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Real Life in Christ
 Shovel Shack : Real Life in Christ
Subject Topic: Is Jesus just History?
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robpison
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Posted: Jan-18-11 at 5:15am | IP Logged  

We might as well face it, some people have the spiritual maturity of a peanut. So when you deal with such people, you have to come up with more than Faith. They just don't understand it. However, there is something that everyone will agree on and that is Thought. And if God is Absolute Thought for the faithfull, plain thought is still something the wordly man respects.
Religion gets its justification from thinking consciousness, not from piety of the naive kind or any irrational belief arising from ignorance or fear.

In faith the true content is certainly already found, but there is still wanting to it the form of thought. All forms such as feeling, popular ideas, and such like, may certainly have the form of truth, but they themselves are not the true form which makes the true content necessary. Thought is the absolute judge before which the content must verify and attest its claims.

This book is interesting in that it is an attempt to simplify the mind blowing work of Hegel on rationalizing religion. After reading it, you will have a good idea of the evolution of Religion and Spirit through history; which is quite a powerful advantage when you start debating.

Click here to see and download the book

Edited by robpison on Feb-22-11 at 1:55pm


      

Evil is the abscence of GOOD.
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Dignz
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Posted: Jan-18-11 at 9:08am | IP Logged  

personally, i am not really all that interested in reading about religion any more, much less 'debating' it.    once in a great while i may have a specific curious question about some particular aspect of a particular one for some silly reason or another, but ... that becomes more rare for me all the time. 

jesus is merely history for some, and denied even that by many.  jesus is life only to those who actually have his life.  and that reality is a miracle, not a religion or a debate to be fought and won.




Edited by Dignz on Jan-18-11 at 9:12am


      

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ShannonC
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Posted: Jan-18-11 at 9:20am | IP Logged  

Dignz wrote:

jesus is merely history for some, and denied even that by many.  jesus is life only to those who actually have his life.  and that reality is a miracle, not a religion or a debate to be fought and won.


Love it



      

ShannonC
HE IS SO GOOD!
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Dignz
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Posted: Jan-18-11 at 9:50am | IP Logged  

i apologize for my quick reaction in my first original post.  another reason for me to read and then walk away and ponder before i share my quick reactions!   i deleted my original bit of sarcasm.     

dealing with people with peanut sized spiritual mentalities ... needing to come up with more than 'faith' to communicate with them ...  religion being 'justified' by a thinking consciousness, not a naive piousness, or irrational belief resulting from fear and/or ignorance.  all very interesting statements.  i may or may not expand on that later, but for now i will move on ...

"In faith the true content is certainly already found, but there is still wanting to it the form of thought. All forms such as feeling, popular ideas, and such like, may certainly have the form of truth, but they themselves are not the true form which makes the true content necessary. Thought is the absolute judge before which the content must verify and attest its claims."  <robpison

for me, the true content of my faith is christ himself.  therefore any form of thought involved in his faith which is my faith, is all that concerns him in me, me in him, and all who are found together in him.  the absolute judge is god himself, and if he cares to verify or attest himself, then he certainly does ... hardly ever to the satisfaction of man and his thinking, i might add. 

actually, in truth, god is verified and attested to in his son jesus christ, and now in all who are found in him.  before he took on flesh in the form of jesus christ, there was his creation, including man.  we see what man's form of thought thought about that and how it continues to think and reason all the way to this very day. 

rationalizing religion - that isn't really something that i want to spend my time and energy doing anymore.  christ for me is the end of that.  in my current way of conscious thinking,  i can communicate jesus christ in whatever way the spirit of christ in me so compels.  if the spirit gives life to receive that communication, then there is the miracle.  if life to receive it is not there, then it is not there.  the best i can describe it is a kind of miraculous simultaneous re-birth and acceptance.

but really, i might be totally missing what you are trying to get at here.  would you mind explaining what you mean by all that you shared and why you are posting it here.  do you just want to promote the book to have some discussion about here?  that could be the obvious, i know, but .... for whatever reason, my mind is prone to not always trust the obvious. 


      

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the shovel
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Posted: Jan-20-11 at 3:14pm | IP Logged  

Sherri, as usual you get right to the heart of that which is important to us on the Shack: Christ. I really appreciate how you do that. :)

Of course, I suspect that the new guy mainly came on to post this in order to get a link, as he hasn't returned to follow up. I did a quick search a couple days ago and found the exact same post on another totally dissimilar website (posted the day before this one). Anyhow, I am glad for what it stirred up in you. :)

Jim


      

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luvin
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Posted: Jan-20-11 at 3:27pm | IP Logged  

I checked out his webpage and it is a tutorial on the
above subject matter.

But still, I for one welcome him to hang out if he
should desire it.

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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robpison
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Posted: Jan-21-11 at 7:00am | IP Logged  

Dignz wrote:
God is verified and attested to in his son Jesus Christ.

This is exactly the core of this book. How the Notion (the "capacity" in Spirit, its Absolute Truth) revealed Itself for the first time to man's self-consciousness. Yes, Dignz, Christ is the moment of Creation when God reveals at last the Truth. Before that God was an abstraction to man. You have abstraction of that sort, an incomplete notion, through the history of religion. Osiris or Mithra were gods that took the form of man, died (on the cross for Mithra) and resurrected. But this was still an abstraction and a rudimentary notion.

By the way, this book is aplogetics as well. In the sense that it is the best way to fight the god killers on their own turf, namely with reason. When some irreligionist tells me that there was Eucharist in the time of Bacchus; I say "so what? - imperfect notion - period."

So there are three things in all this:
- The first one is to fight the irreligionists, rationally, and God knows that they are legions and that they use the media (TV, movie, commercial) and educational institutions to convey that our Faith is pure crap, because these things existed before the Advent.
- The second is to show the believers of all kind where their Religion really stands as far as the Notion is concerned; rationally again.
- The third is to show the believers in the true Absolute religion, namely the Christians, that Christ is a just a moment and that Spirit is what should rule.

