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The Stuff of Grace
 Shovel Shack : The Stuff of Grace
Subject Topic: Kicked out of Pastors.COM
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Joyce
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Posted: Jun-28-05 at 10:52am | IP Logged  

 

Joe,

Glad to know about how you are about jumping in to defend people.  If you ever decide to jump in to my defense when you and I are on opposing sides of an issue, that would be great! 

Seriously,  I think it is good when people let us know more about themselves.  There are limitations on the net and we can think of people in a certain way that isn't really the total person.  I was on another forum where I knew one of the men there personally and we had gotten together with he and his wife periodically.  He was the type that could come across real strong, but inside could also be very sensitive to others.  Anyway, a conflict arose involving him and I could see how others were coming to the conclusion about him from the way he was writing, but their perception of him was not really right.  I guess that's when "I" jumped in to defend.  Anyway, glad for the increased insight to the real you.

Joyce

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luvin
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Posted: Jun-28-05 at 11:27am | IP Logged  

Actually Joe is one of the nicest guys youll ever meet.He is a very,very laid back guy and has a real sensitivity to what he beleives God has laid on his heart.Joe your ok by me bro.....
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Mercy Man
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Posted: Jun-28-05 at 2:54pm | IP Logged  

Connie wrote:

 Mercy Man,

that's such a weird story. Why don't you just come out and say what you want to say plainly? 



Hey, Connie.

The above little story is part fiction/part fact. Maybe the wannabe story writer raised its weird, malformed head. Could be. And I know, I won't give up my day job.

My wife did tell me that I needed to go see the doctor because of some symptoms (behaviours even more abnormal than normal) I was exhibiting.

At first I dismissed her pleadings, but it would have been foolish of me at any time to attribute her motives to anything beyond her love and care for me.

I didn't go see Doctor "Bilboo", but if I had to go a doctor (doctors = plague in my mind) I was tempted to find one who wouldn't put me through a battery of tests, because I wanted to believe everything was okay (I felt "fine").

Ultimately, my avoidance of the truth didn't make everything better. Neither did my symptoms (no matter how hard I tried to walk the line) disappear, as far as my wife was concerned.

I finally went to the doctor. Both of my brothers have adult onset diabetes, but that is the last thing that was on my mind, as I assumed that this ailment had no genetic source, but was solely associated with weight and diet (my brothers are both heavy set, and I am built more like a pool cue).

I relate this to issues of the soul. In my view, I think it bodes me well to recognize that, irregardless of my perfected spiritual union with Him,  I may have things that are not right in my body or soul, things that I can't or won't see, things that just aren't going to go away by themselves (including confessing or believing that I am whole, or inclining my ear to someone/anyone who will tell me that everything is hunky dorey).

In light of this thread, I think it will also serve me well not to dismiss, out of hand, any exhortation or pleading by a brother/sister/loved one, that there might be something possibly ailing my soul/body, and neither attribute only the worst of motives/mindset to their suggestion.

1Th 4:1  Finally then, brothers, we beg and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God, that you abound more and more.

1Pe 2:11  Beloved, I beg you as foreigners and pilgrims, to abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;



Edited by Mercy Man on Jun-28-05 at 3:46pm


      

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Connie
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Posted: Jun-28-05 at 4:20pm | IP Logged  

well, thanks mercy man!  I thought maybe you were relating a parable to drive home a point you wanted to make about the thread, or this site, or something.  I read your story several times, but couldn't get a clear understanding. Now I know it was a combination of the two.   

I'm hoping your health is improving.  I also have diabetes in the family and have lost a sister and grandmother to it.  I, like you ,have assumed it has to do with weight, and since I'm not overweight, I ignore the concept.  I do relate to what you're going through.  I know my husband puts up with my ups and downs and junk and I think it has to do with this point of my middle aged life.  I don't feel as well as I could, but I'm putting off dealing with it.  I don't have a naggy husband, though, so I'll eventually have to get a check up when I resolve to. so many of health things I've dealt with in the past have practically been dealt with on my own.  Doing my own research and finding holistic answers, but I know diabetes is nothing to take lightly.

Kinda like sin.  We won't take it lightly, but seeing as there is a cure, here we all are: hoping to encourage one another in the cure.  



      

Connie
"Wow!It's so bright in here!"
II Cor.4:5-6

    
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Rest and Trust
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Posted: Jun-28-05 at 9:23pm | IP Logged  

luvin wrote:
Actually Joe is one of the nicest guys youll ever meet.He is a very,very laid back guy and has a real sensitivity to what he beleives God has laid on his heart.Joe your ok by me bro.....

 

Hey Adam, You better do 100 1st John 1:9s, on your head, in the bathtub for lying like that......

Thanks for the Kind word, now if you would just come over to the house here and convince my kids of what you said.

