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Biblical Interpretation
 Shovel Shack : Biblical Interpretation
Subject Topic: BROKEN & CONTRITE HEART/SPIRIT
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Dignz
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Posted: Jun-08-10 at 5:03am | IP Logged  

WHAT'S IT ALL ABOUT  ????




      

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luvin
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of course to me, it was about breaking BEFORE I was broken. A normal reaction to the usual cycle of pain and evil while here on earth and viewing as if God were sending it to me to break me. I guess now I just see it as another time of revelation to see this too does not separate me from Christ. While the outer difficulty is tough, the encouragement and confidence is deep inner peace as I begin to rely on Him in a way I had not even thought of before.

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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mcdave
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    Did a yahoo search for "broken and contrite spirit" and find most of the references,teaching,links,etc.. point to an old testament mindset that is usually tied together with some form of sacrificial offering .
    this to me is the polar opposite of our life in Christ , looking at Him as the one who was broken FOR US. instead of us trying to bring a sacrifice that will be accepted,HE was our sacrifice and in him we no longer have to live in the "i hope i have done enough" mindset but can rest in the "he has done all, one time, for all time" mindset.


Edited by mcdave on Jun-08-10 at 4:33pm


      

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mary
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Posted: Jun-08-10 at 8:36pm | IP Logged  

 

        Yep!



      

Mary
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gregoryfl
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mcdave wrote:
    Did a yahoo search for "broken and contrite spirit" and find most of the references,teaching,links,etc.. point to an old testament mindset that is usually tied together with some form of sacrificial offering .
    this to me is the polar opposite of our life in Christ , looking at Him as the one who was broken FOR US. instead of us trying to bring a sacrifice that will be accepted,HE was our sacrifice and in him we no longer have to live in the "i hope i have done enough" mindset but can rest in the "he has done all, one time, for all time" mindset.
I definitely agree Dave. I just did a teaching on that, so is awesome to read your thoughts in confirmation of what HE has done and made us to be in Him. If you wanted to check it out, its here:

http://www.screentoaster.com

just do a search for gregoryfl, and the teaching is concerning the Hebrew words Offer, and Offering.


      

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Tim P
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gregoryfl wrote:
 
I just did a teaching on that, so is awesome to read your thoughts in confirmation of what HE has done and made us to be in Him. If you wanted to check it out, its here:

http://www.screentoaster.com

just do a search for gregoryfl, and the teaching is concerning the Hebrew words Offer, and Offering.
[/QUOTE]

I viewed and appreciated this, Ron.
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Dignz
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that was absolutely deLICIOUS, mcdave!  yyyyyyUMMMMMM!!      thank you so much!  so encouraging and energizing! 

ron, thank you so much for your encouragement as well, from a language perspective.    i love that part especially about being brought near by the blood of christ - the perfect sacrifice - who himself presents us without blemish, without spot, set apart, completely acceptable/accepted, etc. 

jesus fulfilled what the shadows and less perfect representations could never fulfill.  yet they were accepted until he who was the more perfect sacrifice would come ~ jesus.   thank god in christ jesus that he was the end to the need of sacrifices to be brought near to god!  :)

i enjoyed that little hiccup, too  ... herd/flock = flerd 




      

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gregoryfl
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Thanks Tim and Sher :) Hiccup? Who, me? I never hiccup, but I can give a pretty mean belch 

      

What do you see when you look at me? Not the visible me that your eyes can see. For in Christ I am dead, yet alive and free. Free to be it all, as he lives in me.
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mary
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    I still want to read it, just haven't gotten to it yet!



      

Mary
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the shovel
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Posted: Jun-09-10 at 7:13pm | IP Logged  

Regarding a broken and contrite heart, I was criticized years ago by a pastor for being "too up". I was told that I needed more brokenness in my life. The man later recanted after reconsidering his assumptions based on an outward judgment. And isn't appearance based judgment exactly what it's all about? People want proof according to a fleshly criteria. I see it everywhere I turn, for it is being demanded of me from all sides to conform to the accepted - but ever changing - rules and standards.