This is why I say Jesus is History and I do not mean to understate Him; I just mean that Christ is just a moment in the great plan of God. God, as you said, verified Himself in Jesus and now that should be just obvious for us, people of Faith.
As for the message of Christ, it is very clear indeed. It sums up to 25, A4 pages (Times new roman 12;) and that includes 4 gospels; which means redundancy. The message is evident, apart from the parables. So I don't understand how people (I am not speaking of you) can still wonder, for instance, how they can be saved!?!? It is written, plain simple. Period; no comment!
What Christ (not Paul, not Peter, not anyone else) but CHRIST said is PLAIN WRITTEN SIMPLE!
"Leave your parents, your kids, sell everything, give it to the poor (the POOR, not the "church" and EVERYTHING, He said), take your cross and follow me."
SIMPLE! SIMPLE! SIMPLE!
No Comments!
That is just one example.
Now, how far are you from that? This is all we should hear about, when we talk about Christ. How far are we from the message? the SIMPLE and straightforward message.

Now, let's talk about the Spirit of reconciliation.
For you say "Christ for me is the end of that," but He is not.

And Hegel to say:
"Spirit is infinite return into self, infinite subjectivity.
It is neither the substantial potentiality of the Father, nor the True in the objective or antithetical form of the Son, but the subjective Present and Real.
This is the Spirit of God, or God as present, real Spirit, God dwelling in His Church."

The Spirit of reconciliation.

Hegel even add:
"The violation of absolute truth, of the Idea of that union of the two sides of the infinite antithesis, is in these words declared to be the supreme transgression."

The blasphemy against the Spirit.
Is that it?

So long Dignz.
Your spiritual maturity is far from being a peanut one ;)







Edited by robpison on Feb-06-11 at 2:08pm


      

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Dignz
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Posted: Jan-21-11 at 1:14pm | IP Logged  

"rationalizing religion - that isn't really something that i want to spend my time and energy doing anymore.  christ for me is the end of that." <dignz

"Now, let's talk about the Spirit of reconciliation.  For you say "Christ for me is the end of that," but He is not. <rob

well, you can disagree with me for sure, but i will state again that for me and in the reality of god in christ jesus, christ is indeed the end of any need to rationalize or have anything at all to do with religion, and the end of that which was once my identity in the world to try to reconcile myself to god.  

without the spirit of god, he is in truth a mere abstraction to man and always will be, without the spirit of god.  i hold that the spirit of reconciliation is a miracle from god himself.  one is not able to reconcile himself to god by: "Leave your parents, your kids, sell everything, give it to the poor (the POOR, not the "church" and EVERYTHING, He said), take your cross and follow me."

i guess you are referring to mark 10:26-27.  there is more to that story of course.   26And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved? 27And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

the story is also told by matthew in chapter 19.  i believe the context of the whole is to be understood, not just a couple of verses taken out of context, which perhaps, in my opinion has been done in what you wrote.  the person whom jesus was speaking to was making claims to have kept the law from birth and wanted to know what else he must do to be perfect enough to enter the kingdom of heaven.  he was fooling himself.  jesus challenged his claim.  if a person could have kept the whole law, then there would be no need for jesus to have come and died for that which man fell short of because of sin.

the simple, straight-forward message is the saving grace of god for man found only in and because-of jesus christ alone.  not in man's futile efforts to keep the law, which is impossible.  to quote the apostle paul ... "but god..."  therefore man must actually be born-of and have the very spirit OF GOD.  he can not rely upon his own self to gain or attain to that which is impossible to be reconciled to god with ... the law. (i did not word that in a very clear way, but it is the best i can do right now.)

blasphemy of the spirit is that 'spirit' which makes claims to have gained the spirit of god by the efforts of flesh, and not by jesus christ himself who came and accomplished once and for all what was necessary .. that which man could never accomplish for himself, nor by himself.

i have to admit to you that the wording of your posts is a little too 'academic' and 'intellectual' for my aging ol' brain.    i find that i must read and re-read and look up words to find their meanings, etc.    that is not a bad thing really ... just maybe more of a time-consuming one.  so, i apologize for missing some of what you may be trying to communicate.

you asked: "how far are you from that?"  leaving parents, kids, selling everything, give to the poor etc.  in christ, this is no longer an issue.  it was once a law issue that could not and would not ever be fulfilled by man, until the man jesus came from god, as god in man, the perfect man, the god-man.  in christ we have become the new creation ... we have the very spirit of the living god ... the law was fulfilled in christ and is now and forever more, by his spirit, fulfilled in us.

that is all i can type on this for now ....




      

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Mercy Man
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Posted: Jan-21-11 at 10:06pm | IP Logged  

Sorry, but for me, any points for a rational basis
of faith in Christ are opposed by equally rational
counterpoints. To me, it only works when you are
preaching to the converted, dealing with people who
don't know the counterpoints very well, or are able
to shout down your opponents.

Jesus said... How do you know that's actually what
Jesus said? Paul said... How much weight can you
really attach to the philosophy of some guy who has
a 2,000 year old world view? The apostles laid down
their lives for the gospel, so it must be true?...
Don't suicide bombers sacrifice their own lives (and
others no doubt)for their cause? Does that make it
true, too? And so on ad nauseum.

Personally, I can make no claim for a rational basis
of faith. All I can claim about what I see with the
eye of faith concerning faith is that faith in
Christ and the eye to see it is of Christ. He
initiated it, and will keep it until that Day,
whenever that Day is, and whatever that Day means.

Works for me anywho.   

      

He has made us Accepted in the Beloved
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Nette
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Posted: Jan-22-11 at 1:22am | IP Logged  

You guys Just never cease to amaze me...I can drop in anytime and you all are still just LOVING! I love you guys!