You asked about my chiropractors Ph#. I don't have it here and we don't have the Sacramento phone book here but his name is Taras Lumier and he works at the office of Health Associates on Alta Arden a couple blocks west of Watt. He really does excellent work with his hands. He is also very good at acupuncture. Just ignore the chicken bones.

Let me know if you give him a try I would like to know how it works out for ya?  

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Rest and Trust
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Posted: Jun-28-05 at 9:32pm | IP Logged  

Joyce wrote:

 

Joe,

Glad to know about how you are about jumping in to defend people.  If you ever decide to jump in to my defense when you and I are on opposing sides of an issue, that would be great! 

Seriously,  I think it is good when people let us know more about themselves.  There are limitations on the net and we can think of people in a certain way that isn't really the total person.  I was on another forum where I knew one of the men there personally and we had gotten together with he and his wife periodically.  He was the type that could come across real strong, but inside could also be very sensitive to others.  Anyway, a conflict arose involving him and I could see how others were coming to the conclusion about him from the way he was writing, but their perception of him was not really right.  I guess that's when "I" jumped in to defend.  Anyway, glad for the increased insight to the real you.

Joyce

I can really relate to your friend. I doubt that the way I write is the way I communicate in person also. Simply because I am such a terrible writer. (Then again I am not that great of a communicator in person either. ) I have always really appreciated your desire of unity. Likeminded unity in the Spirit can be a difficult struggle to achieve at times but it is always worth it in the end. 

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Buddy
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Posted: Oct-27-05 at 2:56pm | IP Logged  

Mercy Man,

In response to your story, I also know alot of people that like to think they are sick when they are not.  They get alot of attention and they district themselves from deeper problems that they refuse to face.  If they are so physically sick, then they how can anyone expect them to deal with thier spiritual sickness.

With all that said, I find the same thing on a spiritual level.  It is easier for many "In Christ" to be "Spiritual Hypochondriacs" rather than to rest in the good health that Chrsit has given.  For many it is more confortable to strive and feed off of the sickness rather than rest in the cure. 

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luvin
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Posted: Jul-08-10 at 10:43am | IP Logged  

the shovel wrote:
SETH_ wrote:
Jim, do you think when Paul sais "not counting their trespasses against them" meant He never intended to change their tresspassing?

"reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation" Jim, does this mean that even if someone refuses "the ministry of reconcfiliation" he is  still reconciled?


Why would any of this be an issue to those who are in Christ?  Why would you even be considering technicalities that might alter the intended force of his grace instead of simply recognizing the amazing shift that has taken place in Christ, a shift that has smashed our former estimation of all things?  "Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh"  Where do we get off trying to estimate anyone according to the flesh anymore?  If we know that the whole basis of judgment according to sin and flesh is a dead issue through Christ then what possible rationale do we employ to find new ways to judge by it?

When McDave commented on your highlighting of the "IF" you responded: "i did that for the people who believe in UR".  Perhaps if you had done it for yourself you might not have overlooked the incredible life and grace made known to those who are in Christ.  Perhaps you would then find confidence concerning the finality of sin's condemnation as you refuse to hold anyone's sin against them ... including against yourself.

SETH_ wrote:
although i agree  that judging according to the flesh is legalistic/not christian/pharissaic.... do you think temptation doesnt exist? do you think running after the flesh or giving in to its desires doesnt have consquences on the soul and the reconciliation with God?

Of course temptation exists ... of course running after the flesh has consequences.  It stands before us calling our name insisting that we estimate ourselves and each other according to the flesh so that we might think we can find life in its bosom.  It is such a pathetic voice, for it calls from the same grave from which we arose.  But it often succeeds in pulling us into its lie.  Nevertheless, our God will even work all those things for good towards us.  And no, that is not an excuse ... it is a promise!

Quote:
one last question: dont you think that if we want to join in unity (not according to the flesh but Christ) there wouldnt be give and take and interaction, dont you think we need each other, including each others correction, prayer, rebuke and encouragement? dont you agree that Love is caring and cares enough to invite people to a better place, even if that means giving up things that are dear to our selfish and fleshy self...? do you think flesh and spirit are two seperate things and one doesnt affect the other?


If you were to listen with the ears of the Spirit you would hear the ongoing give and take interaction one with another.  Those who judge according to sin and flesh are never satisfied with living interaction for they are not happy unless others are caught up in the same condemnation cycle.  You may have heard the statement, "If momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy", but we got a new momma who doesn't play those games anymore!

