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Biblical Interpretation
 Shovel Shack : Biblical Interpretation
Subject Topic: Question reg "Sin-Consciousness"
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Debi
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Posted: Aug-26-10 at 7:34pm | IP Logged  

Someone ask Jim a question about an article entitled "Sin-Consciousness" from 4/99 from the section of
1 Cor 10 & 11-about the Lord's supper and judgment and many being weak and sick & many sleeping (supposedly meaning death) and that some interpretations lead people to make distinctions between judicial forgiveness and fellowship forgiveness. (Sorry for that long sentence) So if we don't hold to this distinction how would one "handle" this section?

I remember when I saw the truth of this section and how it had been taken out of context and used to keep us in line through fear of being judged and disciplined (even possibly dieing.)
I remember thinking WOW, I'd better reread the whole Bible with my "new mind" on my own.

I love what Jim says below.

Jim wrote:
Take heart!  You don't need to be a "scholar".  The real understanding comes from revelation.  Those who don't RESIST God's revelation of grace may not know what all the words mean, but they do know that the written word is not going to contradict the reality of Christ.


And this is a good summary of what those passages were saying:

The picture of the wine: NO SIN THROUGH CHRIST

The unworthy partaking of the wine: FOCUSED ON SIN THROUGH MAN

The picture of the bread: UNITY THROUGH CHRIST

The unworthy partaking of the bread: FACTIONS THROUGH MAN



      

Debi
"Truth is not the sum total of all true things, but is instead a person & His name is Jesus & He has become our LIFE."
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the shovel
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Posted: Aug-27-10 at 3:22pm | IP Logged  

Hello Debi :)

I'm currently continuing with that discussion on sin-consciousness in the comments section (where I'm assuming you found the above links), though it's not posted yet. I love the whole distinction implied by the phrase "sin-consciousness" because it really cuts to the chase. After all, how can you even discuss sin if you're viewing it according to the insanity of the mind of bondage? All the fears and insecurities of that mind distort everything.

I love watching others recognize the difference in viewing all things according to the mind of Christ, rather than that futile reasoning that seeks out every little nuance of the old sin-controlled existence. We can read, and even study, without having to view any of it according to the darkness of that former logic. :)

Jim


      

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luvin
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Posted: Aug-27-10 at 4:10pm | IP Logged  

..well that's funny..I am currently reading a print
out on 'sin consciousness'! !

It has seemed to grab hold of so many through the
viewing all of things in accordance with the
natural,legal mind. Including me.

I always avoided people who had used that phrase
because of the many 'grace' folks that viewed it
simply as a way to think or not think.[as a way of
thinking]

Jim I have really been sensing a spirit of joy in
reading your words on the matter. I sense that same
joy in you.

Adam

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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Debi
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Posted: Aug-28-10 at 3:41pm | IP Logged  

Thanks Jim, appreciated what you said.

Jim wrote:
All the fears and insecurities of that mind distort everything.

and

Quote:
We can read, and even study, without having to view any of it according to the darkness of that former logic. :)


      

Debi
"Truth is not the sum total of all true things, but is instead a person & His name is Jesus & He has become our LIFE."
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Dignz
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Posted: Aug-31-10 at 11:13am | IP Logged  

i have been trying to get to this thread and to post for days and i just can't get to it.  i get to corinthians to read but i only get to read a couple of sentences and then i am interrupted by one thing or another.  my brain needs a LOT of time to think, ponder and digest.  too often i don't take that time and i don't digest properly and end up just 'spewing' chunks of goofy this and that.  i need more time than i have right now.  i want to read corinthians and participate in this, but ... this week is simply not allowing for it.  just so you know, deb ... i have enjoyed everything thus far on the thread.  i just wish i had more time this week ... this month ... this year ... this life.    too many things to get to and 'finish' and ... blah blah blah ... wah wah wah .... 

sighhhh ....

hopefully soon ... sooon .... sooooooon   ???????????

i almost always have to go back to the very beginning of letters written by the apostles so that i have a better understanding of the context and a little better idea of who is talking to who about what, etc.  i always get in trouble in my heart and mind when i just read something pulled out of a whole context.  all kinds of fear, guilt and shame can crop up and rob my heart, mind and thoughts of confidence and assurance that is only found in him and the new that he has made me.

ironically, that is exactly what paul was addressing, i believe to the corinthians.  i love this part: 

1 Cor. 1:30-31 ~ But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."

this suggests to me that paul was concerned about there NOT being boasting IN THE LORD, but instead there was boasting in just about anything and everything else, which means they were pretty much viewing things through the mind of the world and flesh.  there were divisions among them because they viewed one another with the natural mind of man, and that will always cause division and separation.  naturally.  there is no real division in the body of christ.  the divisions in the mind concerning the body of christ are from delusional thinking that comes from the lies which have their source in the father of all lies ... the lie-ing one ... the liar of all liars ... the lie-ing marvel ... the lie-ing wonder ... the one who can do nothing else but spin his webs with the distortion and twisting and manipulating of truth into a lie.  he is sooo creative and intricate with it all.  grrrrr ....

i think paul addresses these lies, delusions, illusions adn their subsequent boastings all through-out his letter.  i sure wish i could get to the rest of it ... i am only up to chapter 3 and with so many things to do in-between i have to keep going back in order to remember where i was.  as you can imagine, i don't get very far these days!  