      

"A Woman's Heart should be so lost in God that a man needs to seek Him in order to find her."
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the shovel
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Posted: Jan-22-11 at 6:01am | IP Logged  

Mercy Man wrote:
Personally, I can make no claim for a rational basis of faith. All I can claim about what I see with the eye of faith concerning faith is that faith in Christ and the eye to see it is of Christ. He initiated it, and will keep it until that Day, whenever that Day is, and whatever that Day means.


Hello dear Mercy Man!

It is so good to see you pop in again with such a refreshing recognition of the miraculous nature of God's wisdom! We can argue and reason along with the natural mind, but it is this very mind that runs contrary to the mind of Christ, who is the wisdom of God. I may agree with many of the points made, but the accumulation of those points can just as easily, if not more so, establish just another system of validation by which I might prove my faith. Thanks again!

Jim


      

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the shovel
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Posted: Jan-22-11 at 6:04am | IP Logged  

Nette wrote:
You guys Just never cease to amaze me...I can drop in anytime and you all are still just LOVING! I love you guys!


Hello dear Nette!

It's been way too long. I've missed you. By the way, did you try to send something to me on theshovel.net? I'm pretty sure I saw something in the temporary logs early one morning, but by time I had gone back to follow up, it was gone.

Love, Jim :)


      

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the shovel
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Posted: Jan-22-11 at 8:13am | IP Logged  

Hello Rob :)

Thanks for popping back in after your initial post. As I had stated, I didn't think we see you again. Having dealt with websites for over a decade now, I have come across so many drive-by postings and questions that never get a follow-up response that I lumped you in with the others. I hope you don't take it personally. :)

I surely understand the rational and apologetics approaches, as I once studied many of the same things. I mean, I still appreciate learning how the religious mind of man keeps doing the same old things for millenia. If it wasn't for fear, we would hear a witness of God even in the workings of the universal religious mind — which is the same mind that operates in those who hold themselves as irreligious — over the course of history. When it all boils down, all I can hear anymore are the constant attempts of man to justify himself in whatever form he holds to. It underlies every argument of man.

Jim


      

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Nette
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Posted: Jan-22-11 at 7:08pm | IP Logged  

the shovel wrote:
Nette wrote:
You guys Just never cease to amaze me...I can drop in anytime and you all are still just LOVING! I love you guys!


Hello dear Nette!

It's been way too long. I've missed you. By the way, did you try to send something to me on theshovel.net? I'm pretty sure I saw something in the temporary logs early one morning, but by time I had gone back to follow up, it was gone.

Love, Jim :)

 

Thank you Jim, I've missed you guys as well...And yes I sent you an email awhile back because I was unable to login..Not to worry my friend, I just came back, tried again, and tada! Hope You all are doing well...

Love you all, Nette 



      

"A Woman's Heart should be so lost in God that a man needs to seek Him in order to find her."
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luvin
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Posted: Jan-23-11 at 10:53am | IP Logged  

Nette and Mercy! Great to see ya both!

Nette thanks SO much for the return PM's!!!

Adam

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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Dignz
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Posted: Jan-23-11 at 11:35am | IP Logged  

"We can argue and reason along with the natural mind, but it is this very mind that runs contrary to the mind of Christ, who is the wisdom of God." <jim

i LOVE that!    so true.  the natural mind will not agree with god as it is NOT ABLE to.  the spirit of god agrees with the spirit of god.  man must be born again.

"All I can claim about what I see with the eye of faith concerning faith is that faith in Christ and the eye to see it is of Christ."
<mercy man

i hear ya, bro.  an absolute miracle to be sure.  the natural mind denies miracles even when they are right in front of it!   

"When it all boils down, all I can hear anymore are the constant attempts of man to justify himself in whatever form he holds to. It underlies every argument of man."  <jim

wow ... i enjoyed that, too!  argument of man/attempts to justify  ...  that tends to scream LAW to me.  by the law NO MAN shall be justified before GOD.  therefore we can conclude that man's attempts to justify and validate himself are always for the sake of convincing the natural mind of man, whether for his own self or to answer to another's ... that which he is bound to without the new miraculous birth of, with, by and from the very spirit of god himself.  in other words, man justifies and validates himself to and for other men.  that is life in the world of the natural mind of man.  it is a bondage to be sure. 

however, in christ jesus, we have been and are forever more justified and validated in the very presence of god himself.  we are NOT so with the natural mind of man, nor will we ever be.  such a claim is absolute enmity and infuriation before the mind of man. 

"...the best way to fight the god killers on their own turf, namely with reason." <rob

personally, i have discovered that to be an exercise in absolute futility.  i do not deny however that the spirit of god gives life in the midst of and despite any of the various efforts man attempts to reason with the mind of the natural.  that is where the miracle of god in man can be found ... despite and in the midst of.  the life of god is often born in the midst of the most unexpected circumstances and situations.  the birth of god in man is always a miracle!    we are just very often mistakenly convinced that the life of god was born in someone because of something we did that we can formulate, practice at and succeed at over and over again ... attempting to reproduce the same experience over and over again.   nevertheless, i do not deny that even in the midst of that and despite that, that the life of god can be born.  i only want to always remember where that life is sourced and how ... miraculously from the spirit of god himself.

so, in saying all that, i think that i am seeing a little more clearly what the apostle paul was getting at when he was in the midst of
imprisonment and being tortured for preaching the good news of jesus christ.  i think i remember that at some point he talked about something to the effect of him not really caring what motivated others to preach the gospel as long as the gospel was preached.  i could be mistaken, but i think he said that even realizing that the more others preached the gospel, the more he and his influence was blamed for it, and the more it was taken out on with more torture, mistreatment and longer imprisonment.    something like that?   please feel free to correct my memory and perception on that matter. 

another thing you said rob ... i am not sure what you meant, but i did have thoughts come to me concerning it.  maybe you can clarify so i understand you better, but ... it was something about christ just being a moment and a temporary purpose of god, but that the spirit of god should rule.  i think the man jesus who was the very spirit of god in man, was only temporary in the fleshly body sense, but jesus christ himself claimed to be ETERNAL LIFE.  that eternal life was in the temporary body of a man.  that eternal life is in many temporary bodies of mankind to this very day.