Jim




7/8/10

I am not sure were I am going with this but, I did want to comment on this one. You know, I have always tried to understand the ""Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh.." thing from just a purely analytical view point but, I am not so sure that this is the place it is derived from. I mean what if that statement had much more to do with WHO someone is than a WAY, technique, style, behavior, or rule of thought or deed? Well maybe it does encompass those things but, from a different reason. I mean what if the not judging according to the flesh has to do with who and what WE are? Are we not children of God? Holy? Cleansed? Are we to stand around judging exactly the same way in which we were dead in before we were made alive? Same thing with Paul and his gang[our brothers in the faith of Christ Jesus], he could not help but make this righteous judgment for it was WHO he now was in Him...it was part of his NEW clothing if you will I would suspect.


      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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the shovel
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Posted: Jul-08-10 at 2:39pm | IP Logged  

Adam wrote:

7/8/10

I am not sure were I am going with this but, I did want to comment on this one. You know, I have always tried to understand the ""Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh.." thing from just a purely analytical view point but, I am not so sure that this is the place it is derived from. I mean what if that statement had much more to do with WHO someone is than a WAY, technique, style, behavior, or rule of thought or deed? Well maybe it does encompass those things but, from a different reason. I mean what if the not judging according to the flesh has to do with who and what WE are? Are we not children of God? Holy? Cleansed? Are we to stand around judging exactly the same way in which we were dead in before we were made alive? Same thing with Paul and his gang[our brothers in the faith of Christ Jesus], he could not help but make this righteous judgment for it was WHO he now was in Him...it was part of his NEW clothing if you will I would suspect.


Adam, I'm loving how you are seeing the connection according to life, rather than as a technique! After all, how could we trust a flesh-based judgment of those around us? I mean, according to appearances this world puts on quite a show as it tries to convince those who are looking as to its sincerity and love. In Christ, I can recognize the love of God even in the midst of deception and impossibility. I may even see his love coming through, despite the intention of the one it comes through. After all, he is the giver of all good gifts, and it is HIS LIFE that we witness in this world. :)

Jim


      

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luvin
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the shovel wrote:
Adam wrote:

7/8/10

I am not sure were I am going with this but, I did want to comment on this one. You know, I have always tried to understand the ""Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh.." thing from just a purely analytical view point but, I am not so sure that this is the place it is derived from. I mean what if that statement had much more to do with WHO someone is than a WAY, technique, style, behavior, or rule of thought or deed? Well maybe it does encompass those things but, from a different reason. I mean what if the not judging according to the flesh has to do with who and what WE are? Are we not children of God? Holy? Cleansed? Are we to stand around judging exactly the same way in which we were dead in before we were made alive? Same thing with Paul and his gang[our brothers in the faith of Christ Jesus], he could not help but make this righteous judgment for it was WHO he now was in Him...it was part of his NEW clothing if you will I would suspect.


Adam, I'm loving how you are seeing the connection according to life, rather than as a technique! After all, how could we trust a flesh-based judgment of those around us? I mean, according to appearances this world puts on quite a show as it tries to convince those who are looking as to its sincerity and love. In Christ, I can recognize the love of God even in the midst of deception and impossibility. I may even see his love coming through, despite the intention of the one it comes through. After all, he is the giver of all good gifts, and it is HIS LIFE that we witness in this world. :)

Jim


Ha ha! ..And there you go again with that statement that just baffles me! I love it!  Yet I see it. For the Lord whom lives in me interprets all things. Even when and in the craziest of things. For things for US are not as they always appear. In fact they USUALLY aren't!


      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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luvin
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Posted: Jul-08-10 at 4:33pm | IP Logged  

Adam, I'm loving how you are seeing the connection according to life, rather than as a technique!-Jim


Yeah you know I usually just kind of scan over words like "technique" assuming it doesn't really apply but, honestly that's what it is and it actually describes our efforts quite well..that is..in the insanity.


      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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Mercy Man
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Posted: Jul-08-10 at 10:14pm | IP Logged  

Mercy Man wrote:
Connie wrote:

 Mercy Man,

that's such a weird story. Why don't you just come out and say what you want to say plainly? 



Hey, Connie.

The above little story is part fiction/part fact. Maybe the wannabe story writer raised its weird, malformed head. Could be. And I know, I won't give up my day job.

My wife did tell me that I needed to go see the doctor because of some symptoms (behaviours even more abnormal than normal) I was exhibiting.

At first I dismissed her pleadings, but it would have been foolish of me at any time to attribute her motives to anything beyond her love and care for me.

I didn't go see Doctor "Bilboo", but if I had to go a doctor (doctors = plague in my mind) I was tempted to find one who wouldn't put me through a battery of tests, because I wanted to believe everything was okay (I felt "fine").

Ultimately, my avoidance of the truth didn't make everything better. Neither did my symptoms (no matter how hard I tried to walk the line) disappear, as far as my wife was concerned.