Jim


      

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gregoryfl
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Posted: Jun-09-10 at 8:57pm | IP Logged  

Hehe, and you know what Jim? I have been criticized for being "too serious." I know I come across like a goofball here sometimes, but generally I have a serious demeanor about me. It's just my personality. I could find myself wishing I could be "more like" someone like yourself (and I have gone down that road) but really, just as you say, no matter what you do, a fleshly view of someone will never be reality, but always different, sometimes even with the same person. I pretty much get along with all types, and have been asked how I can do that. I just tell them that I see them with different eyes, beyond whatever "behavior" they are showing me. It is only then that I can truly see, and truly care.

Ron


      

What do you see when you look at me? Not the visible me that your eyes can see. For in Christ I am dead, yet alive and free. Free to be it all, as he lives in me.
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Dignz
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Posted: Jun-09-10 at 10:15pm | IP Logged  

too up, too down, too serious, too insecure, too confident, too dramatic, too this, too that, too too too too.

how about the good ol' :  too much christ ... too much grace .... too much ... dot dot dot ... fill in the blank.

the mind and reasoning of the world can not ever be satisfied.  thank god we have a new mind.  that new mind who is content and pleased with us as the new that we are ... always new.  :)

enjoyed very much what you had to say jim ...  assumptions based on outward appearances and therefore judged and condemned accordingly. 

the world does that assuming and concluding without christ.  how is religious christianity any different in its living and daily function?  how is 'christianity' any different when it adapts to and adopts the same reasoning as the world?  it validates and justifies itself by supposedly having 'god' on its side, so is assumed to be  more 'right' than the world, even tho' in reality ... it is the same ol' reasoning without christ.







      

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the shovel
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Posted: Jun-10-10 at 3:31am | IP Logged  

gregoryfl wrote:
Hehe, and you know what Jim? I have been criticized for being "too serious." I know I come across like a goofball here sometimes, but generally I have a serious demeanor about me. It's just my personality. I could find myself wishing I could be "more like" someone like yourself (and I have gone down that road) but really, just as you say, no matter what you do, a fleshly view of someone will never be reality, but always different, sometimes even with the same person. I pretty much get along with all types, and have been asked how I can do that. I just tell them that I see them with different eyes, beyond whatever "behavior" they are showing me. It is only then that I can truly see, and truly care.

Ron


Yes, to see with different eyes, that is the secret we have in Christ! :)

Jim


      

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the shovel
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Dignz wrote:
too up, too down, too serious, too insecure, too confident, too dramatic, too this, too that, too too too too.

how about the good ol' :  too much christ ... too much grace .... too much ... dot dot dot ... fill in the blank.

the mind and reasoning of the world can not ever be satisfied.  thank god we have a new mind.  that new mind who is content and pleased with us as the new that we are ... always new.  :)

enjoyed very much what you had to say jim ...  assumptions based on outward appearances and therefore judged and condemned accordingly. 

the world does that assuming and concluding without christ.  how is religious christianity any different in its living and daily function?  how is 'christianity' any different when it adapts to and adopts the same reasoning as the world?  it validates and justifies itself by supposedly having 'god' on its side, so is assumed to be  more 'right' than the world, even tho' in reality ... it is the same ol' reasoning without christ.



That is so true. Religious christianity is no different from the world at all, is it?

Jim :)


      

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luvin
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Posted: Jun-10-10 at 8:26am | IP Logged  

Jim, I know it is a one liner and probably doesn't make sense to many people, but for me..could you make- your statement above a Shack Quote?!!!

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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Dignz
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i am thinking that religious christianity is like another gospel which is not the gospel at all, which means it is not really christianity (in the truest of sense) at all.

 


      

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luvin
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Posted: Jun-10-10 at 10:03am | IP Logged  

yes I have always thought that in some form or another Sher. Great point!

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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mary
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Posted: Jun-10-10 at 10:08am | IP Logged  

Dignz wrote:

the world does that assuming and concluding without christ.  how is religious christianity any different in its living and daily function?  how is 'christianity' any different when it adapts to and adopts the same reasoning as the world?  it validates and justifies itself by supposedly having 'god' on its side, so is assumed to be  more 'right' than the world, even tho' in reality ... it is the same ol' reasoning without christ.





     TRUE, SHERRI!  MOST EMPHATICALLY TRUE!



      

Mary
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mcdave
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Dignz wrote:
too up, too down, too serious, too insecure, too confident, too dramatic, too this, too that, too too too too.

how about the good ol' :  too much christ ... too much grace .... too much ... dot dot dot ... fill in the blank.