      

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the shovel
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Posted: Aug-31-10 at 5:40pm | IP Logged  

Quote:
this suggests to me that paul was concerned about there NOT being boasting IN THE LORD, but instead there was boasting in just about anything and everything else, which means they were pretty much viewing things through the mind of the world and flesh.


Sherri, this is an excellent statement. Paul also said the same to the Galatians:

But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another.
(Galatians 6:4)

While this statement is often misunderstood as giving cause to boast in the flesh, it exactly declares the opposite. Notice how the boasting is said to be in regard to one's own work but having nothing whatsoever to do with any kind of outside comparison. Pause for a moment and consider how the very nature of fleshly boasting only has meaning in relation to others. This boasting is as far as east is from west from boasting as it is understood by the mind of man. Now notice how Paul wrote that at the examination of one's own work he WILL have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone. There are no ifs regarding to what we discover when examine our own work in Christ, for after all, he is our life and we live by faith in him.

Jim :)


      

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Dignz
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Posted: Aug-31-10 at 8:53pm | IP Logged  

shovel dude ~  thanx ...

deb ... i know this seems far away from chapters 10 and 11, but ... i have to work up to them.    all of it can conjure up fear, guilt and shame when read through conditioned religious interpretations without taking context into consideration.  even without conditioned religious interpretations ... just reading it with a conditioned mind of understandings from the world we live in.  you said it very well when you mentioned  re-reading with our new minds. 

for instance:  ch. 3 ~  "... For we (i think he means himself, apollos and cephas from the context?) are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building ... According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it."

i am enjoying reading what paul has to say as one who was an apostle who had his heart deeply attached to the corinthians as he was the very one who brought the message of christ to them, and as one who was very disheartened that they had been so effected by others who had come in amongst them, or some who were always amongst them either boasting of themselves and their works, or being put up on pedestals by others who wanted to have someone to follow and as to be led by their noses, etc.  he wanted to remind them of the very foundation which he himself laid, who was christ.  others were building carelessly and irresponsibly with lies, deception, selfishness and greed, upon the foundation laid by paul originally.  he delineated for them the result of the quality work being laid upon that foundation ... either productive work that would last the test of fire, or absolute futility which would be proven by the same fire as being burnt up to ash and nothingness.

we can read that and feel waves of fear wash over us as we wonder if our building-works are futile or lasting, and we wonder what ARE the building-works that last?  right?

that fear can cause us to miss what paul was clearly encouraging them in.  any one who made boast of anything other than belonging to christ by his working in them and that they all had the SAME BOAST in HIM, was a work that was futile and would be burnt up.  a complete waste of heart, mind and time.  

i don't know about you, but i have no desire to waste any more of my time here in the temporal with religious fallacies and arguments over doctrines, principles, this, that and the other, and anything that has NOTHING to do with me, you and christ! 

".... let no one boast in men, for all things belong to you, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come; all things belong to you, and you belong to Christ, and Christ belongs to God."







Edited by Dignz on Sep-01-10 at 7:20pm


      

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luvin
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Posted: Aug-31-10 at 9:10pm | IP Logged  

Very well said Dignz! I love the backdrop you used
with the arrogance circling around among them in
things and in men. It really draws attention to why
Paul WAS speaking about boasting in THE LORD![not
men]I see it! Very cool!


Love,

Adam

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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Dignz
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Posted: Aug-31-10 at 9:18pm | IP Logged  

it is soooo wonderful to 'see it' isn't it?  like a breath of fresh cool mountain air!!  ahhhh ...






      

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luvin
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Posted: Aug-31-10 at 9:23pm | IP Logged  

indeed...yes just like an fresh ocean wave of sea and
land!

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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Dignz
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Posted: Sep-01-10 at 1:25pm | IP Logged  

 21  So then let no one boast in men for all things belong to you  (1 Cor. 3:21)

i love that ... for we have no reason to boast in any other than christ himself.  it is in him and because of him that we have all things pertaining to god and godliness ... all the riches of god in christ jesus ... his love, his righteousness, his ... well ... his EVERY-thing.  paul encouraged them in this right from the very beginning of the letter.  they were thinking that they were lacking and that these other men had what they lacked, so they followed them having been duped. 

he encouraged them for instance:

you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.  God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord







      

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luvin
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Posted: Sep-01-10 at 2:46pm | IP Logged  

I liked this!