the father and the son are one, as all who are in the spirit of god are also one ... a miraculous union that really can not be explained with, by or to the natural mind of man.  true miracles by their very nature can not be explained.  true miracles are in the domain of god himself.  if they could be explained and understood, then man could formulate, manufacture, market and replicate them ... be in control of them.  i could be wrong about that 'view' as well, but it is where i am at in my understanding presently. 

i do hope you will return, rob and continue some people to people dialogue and communication. 

mercy man and nette ... so very good to see you pop-in and to 'read' you!     long time no see/no read.    the 'sha' and adam ...   warm hugs all around 







      

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Debi
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I really liked this Sherri, it is so true:
the spirit of god gives life in the midst of and despite any of the various efforts man attempts to reason with the mind of the natural.  that is where the miracle of god in man can be found ... despite and in the midst of.

I also was reading lately on the shovel and remember Jim commenting that logic battles were "a weapon of the flesh." The battle over "whatever", never gets resolved logically.

Someone I know sent me this from some guy's book-an argument for his viewpoint.

"The _______doctrine which shapes the persons understanding of God's character will eventuate in a false understanding of God's nature which will in turn result in a slow, shriveling transmogrification of ones relationship with God from one of vibrant life to one devoid of Spirit or Truth, absent the life-giving flow that comes from a right perception of the Creator of the Universe and leave you simple a dead husk built of theory, academic argument, and self-righteousness, held together only by the glue of pride in and dependence upon one's own understanding."

What can I say? So sad that doctrine can be thought to be able to drain the LIFE from us.

Jim's statement, "We can argue and reason along with the natural mind, but it is this very mind that runs contrary to the mind of Christ, who is the wisdom of God", reminded me what a horrible place it was trying to figure out the "right" answers and then prove I was "right".

And like Mercy man said: any points for a rational basis of faith in Christ are opposed by equally rational counterpoints. To me, it only works when you are preaching to the converted, dealing with people who don't know the counterpoints very well, or are able to shout down your opponents. (yes have experienced that)

Hey, we have been made right-no longer living from the tree of the knowledge of right and wrong but from the tree of LIFE


      

Debi
"Truth is not the sum total of all true things, but is instead a person & His name is Jesus & He has become our LIFE."
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HarryTick
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Posted: Jan-25-11 at 9:10am | IP Logged  

Mercy Man,

Amen! I find the fact that I continue to believe, in the face of all the arguments back and forth, to be completely irrational; yet, I find myself simply and totally unable to not believe. How is it that I do not strive to maintain my faith, but I still have faith?



      

Love,
Bill
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freenglad
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Posted: Jan-25-11 at 9:38am | IP Logged  

Hi Bill!

It's because God doesn't change. When you have that very real connection with him, even though you can wage a mental war for or against the rationality of your faith, the faith itself doesn't change because God's the one who put it there. At least, that's how I think of it... since I'm busy doing nothing to maintain my faith as well! It must be him cuz it's not me!  

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mary
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   Sherri,

        Wonderful and encouraging!


  


      

Mary
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robpison
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Posted: Feb-04-11 at 12:38pm | IP Logged  

A little infography for the visually oriented:

http://bit.ly/i45uVN


(And never forget that Good is the abscence of bad :)

I'll be back soon to reply to you all - heathen!

      

Evil is the abscence of GOOD.
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the shovel
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Posted: Feb-04-11 at 2:41pm | IP Logged  

robpison wrote:
A little infography for the visually oriented:

http://bit.ly/i45uVN


(And never forget that Good is the abscence of bad :)

I'll be back soon to reply to you all - heathen!


Hello, my new friend Rob :)

Quote:
(And never forget that Good is the abscence of bad :)


While there is no bad in Good, no darkness in Light, I would challenge the above definition. Good is what it is because it is of God, not because it is absent of bad. That would suggest more of a yin-yang kind of premise. You see, bad is defined or understood by what it is not — that is, what it is missing, but good is defined by what it is. You may be interested in an article I wrote back in '99 called the Empty Thing.

Thanks for posting!
Jim




      

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robpison
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Posted: Feb-05-11 at 12:32pm | IP Logged  

You are right Jim. I should have said Bad is the abscence of Good.

Anyway, it seems that we are talking about the same postulate (thanks Albert ;) A postulate that Hegel calls the "semblance of being".
Now the question is "where does this being has its "existence" and essentiality?"



Please, skim this Here - it is a very short read about the evolution of religion (this time from Hegel's lectures on Aesthetics. It speaks briefly about the abstractness of the determination within this religion of "light".)

Take care.
Rob

Edited by robpison on Feb-09-11 at 6:43am


      

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robpison
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Posted: Feb-06-11 at 10:55am | IP Logged  

Mercy Man wrote:

Jesus said... How do you know that's actually what Jesus said?

There is a striking discrepancy between the simplicity of Christ's message and the profoundness of the Notion he reveals through that message. Only when the all process that brings the Notion (the Truth within the Idea of God,) as close to the Absolute as it can be reached, neither through consciousness, nor through self-conciousness, nor even by reason, but by the Real finite Spirit; only when this almost absolute Notion is brought to your understanding; only then, will you know that, what Christ said, came from Christ and not from some illuminated guru. Real Faith is of this spiritual maturity.

Mercy Man wrote:

Paul said... How much weight can you really attach to the philosophy of some guy who has a 2,000 year old world view?

As long as you understand the narrative of those days, and the meaning of the words used at that time, then you might be able to transpose it in today's framework.

Mercy Man wrote:

The apostles laid down their lives for the gospel, so it must be true?... Don't suicide bombers sacrifice their own lives (and others no doubt)for their cause? Does that make it true, too?