I finally went to the doctor. Both of my brothers have adult onset diabetes, but that is the last thing that was on my mind, as I assumed that this ailment had no genetic source, but was solely associated with weight and diet (my brothers are both heavy set, and I am built more like a pool cue).

I relate this to issues of the soul. In my view, I think it bodes me well to recognize that, irregardless of my perfected spiritual union with Him,  I may have things that are not right in my body or soul, things that I can't or won't see, things that just aren't going to go away by themselves (including confessing or believing that I am whole, or inclining my ear to someone/anyone who will tell me that everything is hunky dorey).

In light of this thread, I think it will also serve me well not to dismiss, out of hand, any exhortation or pleading by a brother/sister/loved one, that there might be something possibly ailing my soul/body, and neither attribute only the worst of motives/mindset to their suggestion.

1Th 4:1  Finally then, brothers, we beg and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God, that you abound more and more.

1Pe 2:11  Beloved, I beg you as foreigners and pilgrims, to abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;


I can't help but comment on the above oh-so-wise counsel penned by me five years ago . Amazing how I see life so totally different now. Must have really mustered up some good choices with my "free will" to change my way of thinking....NOT! It's that door #1 thing that Bill wrote of years ago. In Him there is only door #1. Just a matter of coming to see it that way, which seems to be another door #1 thing in itself.


Edited by Mercy Man on Jul-08-10 at 10:17pm


      

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luvin
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Posted: Jul-08-10 at 10:40pm | IP Logged  

Mercy! Great to see you~!

WOW all kinds of Shack alumni!


Luvin


      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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Broken Link
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Posted: Jul-09-10 at 9:26am | IP Logged  

I wrote something? Man, I wish I had to time to write
anything right now! Mercy Man, good to see you!

      

Bill
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heretic - n 1: a person who holds beliefs in conflict with the dogma of the church.
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Broken Link
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Posted: Jul-09-10 at 9:31am | IP Logged  

Rest and Trust wrote:

...You asked about my chiropractors Ph#. I don't have
it here and we don't have the Sacramento phone book
here but his name is Taras Lumier and he works at the
office of Health Associates on Alta Arden a couple
blocks west of Watt...
I lived in Sacramento
too long growing up. I know where that is.

<-- lived in Rosemont (Watt and Folsom)

      

Bill
theHarryTick™
heretic - n 1: a person who holds beliefs in conflict with the dogma of the church.
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rickh
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Posted: Jul-09-10 at 1:49pm | IP Logged  

I lived in North Highlands for 3 years. Can't say I miss it.

      

rick
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luvin
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Posted: Jul-09-10 at 5:32pm | IP Logged  

What a small world..I lived in N.H. too Rick. For about 2 years or so when I was a boy. We lived in a track home area about 2 miles from the K-Part housing.

I also lived in Sacramento. Some family live out there still and I actually own a home still out in Roseville.[about 20 miles east of Sac.] In the process of short selling it now.


Adam


      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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csnarnia
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Posted: Jul-24-10 at 9:43am | IP Logged  

Wow! The Shack is a small world...I too used to live
in Roseville, CA...Had a lot of good times there.
Still have a number of good friends in the area,
including Robert C. Cooley...if anyone happens to know
who that is.

BTW, for those of you who read my dad's memoirs on the
board here...Just lettin you know I got a guy in LA
who is workin on the script.
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csnarnia
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Posted: Jul-24-10 at 9:46am | IP Logged  

BTW, I really do wish Dave S would learn to speak
plain American English...not that UK KJV stuff
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the shovel
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Posted: Jul-24-10 at 10:36am | IP Logged  

Hello Cris, it's good to see you pop your head in here from time to time. :)  You know, it is a small world, for while you used to LIVE in Roseville, I have HEARD of Roseville.  

      

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Dave S
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Posted: Jul-24-10 at 11:13am | IP Logged  

csnarnia wrote:
BTW, I really do wish Dave S would learn to speak
plain American English...not that UK KJV stuff

Gee whiz and foresooth, verily I'll trieth 

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luvin
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Posted: Jul-24-10 at 11:22am | IP Logged  

Dave your poetic writing is always so majestic sounding for sure! But I always enjoy it when you "break it down" once in a while too.

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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Dignz
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Posted: Jul-24-10 at 11:30am | IP Logged  

  aw now you guyz ... you are so funny!  




      

"afterall, he's not a tame lion"
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Dave S
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Posted: Jul-24-10 at 11:50am | IP Logged  

I hear ya,dude, I have no idea what to say, but I hear ya.
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luvin
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Posted: Jul-24-10 at 12:07pm | IP Logged  



      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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the shovel
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Posted: Jul-24-10 at 12:14pm | IP Logged  

Dave S wrote:
I hear ya,dude, I have no idea what to say, but I hear ya.


Now, THAT'S breaking it down without any of that UK KJV flavor!