Edited by luvin on Sep-01-10 at 2:47pm


      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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Dignz
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Posted: Sep-02-10 at 6:38am | IP Logged  

i made it to chapter 10!   FInally!  

i love paul's emphasis especially in verses 18 - 20 ~  the words SHARERS!  really, the emphasis all through his writing really was about being SHARERS together in and with christ ... TOGETHER.  sharers together with the one and only true god ... one table, one drink, one bread, one body, one person -  CHRIST. 

the one and only true unifier that blows the divisions in the body all away is christ himself.  it is in him and because of him alone that we have union and true unity together as one.  it is a miracle union to be sure.  it is a union each and all in the body of christ share ... a reality, not a temporary condition.    we know from whom our true freedom originates and reigns. 




Edited by Dignz on Sep-02-10 at 9:41pm


      

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luvin
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Posted: Sep-02-10 at 10:49am | IP Logged  

Some interesting thoughts Dignz.

I have some very random thoughts just to through out
here...

I have not studied the letter with this in mind but,
either way one thing I can say from my vantage point
is that bondage IS very emotional. Freedom IS very
emotional too..but, it is also effective to the mind
and the physical[and spirit] and whatever else you
can say we are are made up of. Same with
bondage.[not just emotional you know? I KNOW you
know that!]

I see the Christian world hanging on to sensations
because of a looking to the flesh to satisfy. I
should know, I was one who came out of this
lifestyle myself and because I sensed the disruptive
inconsistency with the Truth of my inner being, left
the situation eventually. Chasing feelings and or
chasing knowledge leaves us to the flesh, and we now
know that. The elemental mind might turn this
conversation into "have NO knowledge...have NO
feelings". But that is not at all what we are
sharing. No! Because the desires of Christ are much
deeper and greater than these 'chasings'. Are
they not? I can just see the war now with the
"charismatics" vs. "Bareans"..who is better? More
close to God? The 'feelers' say the 'studiers' are
boring,dead and without life. The 'studiers' say the
feelers are fanatical, without Truth and
'irresponsible'! He he..they might both have a valid
point in the temporal sense. Truth is we have
been given sanity of mind to know that chasing after
ANYTHING is not what God called us to. For we have
in Him everything our inner being truly needs.The
'chasing' most likely comes from that of the law.
For we DO need these inner things in us going
on..but what we do not see is the legal puppet
master driving the confusion of what appears to us
today. Think about that..'chasing'...what's up with
that? What introduced this chasing? hmmm? Law maybe?

Truth is the testimony of those who brought us the
Gospel of grace, testified to the fact that we have
many feelings and many new desires..and that our WHOLE BEING has been effected by this new life. What
is a whole being? It is everything!

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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Dignz
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Posted: Sep-02-10 at 1:23pm | IP Logged  

yes  the heart and the mind we have been given in and as the new creation can only express out of who he is.  anything else is from the old that we no longer are.  i believe this to be what paul was reminding the body of in corinth.  there was much crisis of identity ... who was who and who had what 'power', who was worthy, who was 'more' worthy, who was not, etc.  who was to be followed and listened to.  who had the 'reputation'.  etc. etc.

paul did not speak to them from the wisdom of the world with all its cerebral-ness and/or its various sensations and/or sensationalisms used by religion, paganism or whatever you want to call it.  he spoke from the heart and mind of christ TO the heart and mind of christ from and with and by the same spirit of god they all shared in the same body. 

  


Edited by Dignz on Sep-02-10 at 9:48pm


      

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luvin
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Posted: Sep-02-10 at 6:23pm | IP Logged  

Hi there!
I ALWAYS know that your heart is to encourage and I
really just see that in this. As far as the
specifics,
like I said, I just don't have the clarity of it all
that you or others may have on it as of yet. It's
just
what my mind went to when I read you. I like
though what it brought out in BOTH of us and our
respective posts though. I see unity in them. Don't
you?


PS:[edit] let me know if there is anything of what I
wrote I can explain better k?

Edited by luvin on Sep-02-10 at 6:27pm


      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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Debi
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Posted: Sep-02-10 at 7:55pm | IP Logged  

Enjoying the comments here. I had a headache for two days and my mind has been in a fog and feels like an old mind right now and I don't think I can write much that will make sense. (But maybe it's always that way and I just don't know it.)

What's great about the shovel shack is what you said Sherri:

Sherri wrote:
he spoke from the heart and mind of Christ TO the heart and mind of Christ

and

Quote:
SHARERS together in and with Christ ... TOGETHER.


And great point Adam:

Adam wrote:
Truth is we have been given sanity of mind to know that chasing after ANYTHING is not what God called us to. For we have in Him everything our inner being truly needs.