Well, the frame of mind in which they put themselves to accomplish such an act, namely the work of vengeance, cannot be the supporting case for comparison. As you rightly say: "and others no doubt." We are here at the core of Christ's message, that is to say, to rise above the sphere of justice and injustice so as to enter the higher realm of pure real finite Spirit. The Spirit that will be will be poured into the infinite Absolute Spirit of God when we will pass away.
Christ's message does not stop short at that example, but it was certainly the easiest to understand, as it speaks greatly to the senses, to the flesh.
I believe the suicide bombers to be the chaff that remains in this finite world, (as illusory it might be;) for there is no Spirit into that revengeful behavior. As I believe people that are ready to take revenge or die for their country, or do whatever kind of neuronic excitment behavior of the sort, and not to be ready to die as martyrs in peace as the Apostles or their close followers did, to be of the "natural mind" & natural flesh kind.


Take it easy, pal!


Edited by robpison on Feb-06-11 at 11:55am


      

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robpison
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Posted: Feb-06-11 at 11:19am | IP Logged  

Debi wrote:
Hey, we have been made right-no longer living from the tree of the knowledge of right and wrong but from the tree of LIFE.


Oh, that sounds like a bit of overindulgence here.

Jhn 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

The tree of Life (life eternal) is in Eden, Debi. To make it there is to to become finite Spirit first - and this is to renounce to the Tree of the knowledge of Good and evil here, in this world. Now, we have the right to do this, freely, through free will, thanks to Christ. And finite Spirit is just what it's all about. The transcendence of contradictions willingly. This is just what Christ came to teach us.
You still have to pass the exam though.
That would be too easy.

Jesus!



Edited by robpison on Feb-06-11 at 2:49pm


      

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robpison
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Dignz wrote:
The natural mind will not agree with god as it is NOT ABLE to.

That is pure Judaïsm! (as far as I can understand what "natural mind" means.)
As if Christ had never been here.
I want to make Him history, but not wipe Him out of it.

As for miracles, I do not believe that Christ did like them much.
Jhn 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.
And even when He did some, they even did not believe them sometimes.

As far as "having the very Spirit of the living God," I have to say I am dubious about that. It sounds to me like dangerous self-complacency.
As for me, Christ came to, in His own words, "overcome the world". That is to make God concrete within the finite and negative realm of His creation, and to have Him return to Himself as Spirit.
Now, this is a very important moment; for God had been an abstraction up to this point, for Himsef, as well as for man's consciousness.
So where do we stand in this scheme?
You should know by now that the overcoming of the negation is a negation itself, namely, the negation of the world. The negation of the world for Spirit sake.
All the Apostles got the Spirit through the relinquishment of their wordly life. Their renouncement was total. (apart from you know who - the "killer" - Money maker) oops!
(why is it suddenly raining upon me in my bedroom?)

Take care


Edited by robpison on Feb-06-11 at 2:24pm


      

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csnarnia
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Posted: Feb-06-11 at 3:37pm | IP Logged  

"Amen! I find the fact that I continue to believe, in
the face of all the arguments back and forth, to be
completely irrational; yet, I find myself simply and
totally unable to not believe. How is it that I do not
strive to maintain my faith, but I still have faith?"

HT, My sentiments exactly...and very encouraging. But
right now I am really getting anxious cause it's
SuperBowl Sunday

      

"We are not on the road to success...we are on the success road." Coach Frosty Westering
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csnarnia
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BTW, I do find myself striving to maintain my
faith...The striving ends when I just trust what Jesus
did for me.

      

"We are not on the road to success...we are on the success road." Coach Frosty Westering
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Dave S
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Posted: Feb-06-11 at 8:15pm | IP Logged  


<All the Apostles got the Spirit through the relinquishment of their wordly life.>

Now, that's Judaism !!

By the Spirit there was an experience of the relinquishment of their worldly mind, by the Life that they would become to understand as being far superior. Just as it is with us, whom believe, by the Spirit as being in the world but not of it

Life and Truth came by grace, lest any should boast, even of a free will. Being written, "not of the will of man, but by my Spirit" . The Spirit of Grace. Only by atonement is the will made free.

A monk may relinquish a wordly life and yet remain in darkness, under law, that by laying down a worldly life, would neccessitate God granting His Spirit.

 

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robpison
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Posted: Feb-07-11 at 4:37am | IP Logged  

Dave S wrote:
Now, that's Judaism !!

Rob wrote:
Now, that's Judaism !

I meant by this, that Judaïsm implied, strongly at the beginning, an impossible incursion into the divine for the common believer; and although that Notion has evolved through time, it remains something more grounded in this religion than ours which is the religion of reconciliation.

Now, is someone nice enough to explain to me what is a "wordly" or "natural" mind?
Is mind intellect? or something concrete in which takes place some kind of consciousness or even self-conciousness (the consciousness of this consciousness?) or the home of the reasoning activity? or the abode of the thinking process?
Do you mean "finite?"
Do you mean finite intellect, or consciousness or self-conciousness or reasoning or thinking?
For thought and more precisely Absolute Thought (God) is infinite. The activity of Thought, the life of It (Spirit) is only finite in the limit of the Notion, as far as man is concerned.
Now the truth of the Notion has been revealed as far as how the world has been overcomed. Now, Real Spirit dwells in the midst of the Church; as Real God did among men.

Quote:

"not of the will of man, but by my Spirit"
- Do you mean John 1:13 - Well, it does explain how Spirit got into His Church, not how He has to go back to Himself.

Concreteness can be idealized Dave :)

Take care.


Edited by robpison on Feb-07-11 at 5:05am


      

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robpison
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csnarnia wrote:
But right now I am really getting anxious cause it's
SuperBowl Sunday


Enjoy and encroach!