      

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the shovel
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Posted: Jul-24-10 at 12:16pm | IP Logged  

Actually, I'm not too sure that "dude" qualifies as plain American English. Slang, for sure, but not plain American English. Verily, there are no dudes in the KJV.

      

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luvin
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Posted: Jul-24-10 at 2:42pm | IP Logged  



      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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Connie
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Posted: Jul-25-10 at 10:06am | IP Logged  

[

[/QUOTE]
I can't help but comment on the above oh-so-wise counsel penned by me five years ago . Amazing how I see life so totally different now. Must have really mustered up some good choices with my "free will" to change my way of thinking....NOT! It's that door #1 thing that Bill wrote of years ago. In Him there is only door #1. Just a matter of coming to see it that way, which seems to be another door #1 thing in itself.
[/QUOTE]

This is truth, and "dat's the truf" (mimicking one of Lily Tomlin's characters there)

Can't seem to escape seeing all things according to Christ. Not that I want to, mind you.



      

Connie
"Wow!It's so bright in here!"
II Cor.4:5-6

    
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Debi
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Posted: Oct-26-10 at 6:36pm | IP Logged  

If anyone has some time to read, this was an interesting & stimulating topic that Adam recently brought up again-great comments and some funnies too.

Here's page 1:
http://shovelshack.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=1459&PN=1& ; ;TPN=1

Here's just two samples (out of so many):

Dave S wrote:
What IS sin, anyway?

It is a lie that a  being is separated from the very source of it's being and it's complete union with that source.

IT wants to be the source and being the source, worshipped as the true source. It has been granted power for a season,but is NOT eternal. It's power is manifest in a place that is NOT eternal.

The true source sits in the eternal and laughs. In Him do we live and move and have our being.


Jim wrote:
The wisdom of the flesh considers all things according to the flesh ... it cannot tolerate any who will not join in with its fleshly judgments or answer its fleshly questions and demands about sin. Build a case according to sin and sin is what will be seen and forced upon all others. For myself, I have determined to know nothing among you except Christ and him crucified. You who do desire to join together in unity according to fleshly wisdom, no matter how spiritual or Biblical sounding, can bark and howl all you want ... just do it somewhere else.



Edited by Debi on Oct-26-10 at 6:37pm


      

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Dignz
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"For myself, I have determined to know nothing among you except Christ and him crucified. You who do desire to join together in unity according to fleshly wisdom, no matter how spiritual or Biblical sounding, can bark and howl all you want ... just do it somewhere else." <jim

whoa dude!  is that a shack quote anywhere yet?     barking and howling!    that's great and soooo true, isn't it?




      

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Dignz
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"... I believe that there is sin active in my flesh and a pharisee-ism sin could pop out as easily as any other that may be active in me ... I do not condemn myself ..." another post-er

dave s reply:

"yes I know you believe that, hence the continual references to right and wrong.

If God has put sin to death in the flesh and you reckon sin is active then it follows that you reckon that sin is not put to death in the flesh. And where does the idea come from that the Holy Spirit will help de-activate sin, when the Spirit has seen sin crucified, dead and buried.

Come out of her, come away from that whoreish mind that would have sin yet active.  (i LOVE that!  my comment )

I am not in the flesh, I am in Christ and Christ is in the flesh. You speak well of a deliverance to come, but deliverance is come and freedom by deliverance. I no longer live, Christ lives.

I AM is more than a notion and an adherence to doctrine.

You know not what you say, to mortify the deeds of the body is NOT to put away the activity of sin. How can Christ dwell in a temple where sin is active."
 
<"... things that God pushes you to do..."> another post-er

Dave S reply:

"Brother, your words drop around me like death, but greater is the Life in me.

You don't know me, if you knew me, you would know that God NEVER, ever "pushed" me to "do" anything. The God of this world tried AND failed so I recognize his voice.

He revealed His Son in me and it pleased Him to do that.  .... if you knew my Father you would see a continual smile on His face. Smiling is the fruit of being well pleased and He is WELL pleased."



another good sample.  too many to copy and paste, but ... the whole thread is quite something!  thank you for the link, deb! 


      

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Dignz
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i was also thinking about how it says somewhere:  whatever is not of faith is sin

any insight into that from anyone?  just curious about that.  it popped into my mind earlier today. 

i think i better go read it in context ... gotta go find it first  .  time time time ... so much to read and so little time time time ...

sighhhh ...







