Surfing on life banner
The ShovelShack Archives
Between January 2002 and December 2011, almost 46,000 posts were created by members of the Shovel Shack discussion group.
In 2012, the Shovel Shack moved to a new home: shovelshack.org. Shovelshack.net will be kept intact as an archive for those amazing discussions.

Browse a bit and then join us at ShovelShack.org

The Stuff of Grace
 Shovel Shack : The Stuff of Grace
Subject Topic: What is the ruling force in this world?
Author
Message << Prev Topic | Next Topic >>
the shovel
Shackmeister
Shackmeister


Joined: Oct-01-01
Location: United States
Posts: 4187
Posted: Feb-05-02 at 8:08pm | IP Logged  

Quote: Originally posted by Jolamo on 2/03/02

 Wow! I gotta be careful of that clear form button.    What is the ruling force in this world? Death or condemnation or Eternal Life-Grace & Truth?

There may be more options to this.  I don't know.  I ask this Question in regards to where Paul mentions in Romans 5:14 that death reigned from Adam to Moses.  Anyone have any thoughts?   


Hey Joe!!

I don't think Paul's reason for bringing up the "from Adam to Moses" has anything to do with making a distinction between the ruling force of death and condemnation as being an either / or thing.  The whole point of his argument was to point out that death reigned during the time before the Law was given over people who didn't break any specific God-given laws. 

Why is this important to know?  Because their whole reality under sin and death was upon them because of one man: Adam.  It was all put into place before they were even born - they had no choice in the matter!!  Everybody born through Adam was born into this sin and death.  It was gratis - a freebie!  Period.

Why is this important to know?  Because righteousness and life is passed in the same way ... negatively speaking, that is (that's how the language presents it.)  We had nothing to do with this righteousness and life passing to us for it was accomplished without our consent and without our input.  It is gratis - a freebie!!

So the distinction of "condemnation" through Moses had to do with how the Law produced massive quantities of sin.  There is a likeness between Adam and Moses in that both were given specific commands.  Adam broke a command, but that command could not be broken by those born through him since he was removed from the presence of the object of that one command.

Adam understood what it was to be given a specifc command from God, and he understood the consequences for God had spoken it to him ahead of time.  The Jews understood what it was to be presented with specific commands from God, and they understood the condemnation that was deserved because it had been clearly stated ahead of time. 

The people between Adam and Moses were not given any such commands from God (even though they came up with their own) and God had no basis for holding them liable for sin and death simply because they were IN Adam. 

We are given life and righteousness simply because we are IN Christ.  It's a gift.  We didn't bring it about, we didn't decide ourselves into it, we weren't consulted about it all at.

Jim 

Back to Top
 
Alan
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Nov-30-01
Location: United States
Posts: 146
Posted: Feb-06-02 at 12:20pm | IP Logged  

Let me say, In my opinion, JIM RULES!!!  I think this is him just to the left of the President (your right) at a Whitehouse Superbowl party the other night (without his glasses)!

Alan

Back to Top
 
the shovel
Shackmeister
Shackmeister


Joined: Oct-01-01
Location: United States
Posts: 4187
Posted: Feb-06-02 at 1:39pm | IP Logged  

Quote: Originally posted by Alan on 2/06/02

Let me say, In my opinion, JIM RULES!!!  I think this is him just to the left of the President (your right) at a Whitehouse Superbowl party the other night (without his glasses)!

Alan


Hello Alan ... thanks for that encouraging opinion.    Of course, I do rule my throne room from time to time.  hehe!  By the way, your picture didn't show up (for the rest of us, that is) because it is on your computer and not available to the web.  If you want to send the picture to me I can upload it and then connect the two.  I'm very curious to see the shot myself.  :)

Jim

Back to Top
 
the shovel
Shackmeister
Shackmeister


Joined: Oct-01-01
Location: United States
Posts: 4187
Posted: Feb-06-02 at 2:05pm | IP Logged  

Quote: Originally posted by Jolamo on 2/06/02

So I guess my thought would be why the use of the weighty word reign if it was a simple matter of dispensation?  But with your response in mind I will rethink this connection.  Thank you for your excellent understanding it is refreshing!!            


