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Biblical Interpretation
 Shovel Shack : Biblical Interpretation
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realrestisbest
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Posted: Dec-20-05 at 12:47pm | IP Logged  

Shacksters,

I was wondering if anyone knows what grieving the holy spirit means????  I have read the scripture in the bible but I believe that I have misinterpeted it because of what I have previously learned from the church.  How would this fit in in regards to grace??????

Real


Edited by realrestisbest on Dec-20-05 at 12:50pm
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HarryTick
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Posted: Dec-20-05 at 2:55pm | IP Logged  

Indeed, how would it fit in regards to grace?!

How would you interpret it now, Real?

      

Love,
Bill
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heretic - n 1: a person who holds beliefs in conflict with the dogma of churches.
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realrestisbest
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Posted: Dec-20-05 at 3:45pm | IP Logged  

Well, I hate to sound dull Bill but I'm not really sure what it means.  But I think the way the modern day church defines it would be a total denial of the true gospel.  But now that I am not under law but rather in Christ.  I wonder what the true meaning is behind scriptures such as these.



Real


Edited by realrestisbest on Dec-20-05 at 3:50pm
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the shovel
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Posted: Dec-20-05 at 6:20pm | IP Logged  

Some thoughts:

Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Eph 4:30


Take a quick look at the meaning of "grieve":
Break the heart of; cause to feel sorrow.
To cause to be sorrowful; distress
To mourn or sorrow for:
To hurt or harm

The meaning of grieving is something you and I also know within ourselves: emotional pain, distress, sorrow, or heartbreak. But what distresses or breaks the heart of God? Many speculate based upon Biblical precepts, and while there's nothing wrong with such precepts I think Paul's main reason for writing what he did gets overlooked. Not only that, but the usual reason this verse gets brought up makes Paul's statement blown out of proportion and turns it into something altogether.

Look at the placement of this "grieve not the Holy Spirit of God" statement. The context is all about how we deal with one another. This is not about grieving God as an individual, it is about grieving God's SPIRIT, the one by whom we are joined together in one body. I know many have found personal salvation comfort in the statement "by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption", but the overwhelming sense of "you" is less individual and more corporeal (of the body as a whole). In Christ we were all sealed together in this life.

Everything Paul had written up to this point is a testimony of our common life together in Christ. And it should be overwhelmingly obvious that the reality of union and unity and oneness is found all throughout the letter. Here at this point he was contrasting their former manner of life with their new life in Christ. The former is totally antagonistic and divisive to life itself, while the new self "has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth". The grieving of God's righteous and holy spirit is directed at the disunity that seeks to rip the one body apart.  As we consider one another it must be in recognition of having been joined together in Christ, through God's spirit. The only other option is to see one another according to the flesh, which in turn causes us to view ourselves in the very same way ... despite all our words to the contrary.

Jim


      

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dave
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Posted: Dec-20-05 at 7:17pm | IP Logged  

"The only other option is to see one another according to the flesh, which in turn causes us to view ourselves in the very same way ... despite all our words to the contrary."

Very interesting...how many times I view others according to the flesh and not even realize that it is thus inevitable for me to view myself according to the flesh as well.

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realrestisbest
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Posted: Dec-20-05 at 9:19pm | IP Logged  

Thanks Jim I appreciate you sharing that with us.  This was one of the subjects that alot of churches seem to pervert.



Real
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Joyce
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Posted: Dec-20-05 at 10:40pm | IP Logged  

What about the unbelievers?   Do we view them according to the flesh or according to the Spirit?

Joyce

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dave
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Posted: Dec-20-05 at 11:43pm | IP Logged  

"from now on I view NO man according to the flesh"...Paul

So if we don't view anyone according to the flesh...then there cannot be any reason to compare and judge.

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evelina
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Posted: Dec-21-05 at 12:13am | IP Logged  

 How about judging righteously?  I can't say I understand all of this. 

We just went through an incident where we've been unfairly and falsely accused and having somewhat of a hard time getting past it.  How are we to look at these people?  We've been hurt and are still angry at them.