      

Debi
"Truth is not the sum total of all true things, but is instead a person & His name is Jesus & He has become our LIFE."
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luvin
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Posted: Sep-02-10 at 9:10pm | IP Logged  

Yes she made some fantastic encouragements didn't
she?/!!!! I love em!!

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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Dignz
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Posted: Sep-02-10 at 9:53pm | IP Logged  

no probs adam ... i just blathered too much in places so i deleted it.  it just caused messy, muddy confusion that i never intended.  it really reveals my own muddy, messy confusion at times.  

i very much enjoyed what you had to share, adam. 

gosh, deb, i sure hope you feel better real soon.  sorry to hear of your pain.  i am quite the useless wuss when it comes to pain.  i hope and pray for blessed relief for you. 




      

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Dignz
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Posted: Sep-02-10 at 9:58pm | IP Logged  

a little something concerning the bondage of sin-consciousness: i quote below ... 


"As you go through your day and are remembering your sins ... remember CHRIST, AND HIM CRUCIFIED instead.

Have a shovelacious day!    :) :)   Love, Jim"






      

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luvin
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Posted: Sep-02-10 at 10:04pm | IP Logged  

That is VERY helpful Sher, Thanks for this!

Hey..I also wanted to say I hope my posting didn't
cause you to erase/edit yours? REALLY it was very
helpful! You made some great points!! Now do I have to
go and call you and bug you about that or what? lol
x10!

Adam

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

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luvin
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Posted: Sep-03-10 at 9:01am | IP Logged  

oh and I REALLY know of the muddy confusion you speak
of..kind of comes with the territory.

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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Dignz
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Posted: Sep-03-10 at 10:30am | IP Logged  

you stimulated me to think, re-think, and re-evaluate things i typed.  i deleted what i felt was really just extra 'fluff' that could be done without and yet still say better what i wanted to express.    that's all. 

considering my habits of thinking and dwelling, i could do that with just about anything and everything i type and could eventually, i suppose, think it into oblivion, concluding that i could just delete it all and it would be better.      <-round and round the mind goes until ...  and then ... .    

now if only i was able to do that beFORE things came OUT OF MY MOUTH!         i can't take words back once they are released.  they do their damage when i least expect it and then they are there in the hearts of whoever 'heard'.  that is a challenge in and of itself, as everyone filters words through their own interpretations, perceptions, impressions, experiences, feelings, reasonings, rationales, etc.   communication is complicated to say the least.

i KNOW this and yet i will still blather and regurgitate over and over again.  it is true that some of us work things out better by 'thinking out loud' sometimes, but ... that manages to confuse everyone else around us, unless and/or until they learn to 'tune us out'. 

i NEED the challenge and the encouragement to rethink what i may not have thought necessarily enough about before saying, posting, etc.  so really, no worries mate.  (she says with her best australian accent, which isn't really all that great, but .. you get the picture

okay ... moving right along with this day ... lots to do ... lots to do ...




Edited by Dignz on Sep-03-10 at 10:33am


      

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Debi
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Posted: Sep-04-10 at 1:09pm | IP Logged  

Thanks Sherri for the thoughts. The headache is finally better-something I've always put up with but they are getting less in my older age (well, one good thing so far about getting older)and I keep trying things diet wise-no gluten for now.

I always find your ramblings lead to gems! Plus, your posts are more like if you were sitting and talking to us versus writing something.


      

Debi
"Truth is not the sum total of all true things, but is instead a person & His name is Jesus & He has become our LIFE."
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Dignz
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Posted: Sep-04-10 at 2:29pm | IP Logged  

my hubby can soooo relate with your headache issues, debi!    i am sure you guyz are not alone.  i know that our friend and brother here on the shack, simpleton suffers horrible headaches with nary a break from them, if i understand correctly.    horrible suffering indeed!    i am always ready to rejoice with those whose suffering either ends or breaks to any degree for blessed relief, if and when at all possible! 






      

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csnarnia
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Posted: Sep-11-10 at 7:48pm | IP Logged  

This is a great discussion for me. It is revelation
knowledge for me to understand what it means to "boast
in the Lord"....what he has done in me...not what I
have done...and all the comparisons that go with. It
is a breath of fresh air....God bless you all for
enabling me to see this.

      

"We are not on the road to success...we are on the success road." Coach Frosty Westering
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luvin
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Posted: Sep-11-10 at 8:50pm | IP Logged  

csnarnia wrote:
This is a great discussion for me.
It is revelation
knowledge for me to understand what it means to
"boast
in the Lord"....what he has done in me...not what I
have done...and all the comparisons that go with. It
is a breath of fresh air....God bless you all for
enabling me to see this.



SHACK QUOTE!!!



      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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Dignz
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Posted: Sep-11-10 at 11:12pm | IP Logged  

i happily and thankfully enjoy and breathe in that same fresh air with you!      

      

"afterall, he's not a tame lion"
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