      

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"


Edited by luvin on Oct-26-10 at 11:13pm


      

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luvin
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Dignz wrote:
<span style="font-style: italic;
color: rgb(102, 0, 204);">"... I believe that there
is sin active in my flesh and a pharisee-ism sin
could pop out as easily as any other that may be
active in me ... I do not condemn myself</span><span
style="color: rgb(102, 0, 204);"> ..."
</span>another post-erdave s reply:<span
style="color: rgb(51, 51, 255);">"yes I know you
believe that, hence the continual references to
right and wrong. </span><br style="color: rgb(51,
51, 255);"><br style="color: rgb(51, 51,
255);"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 255);">If God
has put sin to death in the flesh and you reckon sin
is active then it follows that you reckon that sin
is not put to death in the flesh. And where does the
idea come from that the Holy Spirit will help de-
activate sin, when the Spirit has seen sin
crucified, dead and buried.</span><br style="color:
rgb(51, 51, 255);"><br style="color: rgb(51, 51,
255);"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 255);">Come
out of her, come away from that whoreish mind that
would have sin yet active</span>.  (i LOVE that!  my
comment )<br style="color: rgb(51, 51,
255);"><br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 255);"><span
style="color: rgb(51, 51, 255);">I am not in the
flesh, I am in Christ and Christ is in the flesh.
You speak well of a deliverance to come, but
deliverance <span style="font-weight:
bold;">is</span> come and freedom by deliverance. I
no longer live, <span style="font-weight:
bold;">Christ</span> lives.</span><br style="color:
rgb(51, 51, 255);"><br style="color: rgb(51, 51,
255);"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 255);">I AM
is more than a notion and an adherence to
doctrine.</span><br style="color: rgb(51, 51,
255);"><br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 255);"><span
style="color: rgb(51, 51, 255);">You know not what
you say, to mortify the deeds of the body is NOT to
put away the activity of sin. How can Christ dwell
in a temple where sin is active."</span> <span
style="color: rgb(102, 0, 204);"><</span><span
style="font-style: italic; color: rgb(102, 0,
204);">"... things that God pushes you to
do..."</span><span style="color: rgb(102, 0,
204);">> <span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">another
post-er</span></span>Dave S reply:<span
style="color: rgb(51, 51, 255);">"Brother, your
words drop around me like death, but greater is the
Life in me.</span><br style="color: rgb(51, 51,
255);"><br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 255);"><span
style="color: rgb(51, 51, 255);">You don't know me,
if you knew me, you would know that God NEVER, ever
"pushed" me to "do" anything. The God of this world
tried AND failed so I recognize his voice.</span><br
style="color: rgb(51, 51, 255);"><br style="color:
rgb(51, 51, 255);"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51,
255);">He revealed His Son in me and it pleased Him
to do that.  .... if you knew my Father you would
see a continual smile on His face. Smiling is the
fruit of being well pleased and He is WELL
pleased."</span>another good sample.  too many
to copy and paste, but ... the whole thread is quite
something!  thank you for the link, deb! 


Yes! This was excellent!



      

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Dave S on page 3 wrote:

I wonder if it has ever been considered that the pharisees also were of the mind that wanted God to work "through them" and also were convinced that God was working "through them" as the children of God.

What makes you think that " God working through us" and legalism are not partners in unity?

WOW, I had never considered this last statement in this light.

I hear the term "God working through us" used a lot and probably was using it myself sometimes.

The term ignores our union with Christ.

Dave S wrote:
Is there anything but CHRIST?  CHRIST is I AM.

The term puts a focus on "work". I remember thinking before really seeing Christ as my life, when is God going to do some "work" through me?

Thanks for this great insight Dave.


      

Debi
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the shovel
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Dignz wrote:
i was also thinking about how it says somewhere:  whatever is not of faith is sin

any insight into that from anyone?  just curious about that.  it popped into my mind earlier today.  i think i better go read it in context ... gotta go find it first  .  time time time ... so much to read and so little time time time ...    sighhhh ...


Hello Sherri,

You had asked about the phrase "whatever is not of faith is sin". Here's the passage it comes from:

So then each one of us shall give account of himself to God. Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this — not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way. I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died. Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. So then let us pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another. Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense. It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles. The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin. (Romans 14:12-23)

Many get distracted by the matter of eating and drinking discussed in this passage, as if that's what it's all about. However, consider how Paul wrote: "...for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." Something about what they ate and drank turned into an issue that got in the way of how they regarded one another. Some understood that nothing is truly unclean of itself, but others couldn't get past their belief that it was morally wrong to eat or drink certain things. The offense Paul referred to did not describe some kind of disdain, such as is associated with religious or moral snobs who make sure it is known how offended they are by what another is doing, wearing or eating and drinking. Not at all. The offense is found in the man who is torn because he is being encouraged to do the very thing he perceives as evil.

"But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin." Romans 14:23

But who is condemning him?

"Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves." Romans 14:22

The condemnation comes from one's own perceptions. The one who does something not of faith, that is, not in a clear conscience because of Christ is in his own mind sinning. The fact that it is in his own mind does not make it somehow okay, because it affects him as if it was real. To him, this is the only way it can be viewed, by you, by me, and by God. What he chooses to do will follow him around as if God were the one pursuing him. No doubt we could pass it off as being the necessary path he needs to take in order to experience God's grace at the end of it, but the issue Paul presents has to do with faith working through love. Confidence removes the fear and sense of condemnation, but it's the confidence of those who are happy because they do not condemn themselves in what they approve that must bear the weaknesses of those who do condemn themselves in so many things.

"Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this — not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way."

This was addressing that sense of confidence that looks down on those who doubt, rather than of the faith that recognizes our mutual fellowship in Christ. The judgment Paul refers to comes from an arrogance brought on by an intellectual knowledge.

"All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense. It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles. The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God."

Notice how this refers to the man who eats and GIVES offense. This is not about someone being offended simply because they found out that you ate something that gave them a problem, it comes across as being more direct. This comes from the mind that disregards his brother's doubting mind. Here too, the perception of evil is found because the so-called confidence is actually about an arrogance brought on by a sense of superiority created by intellectual knowledge by which the seemingly confident one is judging his brother (as hinted to earlier). If I am judging, I have to be using some kind of comparison by which to do so, which means that I am caught up in an alternate kind of sin-consciousness as in the one who is doubting.

Now that was a rather long response to a very short query, wasn't it? :)

Jim


Edited by the shovel on Nov-03-10 at 1:59pm


      

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Dignz
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hey wow!  i got a response from the shovel dude himself!       thanx!     

"But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin." Romans 14:23

But who is condemning him?  <-jim

"Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves." Romans 14:22

"The condemnation comes from one's own perceptions."  <-jim

i could not seem to find that passage for some reason on a search site i was using. i was not using the right words in the right sequence or something.   and then the demands of the day called me away before i could get into searching more carefully.     so, thanx for the reference.    very helpful indeed!  and for the insight!  i love it!  and appreciate it very much!   





Edited by Dignz on Nov-02-10 at 2:37am


      

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mary
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   Jim, speak on!  How I love this!  Love hearing you share on the Shack!


      

Mary
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luvin
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"All things indeed are clean, but they are EVIL for the man who EATS and GIVES OFFENSE. It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles. The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God."

How weird! I had never noticed that before? Well maybe once upon a time but, not in many years had I considered that? I guess that is a crucial,crucial point yah ?

Yes I see it here. There IS that sense of arroagance in this passage. I see this same thing in the world. This same exact attitude. The ole'...'ahyyyeh..just get over it'. I love how you were carfeful to point out that Paul was NOT talking about others snooping around and being offended by your freedom in Christ. That is a HUGE difference. It draws out a much different point than we are used to hearing about this passage? For it must be a matter of life or death in the true and living sense.

Once again you amaze me with this brother. I mean these things are the thngs that lie deep beneath the surface of appearance. For it is all too easy to view these portions of scripture after the same exact elemental wisdom found in the deadness of this world. Yes we would skip right over this. WE DO skip right over it!

 

 

Jim, one question. Is this in any way tied in to the 'submitting to governing authorites'? The ol'e keep your elbows off the table when at Aunt Sue's? Or would this be a little different?[in terms of were it is going]

 

A



      

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the shovel
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luvin wrote:
Jim, one question. Is this in any way tied in to the 'submitting to governing authorities'? The ol'e keep your elbows off the table when at Aunt Sue's? Or would this be a little different?[in terms of were it is going]
A


I don't see them as being similar at all. I rather see a comment from Paul like the one below to touch on keeping elbows off the table at Aunt Susie's:

If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. (Romans 12:18)



The submission to government has to do with the recognition that all authority comes from God.

Jim



      

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Debi
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Thanks Jim for this explanation, it was very INSIGHTFUL!

Your responses are never too long, but I will be reading it several times to really take it all in.

Your explanation impresses upon me again how the whole context always needs to be considered.

Jim wrote:
Confidence removes the fear and sense of condemnation, but it's the confidence of those who are happy because they do not condemned themselves in what they approve that must bear the weaknesses of those who do condemn themselves in so many things.

and

This was addressing that sense of confidence that looks down on those who doubt, rather than of the faith that recognizes our mutual fellowship in Christ.


When we realize it is God who opens our eyes and gives us His faith there is nothing to be arrogant or superior about or no need to "disregard our brother's doubting mind", yes?




      

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luvin
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the shovel wrote:
luvin wrote:
Jim, one question. Is this in any way tied in to the 'submitting to governing authorities'? The ol'e keep your elbows off the table when at Aunt Sue's? Or would this be a little different?[in terms of were it is going]
A


I don't see them as being similar at all. I rather see a comment from Paul like the one below to touch on keeping elbows off the table at Aunt Susie's:

If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. (Romans 12:18)



The submission to government has to do with the recognition that all authority comes from God.