Evelina

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the shovel
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evelina wrote:

 How about judging righteously?  I can't say I understand all of this. 

We just went through an incident where we've been unfairly and falsely accused and having somewhat of a hard time getting past it.  How are we to look at these people?  We've been hurt and are still angry at them.

Evelina



"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."
(John 7:24 NASB)

To judge according to appearance is to judge according to the flesh. Such judgment thinks it can achieve a place of being called righteous by making sure it establishes itself as being in the right and another as the legitimate offender. Fleshly judgment establishes itself upon technicalities and will use those technicalities to prove its own rightness. This is why it is impossible to let these "righteous" fleshly judgments go. Instead, according to fleshly wisdom we learned that "time heals all wounds", not allowing ourselves to realize that older wounds get overshadowed and sometimes replaced by newer wounds making us suppose it just went away. We all know what it is to judge this way, it is all we knew before.

To judge according to Christ IS to judge righteously. It is the only possibility by which everything can be seen for what it is. Life is life, death is death. What else do we expect? What other rationale? Where else can we turn to see things as they are except in Christ. And in him we come to realize that all the technicalities in the world by which we might judge another do nothing more than to prove to us that there is no true right in any judgments we make according to appearance.

"Father, forgive them for they do not know what they do!" They THINK they know, we THOUGHT we knew ... and often even STILL THINK we know. But it is all a dead end street. In the end, according to righeous fleshly judgment, we would only find ourselves to be the same sinners we judge others to be.

Jim


      

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Connie
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Posted: Dec-21-05 at 8:51am | IP Logged  

Well, then, at least...can we not judge something as being in life or in death?    In one of the corinthian letters didn't Paul say a spiritual man judges all things and yet he is not subject to any judgement? 

      

Connie
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the shovel
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Hi Connie!

Dead or alive, this is the simplicity of true judgment. We know what comes out of the one. And we know that all legal attempts to extract life out of that which is dead is useless. Consider where Paul also wrote to the Corinthians:

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
(2 Corinthians 4:3-4 NASB)

The unbelieving simply can't see it, for it is veiled. End discussion. This simple judgment if riddled all through his letter to the Corinthians. The one mind cannot understand the other. When we see things, including offenders against us, for what they are we also recognize the futility of trying to hold on to the old fleshly wisdom that would make us look better than they. Are we going to be unfairly treated and falsely accused? According to the flesh there is no other recourse but to do so, and if we were to know how often that happened against us we would probably be undone.

When we who have been given the mind of Christ take heed to the lie that keeps insisting that there is justification to be found within the realm of fleshly, appearance-based logic it begins to appear reasonable to us. Next thing you know we're caught in a vicious cycle of comparison. It really gets ugly after that despite any attempt to put a better face on it.

The new cannot be subject to the judgment of the old. Who we REALLY are is not subject to any judgment of the appearance-based world, not even when we are the one saying it.

Jim


      

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Joyce
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I've notice more than once now how there will be different threads on the shack, even under different main topic areas, but they are all pointing to the same thing.... kind of like God is relating to us a certain truth, but saying it in different ways at the same time.  (This in relation to the "Garden" thread.)

Anyway, I think I understand what is being said here with our false judgements being the regarding of things that "seem to be true" vs. the true reality that we have in Christ.  My question though would be that suppose you are realizing that you are being manipulated by a stronger personality and you see it as unhealthy.  Should you not even consider in your mind that this is the case?  It seems we have to make judgements of some sort, living in this world, otherwise we could continue in situations and relationships that are not healthy.  What do you think?

Joyce

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wags
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"Very interesting...how many times I view others according to the flesh and not even realize that it is thus inevitable for me to view myself according to the flesh as well."

Oh man, me too, Dave.