Yeah, I remember finally climbing out of that weightiness of words to which it seemed only scholars and theologians were privy.  What a joy and relief it has been to me over the years to discover that most of the "weighty" passages of the Bible have come across as "deep" because religion has forced them into that perception.

This makes me think of Jesus' comments in Matthew 11:25-30

At that time Jesus said, "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight.  All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.  Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.  Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.  For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.

If our "interpretations" are out of reach to our gut-level everyday experiences then I think we have wrongly assumed that God has hidden these things from infants and revealed them instead to the wise and intelligent.  But I think that's only how the so-called "wise and intelligent" want us to see it.  As a matter of fact, Joe, I think you had made a very similar comment in an email you sent me last week.  No wonder we can only sit back and marvel when we realize that in such simplicity we are looking into the very mind of God Himself!!

Yahoo!!   Jim

Back to Top
 
Alan
Extreme Digger
Extreme Digger


Joined: Nov-30-01
Location: United States
Posts: 146
Posted: Feb-06-02 at 2:46pm | IP Logged  

Quote: Originally posted by the shovel on 2/06/02
Quote: Originally posted by Alan on 2/06/02

Let me say, In my opinion, JIM RULES!!!  I think this is him just to the left of the President (your right) at a Whitehouse Superbowl party the other night (without his glasses)!

Alan


Hello Alan ... thanks for that encouraging opinion.    Of course, I do rule my throne room from time to time.  hehe!  By the way, your picture didn't show up (for the rest of us, that is) because it is on your computer and not available to the web.  If you want to send the picture to me I can upload it and then connect the two.  I'm very curious to see the shot myself.  :)

Jim


Well, isn't that a bummer!  It was just a picture of George Bush sitting between a couple of Generals in the Oval Office.  Like a joke you have to explain...it's probably not funny anymore.

Educate me here:  The "add image button" on our toolbar only works for images that have web addresses?

Alan

Back to Top
 
the shovel
Shackmeister
Shackmeister


Joined: Oct-01-01
Location: United States
Posts: 4187
Posted: Feb-06-02 at 3:31pm | IP Logged  

Quote: Originally posted by Alan on 2/06/02

Educate me here:  The "add image button" on our toolbar only works for images that have web addresses?

Alan


Yep!  You see, if we were able to see that picture that you have on your computer that would mean that we were accessing your computer!!     Not a good thing at all.  Now, there are ways to allow a limited access to selected info on your computer, but unless you have a good reason for doing so it would not be advisable.  Also, whenever your computer was offline or else turned off then the info would be inaccessible. 

So, how this works is that the image "address" links the actual image so that it can be accessed and viewed here. 

It is easy to do this, too.  If you right-click on the online image you'll see an option called "Properties" (that's the bottom option in Internet Explorer, anyhow, it's something similar on Netscape).   Click "Properties" and you'll see the info for that image.  Highlight and then copy (Ctrl + C) the internet address and then put that address (or "Paste" it - Ctrl + V) into the place where it asks for the image address.  That's it.

Jim

Back to Top
 
the shovel
Shackmeister
Shackmeister


Joined: Oct-01-01
Location: United States
Posts: 4187
Posted: Feb-07-02 at 1:50pm | IP Logged  

Quote: Originally posted by Jolamo on 2/06/02
I appologize for the large print.  I copied this out of my word processing program. After I realized it was large print I tried to change it to normal but I was obviously unsuccessful.  I am totally computer illiterate!  Need my twelve year old to give me lessons. *snicker*

Okay bro, I got ya fixed up there!! 

As to the distinction you're asking about between "reign" and "dispensation" I'm a little uncertain.  You said something about power, and I'm not making the connection.  What is it exactly that you're considering? 

Jim

Back to Top
 

 



the shovel home page