now have God's life...because God is the only one with an eternal life. (Exchanged Life circles)  I believe what Christ is speaking of here is life in an 'eonian' sense.  Referring to a period of time...it may be the 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth, I'm not sure.   I know one thing...that Greek word DOES NOT mean eternal.

It may be interesting to look up all the uses of the word 'eternal' in our modern translations and find out if, in fact, the Greek is putting forward the idea of eternity or eonian (eon).

Why does this seem important (at least to me)?

We have been told various things by 'the church' regarding eternity.

              1) We have an eternal soul.

              2) Our eternal soul will be 'somewhere'...for eternity...heaven or hell.

              3) The biggie...IF YOU GO TO HELL YOU WILL BE THERE FOR ETERNITY.

As the Shovel is pointing out  in the Shoveletter series on HELL...this reasoning is biblically false.  Is it possible, the conventional understanding of eternity vs. eonian may also be false.  (I think so.)

A point to remember in considering the above passage was that Jesus Christ was commissioned only to go to the 'lost sheep' of Israel.  What He is speaking in the Gospels (is that a good name for this grouping of books?) was specifically spoken to the Jews.  Evangelicals have taken every word of Jesus to BE SPOKEN TO THEM...I don't think so.  God has spoken to us...IN THE PERSON OF HIS SON. (Versus every word written in RED!)

The full revelation of what Jesus Christ has done for mankind was revealed to Paul, who shared the 'full counsel of God' with the Gentiles.  Much of what the IC shared with its listeners, is AT BEST, law and grace mixed...which Paul concluded was another gospel.

I have other thoughts about applying the understanding of eonian...but I will spare everyone my ramblings.  I am not a theologian for sure, just a witness.

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Rest and Trust
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luvin wrote:

 

Well Joe MOST of the christian teaching iv'e been exposed to would say that we were responsible to copy that pattern of Jesus and "gut it out for God" the same way He did.Or they might point to some hard,impossible standard of daily living that would be wrapped up in a title like "walking in the spirit of obedience" or something.They might even say we are to be "led" the same way.There would be all sorts of things that would require us to be tremendously humble,faithful and spiritual in our own strength or in "Gods", but I for one have never experienced God's power in and of myself only DESPITE myself.

Its kinda interesting, Adam. I was just responding to the topic Buddy mentioned with some of these same issues.

luvin wrote:
Secondly i'm not sure but i have got  to assume the premise of those things is way off to begin with to be arriving at those law abiding conclusions...namely that Jesus was asking us to do ANYTHING at all.Maybye He was simply stating that He DID indeed come to do His Fathers will and not His own..He was drawing others attention to God not glorifying Himself..rather letting His father draw men unto HIm[Jesus] ..to follow.Just some of my current day thoughts...yours?  

Yeah, amen! I don't believe there is any question that Jesus was glorifying the Father.

It is interesting though that Jesus mentions that He had his own will and the Father had another will.  

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graceman wrote:
The life that is being spoken of here is 'eonian life'...not eternal life.  (No beginning and no end.)  I used to be told that this term 'eternal life' meant I now have God's life...because God is the only one with an eternal life. (Exchanged Life circles)  I believe what Christ is speaking of here is life in an 'eonian' sense.  Referring to a period of time...it may be the 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth, I'm not sure.   I know one thing...that Greek word DOES NOT mean eternal.

At first glance I find no logical way to wrap the context of this scripture around the word "age".

But I will give it some more thought, I really enjoy seeking and finding Truth. 

graceman wrote:
I have other thoughts about applying the understanding of eonian...but I will spare everyone my ramblings.  I am not a theologian for sure, just a witness.

I really like the status quo of my understanding (so to speak) being challenged. So, "ramble away". "One anda two anda three"- lets all ramble away together.  

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graceman
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I think when Jesus said, He came not to 'do His own will', He is using this as a contrast to what ALL OTHER human beings were doing at that time...namely their own will!  He was at the same time identifying with man...(Jesus had a will) and yet identifying Himself as the NEW MAN (He had come to do the will of Him who sent Him).  Just a thought....
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Joyce
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I like what you said Chris about how it is that God has spoken to us in the person of His Son compared to the red letters.  It goes along with "searching the scriptures" and thinking that was where it was, but that was that which really spoke of Him.  Anyway, feel like I am butting in on other conversations going on here, but wondered (from any here) more specifically how it is that we are spoken to in the 'person of His Son'....  maybe like examples of that.  Thanks.