 

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the shovel
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<<< My question though would be that suppose you are realizing that you are being manipulated by a stronger personality and you see it as unhealthy.  Should you not even consider in your mind that this is the case?  It seems we have to make judgements of some sort, living in this world, otherwise we could continue in situations and relationships that are not healthy.  What do you think? >>>

Hey Joyce,

The fact is that you have already considered it in your mind. It would be naive not to. Now, how are you going to judge it ... as well as the one who is doing this? The fleshly mind considers something as being unhealthy and reacts against it by strenghtening or establishing yet another fleshly means of dealing with it. We are constantly being pulled into this reasoning with all kinds of psychological reactions. How are you viewing yourself as you consider this person and the pressure he/she is putting on you? Maybe you need to get out of the relationship. I don't know. But I can tell you that either way standing firm in Christ is the only true option.

Jim


      

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luvin
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The unbelieving simply can't see it, for it is veiled. End discussion. This simple judgment if riddled all through his letter to the Corinthians. The one mind cannot understand the other. When we see things, including offenders against us, for what they are we also recognize the futility of trying to hold on to the old fleshly wisdom that would make us look better than they-Jim

Jim i can really relate to this and have always experieinced this but didnt know if others  truly in Christ did as well..

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luvin
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Joyce i actually agree along with you that we often do need to make basic "assesments" and or judgments in life.We shuold be very free to judge others and things  as much as we want...allow God to bring to light what is most profitiable and to see HE is light on things...trust Him to do this for you.... 
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Connie
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This part of the discussion makes me remember that scripture describing Christ during the crucifixion when it said He opened not His mouth, like a lamb to the slaughter.  There wasn't any other way for Him to go....He knew to defend Himself or answer accusations was worthless.

      

Connie
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evelina
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HMMM,,,not sure I get it. I'll have to read over again.
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evelina
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Connie,

Does that mean we never stand up for ourselves at all and get steamrollered?  

I like what you said luvin, I was starting  to feel sin-conscious that I was doing and thinking and acting in my whole situation wrongly, everything wrong.  Thanks for affirming the freedom we have and trust God to bring to light what is most profitable and to see He is light on things and to trust HIm to do this for us. THat is very freeing.

 

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Joyce
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Jim,

It sounds like you are saying that to "consider" a situation or person is different than "judging" them.  (?)  I guess I could "consider" this person as unhealthy in my life and act (break it off) on that consideration and then judge them according to the Spirit?   The thing is it is not clear whether or not this person is in Christ (probably not) yet at this point, which brings me back to the other question of how can we view others through Christ if they are yet in the flesh themselves, even though I know it says to judge NO man according to the flesh.  When I think of not judging according to the flesh I think in terms of seeing that person in Christ and that being that persons true identity, but for someone where that isn't the situation, I don't know how I can do that.

Joyce

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luvin
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Connie,

I think i see were you are getting that.In Christ we at many times will be faced with that sort of situation were unbelievers using there fleshly minds are wanting to pull you into there fleshly logic using fleshly tools and weapons.At some point i would think we all have had some level of experience with just silently suffering and commiting ourselves to God...Lord train us in riteousness!

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the shovel
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<<< The thing is it is not clear whether or not this person is in Christ (probably not) yet at this point, which brings me back to the other question of how can we view others through Christ if they are yet in the flesh themselves, even though I know it says to judge NO man according to the flesh. >>>

In reality, a person CANNOT be recognized/estimated/judged/viewed according to the flesh. To do so only creates illusions depending on who says what about who. There is only one certainty and that is found in Christ. We who have been made alive are of the new creation. Christ is our life, our definition, our meaning. Outside of him there is no true identity, no true meaning.

Jim


      

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Joyce
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Luvin,

Saw your other post after I posted mine.  Thanks. 

 

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luvin
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Edited by luvin on Dec-21-05 at 2:31pm


      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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luvin
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!

Edited by luvin on Dec-21-05 at 2:29pm


      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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Joyce
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Jim,

Sorry to be belaboring a point here, but are you saying that the UNbeliever's identity is also Christ?

Joyce

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mart2
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Joyce, i know this is probly the most important issue in how to start, foster and grow true relationships in Christ. As Jim wrote:
"In reality, a person CANNOT be recognized/estimated/judged/viewed according to the flesh."