      

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Broken Link
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Posted: Feb-07-11 at 11:43am | IP Logged  

robpison wrote:
In faith the true content is certainly already found, but there
is still wanting to it the form of thought. All forms such as feeling, popular
ideas, and such like, may certainly have the form of truth, but they themselves
are not the true form which makes the true content necessary. Thought is the
absolute judge before which the content must verify and attest its claims.
Okay, trying to make sense of all of your language, I went to the very
beginning. You wish for someone to define "natural mind" for you. I fear that
your need for definition may simply be necessary to categorize the word in your
(and perhaps Hegel's) pre-constructed framework of definitions. You argue that
thought is the true form of the true content, and somewhere down the line of
reasoning would naturally follow words, and the ability to discuss and reason
out the relationships and links between cause and effect.

I am not sure that we have built a common vocabulary with which to hold a
discussion regarding faith, truth, thought, etc. The English language is common
enough, but perhaps not quite sufficient as an expedient. I have a lot of
experience where common words were implied with uncommon meanings when used in
small groups and circles of influence. Consequently, I fear there is a risk of
misunderstanding. If not me misunderstanding you, then certainly you
misunderstanding me by trying to shoehorn my words and definitions into where
you perceive they belong.

Your discussion suggests a specific train of thought that does not appear to be
common among many of those who share here. Since we did not establish any
common thoughts we may share, the continued discussion and seeming rebuttal of
comments by others suggest an agenda of "what" you have come to share, and
"how" you perceive our understanding of what you share.

So, my question to you is why is there the need to separate faith and thought?
This seems too artificial a construct to tie the word "true" to, whether by
form, function, or content. It merely seems to be an artifice to eliminate
anything which may be perceived to not support a predetermined framework of
reasoning; as if God's truth only exists and can be communicated as logical
thought. It quite denies all other aspects of God.

      

Bill
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robpison
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Well Broken link, I thought I was using a basic philosophical 101 language, of which, maybe, the most difficult concept would be the one of the "Notion"; although I have tried to be very clear on the subject.
This is not a particular Hegelian framework, as you could find the same elements of thougt with Aristotle or any other philosopher. This is, as I said, a very basic use of primary philosophical categories. No need to go to Stanford for that matter.
Something I am obviously wrong to take as granted.

Anyway!

It seems that these concepts are for you, as hard to understand, than it is for me to grasp some great content in some poor predicates as "God is Love" or "God is Truth" or "God is Whatever." Or else "we have been made right - no longer living from the tree of the knowledge of right and wrong but from the tree of LIFE."
In all these predicates, the content is true, so is the form. Still these kind of assertions that are proclaimed with great faith in the wind have not, I think (maybe wrongly,) been really thought upon.
"Allah wakbar!" for instance. That is what I call a simple great statement of faith. A great statement that predicates the greatness of Allah.
However, I would like these very faithfull and smart persons I hear all over, to tell me what they really think about what is so wakbar in this wakbarness.

You understand?
Let's put this wakbarness or this knowledge of right and wrong in a little corner of our mind and make it an object for thought.



Edited by robpison on Feb-07-11 at 2:36pm


      

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Broken Link
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Posted: Feb-07-11 at 3:14pm | IP Logged  

Rob,

I'm just working with your words that you have shared since you got here,
and this is what I get:
1. You are a fan of Hegel.
2. You are looking for a way to effectively, or more effectively, express
something (salvation?) using a philosophical framework. My assumption is
that it is the framework provided by Hegel, since it is references by him
that you have shared.

I have these questions:
1. How did you find this forum?
2. Who are you?
3. What if our discussion does not fulfill your needs in creating this
more effective way to discuss faith with "worldly men".

It is my opinion that the attempt to convey faith to worldly men through
logic (plain thought), to the point of acceptance, is Pyrrhic. I am a fan
of Espinoza, but only because I identify with what he shared, rather than
accept what he shared based on the logic. I venture that something
similar may be at work in your mind. Especially since so many have
reviewed Hegel on the basis of logic alone and have not agreed
with him.



      

Bill
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robpison
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Broken Link wrote:

I'm just working with your words

Oh please, don't. It should not be that hard. Just let yourself slide on them.

Broken Link wrote:

..using a philosophical framework. My assumption is that it is the framework provided by Hegel

Sure! - the book I am just refering to, and talking about, is just about Hegel's lectures on the philosophy of religion. How could it be something else?
Although, this "framework" of Hegel does refer to all the other "frameworks," namely, those from Parmenides' to Kant's.

Broken Link wrote:

worldly men

How could that be different?!? - Deedadeedadeeda..... ;)

Broken Link wrote:

It is my opinion that the attempt to convey faith to worldly men through logic (plain thought), to the point of acceptance, is Pyrrhic.

Pyrrhic! - I would not go that far :) - I'll stop at spending a couple of minutes on each post.

Logic = plain thought ?!?! - Hum!

Broken Link wrote:

I am a fan of Espinoza

Although the charge of pantheism and atheism brought against his doctrine is a bit exagerated, I believe his philosophy to be a philosophy of substantiality more than a pantheism.
The absolute substance of Spinoza certainly falls short of Absolute Spirit. And his "atheism" is more of the domain of acosmism (denial of the reality of the universe.)
In other words, it is very difficult to be Christian and spinozist.

Broken Link wrote:

since so many have reviewed Hegel on the basis of logic alone and have not agreed with him.

Well this is the point!
Hegel has considered three basics and fundamental categories to start with; and these are Nature (at the lowest level), then Logic (in the sense here of metaphysics with such sub-categories as Being, Essence, Existence, etc.) and at the top of it, Spirit, of which the subdivision of Religion and the subdivision of religion that is Christianity is to be placed at the very top of the hierarchy of these elements of thought.
So reviewing Hegel on the basis of logic alone is a major error.
It is like making a pizza without bread.