Jim

 

 

Hi Jim,

 

I am a bit tired since I am traveling across the state right now, so forgive me if I again make no sense!. But, I find it interesting that the submission to governing authorities is encouraged when in fact most of those 'authorities' quite often ARE corrupt. You had pointed that out somewhere else[IN ANOTHER LETTER] and I really appreciated your view point on it. I guess the thought always comes up that the governing auithorities seem to rule themselves and us and it is all connected to the elemental world which we are removed from but still walking through. I think it is easy to assume since we are supposed to 'submit;' to government as unto God, that we are somhow DEFINED by it. Also it is easy to assume since God[Paul] is demanding our submission to the authority set up by Him ,that He Himself is dispensing evil.[ie: the corruptness of many governments]



      

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the shovel
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Debi wrote:


When we realize it is God who opens our eyes and gives us His faith there is nothing to be arrogant or superior about or no need to "disregard our brother's doubting mind", yes?




Debi, yes, that is the simple truth of the matter.  :)


      

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Be safe in your travels dear brother. 

Ron


      

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gregoryfl wrote:
Be safe in your travels dear brother. 

Ron

 

 

 

 

Ron! Thanks so much...it actually has been a hairy trip so far. Although it has been beautiful scenery. in fact it might be up there with say my top 2 or 3 places I have EVER been. Who knows, it might just be the most beautiful place.  Simply stunning.



      

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luvin
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Wow, I really was tired.lol

Well now I am back..just got in here at 9pm...long
day[week] lot's of planes and cars and craziness.

Anyway, Jim I meant to ask you a question!
Just a request that you might share a little on how
you see the life of Christ in us in relation to the
'governing bodies' we are submitting to while
passing through this earth? Hey if you have time..or
interest.



Bro,
Adam

      

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luvin
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"All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for
the man who eats and gives offense. It is good not
to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by
which your brother stumbles. The faith which you
have, have as your own conviction before God."

Notice how this refers to the man who eats and GIVES
offense. This is not about someone being offended
simply because they found out that you ate something
that gave them a problem, it comes across as being
more direct. This comes from the mind that
disregards his brother's doubting mind. Here too,
the perception of evil is found because the so-
called confidence is actually about an arrogance
brought on by a sense of superiority created by
intellectual knowledge by which the seemingly
confident one is judging his brother (as hinted to
earlier). If I am judging, I have to be using some
kind of comparison by which to do so, which means
that I am caught up in an alternate kind of sin-
consciousness as in the one who is doubting.

Now that was a rather long response to a very short
query, wasn't it? :)

Jim


INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH I JUST REMEMBER BEING
ENCOURAGED[DECADES AGO] THAT TO DO 'ANYTHING IN
WHICH YOUR BROTHER STUMBLES' WAS NOT TO DO WITH A
LEGAL FRAME OF MIND BUT RATHER SOME SORT OF
ALTERNATIVE 'GRACE' ATTITUDE THAT ESSENTIALLY MADE
US INTROSPECTIVE.[YES THE LEGAL MIND IN DISGUISE] WE
WERE THRUSTED INTO LOOKING FOR 'WHAT WOULD OFFEND'.
IN FACT I AM SURE IT WAS JUST ALONG THE LINES AS THE
POPULAR 'AVOID ALL APPEARANCES OF EVIL' STUFF THAT
ONCE WAS SO POPULAR IN IN CHRISTIANDOME SOME YEARS
AGO. IT SUPPORTS THE IDEA OF LIVING A LIFE OF
FLESHLY 'NICENESS' AND 'CONSIDERATION' TO EVERYBODY
AND EVERYTHING WHILE ALL THE WHILE ATTEMPTING TO
SUBMIT TO SOMETHING THAT WE CAN NOT REALLY PEG DOWN
OR EVEN SEE.

I SUPPOSE THAT IS THE WHOLE THING. WE ASSUME [IN
FEAR] THAT THIS MUST DEMAND SOME SORT OF
HYPERCRITICAL SELF AWARENESS TO ACCOMPLISH AND YET
IT IS PROBABLY MORE LIKE WAITING ON GOD FOR HIM TO
REVEAL WHAT HE WANTS TO ABOUT OUR STRUGGLING
BROTHER.[WHEN WE ARE FACED WITH IT AND DON'T SEE IT]
FOR IF HE WANTS US TO SEE SOMETHING, THERE IS NO
REASON TO GO RUNNING OUT AFTER READING THIS AND
SEEKING TO ROUTE OUT ALL SIN IN OUR SELVES.[LIKE THE
SIN OF 'OFFENDING' OUR STUMBLING BRO]

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

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