Personally, i am very scared anymore to judge who is a believer and who is an unbeliever in God's eyes. People who thought that they had God's eyes have condemned me many times in the past.

Until Christ returns, i now think that i better never assume that all of my flesh is dead and gone and that i now understand all things.

Is that where faith, hope and trust begin?  Or where they end?
I walk the line.

mart

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graceman
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Joyce...I'm jumping in with my 'two-cents' worth even though your question was directed to Jim.

I think it is more beneficial to understanding others if we consider their identity on the basis of who Jesus Christ IS...i.e. Creator, Redeemer and truly the one who sustains ALL.  I take that to mean that He is sustaining those who are 'unbelievers'.  How did we become 'believers'?  Was it because we entered into the 'divine transaction' with God the Father through what His Son had done for us, in response to the 'Four Spiritual Laws'?  I used to think so...kind of like I cast my vote for Jesus, and now I will enjoy the benefit of 'my party' being in power.  This is what traditional, man-interested, man-centered teaching put across to us.  I can no longer see this as unconditional (love) or very graceful...not in a God-sized way. 

Men will enjoy the benefit of relating with God on the basis of WHO His Son is and WHAT He has accomplished.  He has created man to be His dwelling place and although we don't see this now in complete totality, I believe what God has purposed...He will achieve.  Irregardless of MAN'S WILL (I put MAN'S WILL in all caps to signify the deification that religion attaches to this aspect of man).

I can't and don't always see 'unbelievers' in Christ...does that mean that God doesn't?

"There is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Jesus Christ, who gave Himself as a ransom for ALL, TO BE TESTIFIED IN DUE TIME."  (1TIM2:5-6)

"As through the one man's (Adam's) disobedience the many were MADE sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many WILL BE made righteous." (ROM5:19)

"The grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to ALL men." (Titus 2:11)

God has much greater things in store for people than what the IC has clued them (or us) into.

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the shovel
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Joyce wrote:
Jim,

Sorry to be belaboring a point here, but are you saying that the UNbeliever's identity is also Christ?

Joyce



Apart from the life of God men have no identity. We also were once without identity.

Jim


      

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Connie
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evelina wrote:

Connie,

Does that mean we never stand up for ourselves at all and get steamrollered?  

I like what you said luvin, I was starting  to feel sin-conscious that I was doing and thinking and acting in my whole situation wrongly, everything wrong.  Thanks for affirming the freedom we have and trust God to bring to light what is most profitable and to see He is light on things and to trust HIm to do this for us. THat is very freeing.

 

Evelina, I can't say I was thinking that one can't answer any accusations.....I just know that Christ, in his example and the path He walked, ended up proving that His (and our) Identity and the place where a person will dwell in God, may cause that one to REMAIN there, at rest, without this overriding need to defend itself in a court of "Flesh".  I hope that makes sense.  However that plays out is an individual walking out, so to speak, of a Christ that lives in the individual. I just seemed to grasp how it may play out and how it may not look "good" on the outside, as it did for Jesus.  I mean, the crucifixion and the cross were shameful things, were they not, and yet look what they produced!

I really think you answered your query to me with your answer to luvin!



      

Connie
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Connie
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luvin wrote:

Connie,

I think i see were you are getting that.In Christ we at many times will be faced with that sort of situation were unbelievers using there fleshly minds are wanting to pull you into there fleshly logic using fleshly tools and weapons.At some point i would think we all have had some level of experience with just silently suffering and commiting ourselves to God...Lord train us in riteousness!

Exactly, Adam.  And think about how supernatural power has to play into this sort of scenario you described!  It has to be God in a person to do this!  



      

Connie
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II Cor.4:5-6

    
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Joyce
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Graceman,

Really neat to "talk"to someone I've actually met.  Yes, the 'four spiritual laws' booklet.  I bought a lot of them at one time and gave them out religiously.  (You know, time is short and people are perishing).  It did seem at the time that many were brought into the kingdom because of them, but now I don't know what to think. I think faith is the work of God and not a free will choice decision, but it seemed for many though from the testimonies that it did do that for people.  Hard to figure out on this side of that thinking.