Anyway, Hegel is definitely a misunderstood philosopher. The most striking example is to see how he is so tied to marxism; which is pure nonsense. I mean, it is not because someone took his philosophy and stripped it from it's most essential and highest part (religion) that you have to make him the precursor of some useless political doctrine.
By the way, Lenin's comment "Hegel's secret has been well kept up to now," is stimulating enough to have a pick at Hegel's works and philosophy. As stimulating as to know that Schopenhauer or, even better, Russell were some fervent detractors of what I believe is one of the greatest philosopher of the Spirit in Christianity.

Why don't you start here to skim his work on the evolution of religion.


Take care.



Edited by robpison on Feb-08-11 at 1:33pm


      

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Broken Link
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Posted: Feb-08-11 at 6:14pm | IP Logged  

Since I know nothing about who you are, I have only your words to work with
to interpret the intent or form behind the content you have provided me. In
that respect, your first post appealed to the possibility of plain thought
being acceptable to "worldly men". Being that you believe these men to accept
plain thought, even when they will not accept perfect thought, I am led to
believe your plain thought to be communicated; therefore, I deduce that you
mean to reason with such men. Reasoning of any effective measure must
certainly employ logic, such as most philosopher's are fond of using.

We might all say that our favorite maligned philosophers are misunderstood. I
am not here to defend Spinoza, just mentioning that I am a fan. He does not
define or explain my faith, and I doubt anyone else here, except maybe you,
has read him.

Your link has a lot of information to review, I was wondering if there was
one particular volume you were referring to? I am also curious to which
flavor of Christianity might Hegel be more inclined towards? Similar to
philosophy, Christianity is littered with theses and criticisms on the nature
of all things spiritual.

Edited by Broken Link on Feb-08-11 at 6:17pm


      

Bill
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luvin
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Posted: Feb-08-11 at 7:29pm | IP Logged  

Hi Rob,

I too wondered what brought YOU here. Most all
people who have posted her over the years have had
some sort of introduction or some sort of greeting
when asked about themselves.[that is if they choose
to post]Not that this is a requirement necessarily.
It is just that it is pretty much familiar behavior
to those of us who have seen many, many people come
here and post.[to the best of my memory] I find it
odd that you are only giving us knowledge and
information[that you have apparently written] and
not anything personal what so ever after posting as
much as you have. Not to mention Bill actually asked
you point blank :

"1. How did you find this forum?
2. Who are you? "

I guess my first impression of your most recent
writings is that you some how found the site and
thought that we might 'understand' a bit of what you
have wrote on your links and that you might be known
somehow that way. I guess that could be in part that
you saw the articles by Jim, which are very well
written and have some deep thinking involved.

I am afraid you may be disappointed if that is the
case my friend.[not that I know] For there are not
many here currently that will knowingly strive and
compete with how much knowledge they can attain in
this life. Unless of course we are referring to the
very knowledge of God which is HIDDEN from the wise
of this age. But, hey that comes regardless and
almost despite our striving after fleshly knowledge.

THAT is the knowledge we are all often discussing
here and so that is often the plain objective of the
Shack.

By the way my name is Adam[aka: 'Luvin'] and I have
been here coming up on 10 years. I am living in the
U.S. and found the Shack browsing web sites having
to do with the subject of grace. I have enjoyed the
wonderful support and detangling of law and legal
issues while being here and I plan to continue to
follow along and hopefully keep up with the
friendships I have gained here and there on this
forum as I am able.

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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luvin
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Posted: Feb-09-11 at 1:09am | IP Logged  

robpison wrote:
A little infography for the
visually oriented:

http://bit.ly/i45uVN


(And never forget that Good is the abscence of
bad
:)

I'll be back soon to reply to you all - heathen!


Hey this was a neat little graph by the way. I did
not have a chance to read it all but, it still was
kind of an unique thing.

Adam

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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robpison
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Posted: Feb-09-11 at 5:25am | IP Logged  

luvin wrote:
Hi Rob,

Most all people who have posted her over the years have had some sort of introduction or some sort of greeting when asked about themselves.

Hello everyone,
I am Robert;
Quantitatively, I am nothing.
Qualitatively, I am worthless.
I live in the illusory, yet very real realm of the Creation.
I Work for the Old Man up there, and my interests are His.
I found this forum on Zoecarnate.


luvin wrote:

..we might 'understand' a bit of what you have wrote on your links and that you might be known somehow that way.

As you might have noticed, this "concealment" that you are reproaching me, is not really the way to make oneself known.
I am not here to make myself known, or even to make a buck out of the Lord.
In fact, I have just found a candle under a bed.

luvin wrote:

I guess that could be in part that you saw the articles by Jim, which are very well written and have some deep thinking involved.

This is absolutely right!

luvin wrote:

For there are not many here currently that will knowingly strive and compete with how much knowledge they can attain in this life.
Unless of course we are referring to the very knowledge of God which is HIDDEN from the wise of this age.

This is a dispiriting mistake.
For the very idea behind the death of the Manifestation (Christ) is the advent of the Spirit of Reconciliation.
With Christ, nothing is hidden; maybe enwrapped in parables, but certainly not hidden.
Christianity is a broterhood; however not freemasonry, or some secretive sect of the occult!

Now, lets have a little parable here.
It is called the parable of the witty boy. And it goes as follow:
A little facetious lad was walking through an unfamiliar neighborhood with a bag of cherry in his hand. As he walked, he threw the pits on every lawn of every house he passed by.
Now, some did sprout and some did not.
And when some did enjoy the bowl of cherries, they did not think about the boy they happened not to know, and who never went back to their neighborhood.


Fade out

Edited by robpison on Feb-10-11 at 3:19am


      

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the shovel
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Posted: Feb-09-11 at 9:25am | IP Logged  

Hello Rob ... of course, you may not see this should you decide not to come back to our neighborhood

While you apparently want to remain anonymous for spiritual and/or philosophical reasons, I can tell you that many of us share the desire to know those who visit because we want to know if there is anything behind the discussion.

Rob wrote:
I Work for the Old Man up there, and my interests are His.