Joyce

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luvin
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I also think Joe,Graceman,

That Jesus had opposition to His presence as being "of God" and well God's will to begin with.His very presence as one of authority may have well been a threat to them.Announcing He was indeed doing the Fathers WILL..was saying .."hey..I'm shooting to you strait..God loves you and is going to save you from youir sins".My thoughts..YOu? 



      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

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graceman
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I have been taught through the years to understand the soul of man in three parts (for lack of a better word).  Mind, will and emotions ('thinker, chooser, feeler' to my elementary mind).  Jesus, being a human, had a will...a chooser.  He HAD TO CHOOSE to do the will of God...to show God that He loved Him.  Because loving God was THE MOST IMPORTANT THING to do as far as...God's will...you know, to please Him. 

This is a juvenile (or maybe...infantile) view to me now.  Its as though God will be 'going ballistic' because we didn't 'CHOOSE' Him!  Sounds more like the relationship between myself and my parents; or many other 'authority figures' in this world (or like MY PARENTING towards my stepchildren).  It is understandable...but not godly.

My wife pointed out to me...she thought 'will' in this case could mean 'plan'.  Jesus came not to carry out a 'manly-man' plan...but the loving plan of His Father, through His life, death and resurrection.

Something else about will...somewhere in the bible it talks about God 'willing' in us to do what is pleasing to Him.  Glad for that!

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Connie
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Hey Chris,

The meaning of the word will brought to my mind one of inheritance.  As when a father dies and leaves a last will and testament.  If all goes traditionally, this ends in all of the father's possessions being passed on to the heirs. 

All that He has has been given to us.  That is His will also!



      

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Rest and Trust
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LibertyBelle78 wrote:
my question is:

does Jesus actually look upon our carnality or does he only view us in the spirit of life?

Was browsing this topic and a thought occurred to me from your question here, Tess.

John mentions that after Jesus arose from the dead that He continued to bear the marks of the crucifixion. I believe that the marks of the crucifixion might be our carnality that Jesus sees. When He looks at us He sees the Spirit of the Father working in us, through Him. 

  

 

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Chickenlips
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Paul wrote:

So as we now know no one according to flesh, but even if we have known Christ according to flesh, yet now we no longer know Him so. So that if any one is in Christ, that one is a new creature; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. And all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given to us the ministry of reconciliation; whereas God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and putting the word of reconciliation in us. Then we are ambassadors on behalf of Christ, as God exhorting through us, we beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For He has made Him who knew no sin, to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

(2 Corinthians 5:16-21)

I think I hear what you are saying Rest & Trust.  Regarding no one according to the flesh is much different that no one HAVING flesh.  I believe Christ sees our flesh (carnality) but He knows it is irrelevant.  He is USING it to more fully (experientiantially) conform us into the image of Christ.



      

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Chickenlips,

You bring up an interesting point and one I have wondered about at times.  I've heard both ways.  One is that it is completely covered by the blood of Christ and so God does not see it.  The other is that God knowing all things, would then know it.  Now thinking further here as I am typing... I'd have to additionally add in my more recent understanding of having died to all of that...  Any other thoughts?

Joyce

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The truest definition of the Greek word Sarx (Flesh) is "our humanity" --   It is literally the human body & soul.  It can best be defined as what living in this world has created in us.

Having flesh and being OF the flesh are two different things.  I have waste products in my colon, but that doesn't make me a piece of  crap!    I have crap in my humanity too, but that doesn't mean that I AM that garbage.  I am OF the essence (Spirit) of Christ. 

 

 



      

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luvin
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Hmmmm.



Edited by luvin on Jan-18-07 at 10:13am


      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

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LibertyBelle78
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Rest and Trust wrote:

I wonder if mankind offers one another the freedom to choose in the same way that God offered mankind the choice in the garden of Eden? It amazes me that God (like Mike said in another thread) allowed Himself to be vulnerable and the humility it would have required for God to create a being that could choose to be contrary to Himself. ...I would really enjoy hearing anyones thoughts and/or experiences.     



hmmmm... in times past, i would have been prone to believe God allowed himself to be vulnerable or that he created a being that could choose to be contrary. now, i perceive him of another realm, one that has not much to do with my so-called intellectual mind. today i'm less apt to believe God performed supernatural heroics in an attempt to appeal to my "strong" will. that kinda defies "sovereignty" in my little brain.

i don't know... the more i abandon my logic and simply rest like a child, just getting on with living, the more at peace i am. and the clearer i see the Father, in control of everything... the wind, the sea, the stars, ...and me.
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luvin
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Pretty neat Libertybell.

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

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Joyce
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LibertyBelle.... appreciated the simplicity with which you speak.  (Also, your poem of :   "the wind... the sea... the stars... and me".   That's so much better than my "Roses are red, Violets are blue" ones.)           