 Hmmm ok...   too much Christ... too much love,  too much grace...too much peace, too much... dot dot dot, too much JOY

Now,THAT is an institution i can get behind.Christ in us, our hope and life


Edited by mcdave on Jun-10-10 at 7:47pm


      

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Dignz
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that was great mcdave!   



Edited by Dignz on Jun-10-10 at 8:47pm


      

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luvin
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Posted: Jun-10-10 at 9:33pm | IP Logged  

Yeah that contrast struck me too Dave. Sherri, wonderfully said! Though we say it in different ways..we think so similar!!


      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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the shovel
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Posted: Jun-11-10 at 5:20am | IP Logged  

This is an encouraging word, my friends! :)

Jim


      

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mary
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Posted: Jun-11-10 at 8:51am | IP Logged  

    Amen!

    



      

Mary
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Tommy Gregg
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Blessings! It's been a while since I have had time to visit the Shack. There is a profound beauty in brokenness isn't there?! A friend shared with me this thought: Jesus was not ashamed to show Thomas His scars, for they tell a resurrection story! "Let this mind be in me" (and He is), and so my scars tell a beautiful story!

"Do not be like the hypocrites with a sad countenance" (Matthew 6:16).

Gregg :)

      

God called me through His grace for only one reason: to reveal His Son in me (Galatians 1:15-16).
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gregoryfl
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Thanks for that Gregg :) Scars of beauty, beauty for ashes. How God confounds the wiSHdom of the world with his true wisdom.




      

What do you see when you look at me? Not the visible me that your eyes can see. For in Christ I am dead, yet alive and free. Free to be it all, as he lives in me.
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Broken Link
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I was also googling "broken heart contrite spirit"
to remember where I had read it in scripture. Well,
a lot of LDS links came up. Go figure, it was all
the stuff about forgiveness doctrines. Anyways, the
reference I remember was from Psalm 51.

Funny, how one scripture gets turned into doctrine.
I mean, this was the "man after God's own heart" and
if he says that the sacrifice to please God is a
broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart, well
then that is certainly what must be required, right?
Only there's this little footnote, in the NIV of
all versions, that says the alternate translation is
something like, "My sacrifice, O God,..."

Oh, so this is what David was offering up. Well, if
I remember the story, David was "motivated" to a
broken spirit during the period he was trying to
bargain with God for his child's life. So, even his
broken heart and contrite spirit were not acceptable
to motivate God to do what David wanted.

And this is pretty much what I remember that
doctrine provides, a bunch of hand-wringing, chest-
beating prayers that never seem to accomplish what
we want them to.

edit: misplaced a comma

Edited by Broken Link on Jun-12-10 at 12:50pm


      

Bill
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the shovel
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Posted: Jun-12-10 at 2:54pm | IP Logged  

Bill, excellent insights. I love it.

PS, I hope you are doing well overseas.


      

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mary
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Posted: Jun-12-10 at 4:14pm | IP Logged  

 

    Me too, Bill!    (and that is pretty much what I remember about those prayers, too! )



      

Mary
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Dignz
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it seems the broken spirit/contrite heart thing a.k.a. 'brokeness' ... is used a lot to lay heaviness upon people ... and it is taught as 'humility' and/or 'humbleness' .... mixed in with a lot of guilt, toss in some fear, and don't forget the shame.  perhaps there is a heavy pride in religious 'humility' ... like with the pharisees.

if it is true that christ is our life, wholey and completely, because he has done everything necessary to make it so, then that pretty much blows any pride of flesh 'cuz it has nothing to do with the life of christ.  so any 'humility' conjured up by the flesh is pure futility ... a kind of trying to get god's attention by proving to him how broken and humble we can be 'for him', so we may get some extra brownie points or something.

i can actually remember the attitudes in the 'church' when people would be suffering one thing or another and would get one of two reactions/responses: 

one - pats on the back so to speak for 'suffering for christ', praises and encouragement that they would get an extra jewel in their crown one day, etc.
two - poo-pooed, judged, condemned, lectured, etc. 'cuz they hadn't been faithful enough, prayed enough, witnessed enough, dot dot dot ... fill in the blank ... according to whatever outward appearances convinced them to fickly judge by.