And His interests are us, for we are born of Him. So far, I can't tell if you care anything beyond getting us to read the info you've linked to so that some of us might have a more enlightened discussion of Christian philosophy with you. Maybe you do, but I sure don't see at this point. The truth of God actually goes somewhere and does something, discussion of this truth is nothing in and of itself. Ah, but if the discussion shows itself as faith and life working through love, that's another matter.

Rob wrote:
Quantitatively, I am nothing.
Qualitatively, I am worthless.


While I know you could produce some Scripture to back up your individual statements, I would have you know that in Christ you are no longer nothing, no longer worthless. I desire that you find your confidence in Christ alone, and not in a framework of Christian philosophy.

Jim :)


      

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luvin
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Posted: Feb-09-11 at 9:42am | IP Logged  

Wow,

Out of 6,000 options you clicked on a link that read
: "The Shovel Surfin' On Life"? Very interesting.
Miraculous indeed. Or not.[I say that only with
honest wonder]


I also found this very telling [and interesting]
self description of someone who goes under the name
of Mike Morell on zeocarnate.wordpress:

'Thanks for spending some time on my blog. Who am I?
I’m a wannabe mystic and prophet, husband and
father, lover and friend. I live in Raleigh, NC,
with my wife Jasmin and little girl, Jubilee Grace.
I’m also a friend of God in the way of Jesus – like
many other scoundrels, ne’er-do-wells, and would-be
saints.'

The great and good news[that you will 'hear' over
and again here]of Christ and God's reconciliation in
Him is that we who have received Him, have Life!
This Life is now OUR life. The implications of that
is something hidden for it can only be revealed by
the mind of the Spirit. It can not be debated or
philosophized in order to be understood. Oh sure
many are engaged in the attempt all the time but,
they will never come to an understanding of
something or Someone that has not part with it. The
Apostle Paul called it the mind of Christ. Great
News!


Edited to add quotation

Edited by luvin on Feb-09-11 at 9:45am


      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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mary
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Posted: Feb-11-11 at 11:44pm | IP Logged  

to all of you shacksters!

Edited by mary on Feb-11-11 at 11:50pm


      

Mary
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Debi
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Posted: Feb-14-11 at 3:23am | IP Logged  

Here are a few quotes from some of Jim's writings that somewhat go along with this topic; I was uplifted (avoiding the over use of the word encouraged) by them and just thought I'd link to them again, even though you may have read them before.

It's also the same thing Paul told the Corinthians when he described the inability of the natural mind to understand God. He didn't suggest that knowing things was bad, but simply that logic or man's reasoning ability could not reach God's wisdom. It is the logic of a mind that cannot come to God that is the problem and not the individual bits of information. A logic of darkness or blindness will use every bit of information to prove its already-formed conclusion, while a logic that sees and knows will find a witness in anything and everything!

There is no magic concept of child-like faith that we were ever expected to strive for … it was only framed that way to make a clear point to those who heard it. The logic of the men who spent all their time following Jesus was just as backward as anyone else, and God chose for them to learn the miraculous by having it continually clash against every single one of their fleshly-formed reasonings.


http://theshovel.net/qa/faith/child-like-faith




Christ himself is the wisdom and understanding of God, and in him God is seen, and in him the former reasoning is understood as being total futility.

http://theshovel.net/qa/god/philosophical-questions-about-go d-and-evil



What people DON'T understand about the freedom of Christ is that it has removed us TOTALLY from the bondage of ANY KIND of fleshly performance because it has placed us INTO a freedom that is not of this world's logic - Eastern OR Western or any other kind. It is the life of God's Spirit that is in us that baffles and mystifies those without Christ because he has made us ALIVE and FREE in an unknown sense to the mind of man. It's not because we have the right words, it's because we have LIFE.

http://theshovel.net/qa/the-gospel/eastern-versus-western-pe rspective




Edited to correct links-whoops



Edited by Debi on Feb-14-11 at 11:32am


      

Debi
"Truth is not the sum total of all true things, but is instead a person & His name is Jesus & He has become our LIFE."
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the shovel
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Posted: Feb-14-11 at 10:12am | IP Logged  

Hello Debi,

Thanks for posting those quotes, for even though I wrote them, I also found them encour... I mean, uplifting. This whole distinction between the reasoning or logic of man versus that of God cuts like night and day across so much of the confusion of religious Christianity.

You may want to change the link address for the first quotes:
http://theshovel.net/qa/faith/child-like-faith

Love, Jim


      

DIGGIN'THE LIFE!
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Dignz
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<All the Apostles got the Spirit through the relinquishment of their wordly life.>

"Now, that's Judaism !!

By the Spirit there was an experience of the relinquishment of their worldly mind, by the Life that they would become to understand as being far superior. Just as it is with us, whom believe, by the Spirit as being in the world but not of it

Life and Truth came by grace, lest any should boast, even of a free will. Being written, "not of the will of man, but by my Spirit" . The Spirit of Grace. Only by atonement is the will made free.

<dave s

i especially loved that, dave. 

the thought came to me about how the will of man is 'bound' ... it is 'bound' to serve the will of man.  the spirit serves the will of god, even tho he may use, for god's purpose, a man who is bound by his own will to serve man, yet the spirit uses that bound man to serve god in particular instances  ... miracles indeed.  is that confusing or what? 





      

"afterall, he's not a tame lion"
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Dignz
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"While I know you could produce some Scripture to back up your individual statements, I would have you know that in Christ you are no longer nothing, no longer worthless. I desire that you find your confidence in Christ alone, and not in a framework of Christian philosophy."  <jim

i especially loved those words in bold ... life and love assuring, sourced in christ himself, ya know?  not just some man who was here for a moment ... but god in man ... spirit raised ... evermore eternal still.






      

"afterall, he's not a tame lion"
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Dan815
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RobGod loves us all no matter what knowledge or what we think.I believe that is what all people to see so that we would love one another.That love is in all of us we just have to take time to see His love.

Love Dan

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