 

Rest andTrust wrote:

"I wonder if mankind offers the freedom to choose in the same way that God offered man the choice in the garden of Eden?"

My question would be were/are either "freedom to choose"?   If I have a choice, for instance, to choose between two products and one of them comes with a sales pitch with claims that are deceptive, but believable, so that that seems like the best one... then was it a choice made in complete freedom or a choice made under the bondage of deception?  That to me seems to describe the environment of the choice in the garden.

With regard to whether or not "mankind" offers freedom to choose...  perhaps there are instances where there are choices to choose in freedom between the tree of Life and the Knowledge one by mankind (don't know), but in general, at least in the mankind of religion, it seems that the only choice propagated is that of the knowledge of good and evil and that it is not offered as a choice, but as a given, as the teaching is all tangled up in it.

But where would pure freedom come in?  It seems that Christ, in His place in the Father would be totally free.  It seems as we are in Him, then that would be true of us as well.... and to the degree that it is described as "free indeed".... with Freedom living in us and flowing through our spiritual veins.

Joyce 



Edited by Joyce on Jan-17-07 at 11:27pm
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luvin
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Joyce are you possibly saying that  to be in Christ  is as being truly free to choose?Unless it sort of is another set of bondage-but in a good way ["slaves to riteousness>>"}?We are under the influence pretty much always I would think.

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

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Rest and Trust
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LibertyBelle78 wrote:

hmmmm... in times past, i would have been prone to believe God allowed himself to be vulnerable or that he created a being that could choose to be contrary. now, i perceive him of another realm, one that has not much to do with my so-called intellectual mind. today i'm less apt to believe God performed supernatural heroics in an attempt to appeal to my "strong" will. that kinda defies "sovereignty" in my little brain.

Jesus will always the only hero as far as I'm concerned. But one of the main reasons He is the only hero is the fact that He made the way for us to be His friend. You know, the type of friend that you can always sit down and enjoy being eye to eye with. Awesome thing about friendship with Him is that friendship with Him it is eye to eye with Him inside us.

Libertybelle78 wrote:
i don't know... the more i abandon my logic and simply rest like a child, just getting on with living, the more at peace i am. and the clearer i see the Father, in control of everything... the wind, the sea, the stars, ...and me.

There was a time in my life that I knew that I needed to abandong all the logic I had accumulated up-til then. I would have never believed that such freedom was possible as the freedom that resulted in the abandon of the old.

I hope you enjoy the ride.   

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Connie
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Hey Joe, You said:

There was a time in my life that I knew that I needed to abandong all the logic I had accumulated up-til then. I would have never believed that such freedom was possible as the freedom that resulted in the abandon of the old.

I hope you enjoy the ride.   

 

And I don't know if you meant exactly this but this is what I got out of it: The greatest and purest of freedom was when we actually came to the point of and then actually "chose" Christ.  Until that point we had no idea what we were missing, only knew that we missed something.  To be able to even think there was an alternative to the deathly living we were in would be the life and freedom having its way in us and then stepping us on over into His realm.  After that monumental experience, freedom would reign because it was the cause of the point of entering in.   (If that made sense)

In other words I was given freedom to call my dead life a dead life.  (how's that for an oxymoron?) But you know, in retrospect, I couldn't even do that, He had to get me through it and see it the truth of it all later.



Edited by Connie on Jan-18-07 at 11:22am


      

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Rest and Trust
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Joyce wrote:
My question would be were/are either "freedom to choose"?   If I have a choice, for instance, to choose between two products and one of them comes with a sales pitch with claims that are deceptive, but believable, so that that seems like the best one... then was it a choice made in complete freedom or a choice made under the bondage of deception?  That to me seems to describe the environment of the choice in the garden.

With regard to whether or not "mankind" offers freedom to choose...  perhaps there are instances where there are choices to choose in freedom between the tree of Life and the Knowledge one by mankind (don't know), but in general, at least in the mankind of religion, it seems that the only choice propagated is that of the knowledge of good and evil and that it is not offered as a choice, but as a given, as the teaching is all tangled up in it.

Paul, somewhere in the N.T. epistles, says something about Eve being deceived but then he points-out that Adam actually transgressed when he made the choice to eat of the knowledge tree. I took from what Paul was saying to mean- that Adam actually knew what he was choosing to whatever degree he could know.   

Just a side-note- I sense that there is something to this that is important for me to understand right now. I would guess that having a greater understanding of this might have something to do with our three teenagers who are faced with a vast many choices or roads to travel in their lives. With greater understanding of how the Spirit leads I am able to encourage those that are influenced by me.                 

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