no, i do not make light of 'suffering'.  not in the least.     and no, i do not have any lack of respect for it.   i am talking about the mind of the flesh and how it is so desparate to have a validation for itself, especially in the midst of suffering.  and how the mind of the flesh is in bondage to compare and compete itself with more flesh, etc.  does that make any sense ... that wording?  i kind of know in my mind what i mean, but i am having a bit of a challenge phrasing it, explaining it, etc.  sheeeesh, i am probably coming across like a real hard nose or something, but that is not my intention.  

so what is my 'intention' ... hmmm ... i dunno.      just tossing out thoughts stirred from these wonderful posts.  i think i will go while my thoughts are still stirring about.  maybe more clarity will come.  for now ... i was just thinking how the words humility, humbleness, brokeness, contrite hearts/spirits, suffering, etc. ... they seem to all be tossed in together and used in various combinations and/or all by themselves by those who try to lord over us with their religious 'gaaawod'. (drawn out 'spiritual' pronunciation of the word 'god') <- i tried     ... being silly.

christ himself is our humility ... that is plenty offensive enough to the mind of the flesh ... to the world.  that is what pops to mind for the moment.

oh yeah .... before i forget .... bill, i had looked up verses and it seems most all of them were old testament and had to do with the law.  but honestly, i didn't spend as much time checking them out as i would like.  maybe later ... if life and time allows that much concentration.  ha!  i just love hearing from you guyz! 




      

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Broken Link
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The idea of a broken spirit/contrite heart, in the
doctrine of forgiveness that I grew up with, is that
if you are remorseful enough, then God will forgive
you. That isn't how it worked for David. When his
child with Bathsheba died, David stopped fasting and
whatever he was doing to prove to God how sorry he
was.

It was a misunderstanding from this story, and the
Psalm, that this is the recipe of how to get
forgiveness from God, ignoring the fact that David
didn't receive forgiveness in this way. It all buys
into the sinner mentality, and if we're all sinners
then there shouldn't be a reason to be "upbeat". It
also leads to the misunderstanding that consequences
are punishments from God that happen here on earth
for things we do, a doctrine of double jeopardy. If
God punishes us here, then where is the forgiveness
and salvation from Christ?!


      

Bill
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Dignz
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enjoyed and appreciate that very much bill.     thank you.     so very well expressed!  great clarity!  loved it!  

by the way ... sending you hugs from jim and i way down here in south florida to waaaay over the seas to where you currently and presently find yourself.        




      

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Debi
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Debi
"Truth is not the sum total of all true things, but is instead a person & His name is Jesus & He has become our LIFE."
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Dignz
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Posted: Jun-15-10 at 9:43pm | IP Logged  

Debi ~ "Truth is not the sum total of all true things, but is instead a person — and His name is Jesus."

indeed!  those are wonderful words from his life! 




      

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Debi
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Posted: Jun-15-10 at 9:46pm | IP Logged  

Enjoying everyone's insight and comments.

I remember it being implied in the IC that we were supposed to make ourselves humble and I guess broken too-seems like such a ridiculous thought now with understanding Christ as my Life. I can't even remember how we were supposed to be able to do this???

We have a broken and contrite heart now because we have a new heart-His.


      

Debi
"Truth is not the sum total of all true things, but is instead a person & His name is Jesus & He has become our LIFE."
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Debi
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Posted: Jun-15-10 at 10:12pm | IP Logged  

Yes Sherri wonderful words; those words should sound familiar-Jim used them somewhere in his writing and I having been using them in my signature. (Hope that is OK)

      

Debi
"Truth is not the sum total of all true things, but is instead a person & His name is Jesus & He has become our LIFE."
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Dignz
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Posted: Jun-15-10 at 11:30pm | IP Logged  

definitely okay!  

those words have helped to transform so much of my thinking over the years!  words of FREEDOM!  words of RELIEF!  words of LIFE!  words to AWAKEN! 

i could go on, but ...




      

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the shovel
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Posted: Jun-16-10 at 3:30pm | IP Logged  

Debi wrote:
Yes Sherri wonderful words; those words should sound familiar-Jim used them somewhere in his writing and I having been using them in my signature. (Hope that is OK)


I agree .... it is definitely okay!

Hello my dear Debi, it's good to see you here. :)

Jim


Edited by the shovel on Jun-16-10 at 3:31pm


      

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