 

Jim,

So I guess that if man has no identity apart from the Life of God, then you are saying that we can no longer view men according to the flesh because that is dead... crucified with Christ.  But those that have been made alive to God we can view them as their new identlty.... Christ in them. (?)   But those that are not alive in Him, we view just as dead.  (?)

Joyce

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BobB
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People tell me what and who they 'are' everyday.  They make their own judgements about themselves and it's generally not based in an understanding of being in Christ. I stay on the Shack because who you are has been made known, and you speak of it.

Discernment given by the Spirit regarding the people we meet is my guide, as to whether or not I have anything to do with someone, and then a judgement is made. We get better at it as we mature. The worlds judgement comes condemningly, the other judgement preserves the interests of Christ, and He lives in us.



      

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dave
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I really like this discussion.  some very good points!!!

If I were to live under others judgements of me...I think I might as well call it quits.  Although, we may think that we are justified at times in judging others we may just want to remember that we are no better even in our "best" times. 

So, are we to tolerate abuse because we do not judge according to the flesh??  Why?  To HATE abuse and manipulation and to be at enmity with the "flesh" that produces it is full of Life!  Are we not disgusted with what comes from our flesh??  Have we not had enough??  Can we expect anything "good" to come from another who operates according to the flesh??  And if the only good we know of comes from the fruit of Him within...then is there any room for judgement on the individual when we find ourselves simply rescued from this pit of sin and death?  There are times when I wish that I could separate myself from my flesh...cause I see things that come out that disgust me...and I yearn to be clothed with the incoruptible. 

So would I keep myself under manipulation, abuse, power mongling, etc.??  NO WAY!!  Do we not all HATE that works of the flesh??  Yet, can anyone be identified by their flesh??  Can we lay judgment upon another for the same works that our flesh produces as well??  Christ did not come to IMPROVE our flesh, He came to do away with it and bring LIFE.  Thus, to despise that which Christ Himself despised enough to crucify it...is really only natural.  But, to lay a person responsible for the works of the flesh...when we were let "off the hook" so to speak...sort of reminds me of a parable.  We were given mercy, yet in the so called righteous judgements of ours we retain the mercy that was so lavishly spread upon us.

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Rest and Trust
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dave wrote:

I really like this discussion.  some very good points!!!

Yeah, I agree, very rich.

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mary
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In reality, a person CANNOT be recognized/estimated/judged/viewed according to the flesh. To do so only creates illusions depending on who says what about who. There is only one certainty and that is found in Christ. We who have been made alive are of the new creation. Christ is our life, our definition, our meaning. Outside of him there is no true identity, no true meaning.

Jim
[/QUOTE]

        This is incredibly refreshing today, Jim.



      

Mary
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luvin
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the shovel wrote:
evelina wrote:

 How about judging righteously?  I can't say I understand all of this. 

We just went through an incident where we've been unfairly and falsely accused and having somewhat of a hard time getting past it.  How are we to look at these people?  We've been hurt and are still angry at them.

Evelina



"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."
(John 7:24 NASB)

To judge according to appearance is to judge according to the flesh. Such judgment thinks it can achieve a place of being called righteous by making sure it establishes itself as being in the right and another as the legitimate offender. Fleshly judgment establishes itself upon technicalities and will use those technicalities to prove its own rightness. This is why it is impossible to let these "righteous" fleshly judgments go. Instead, according to fleshly wisdom we learned that "time heals all wounds", not allowing ourselves to realize that older wounds get overshadowed and sometimes replaced by newer wounds making us suppose it just went away. We all know what it is to judge this way, it is all we knew before.

To judge according to Christ IS to judge righteously. It is the only possibility by which everything can be seen for what it is. Life is life, death is death. What else do we expect? What other rationale? Where else can we turn to see things as they are except in Christ. And in him we come to realize that all the technicalities in the world by which we might judge another do nothing more than to prove to us that there is no true right in any judgments we make according to appearance.

"Father, forgive them for they do not know what they do!" They THINK they know, we THOUGHT we knew ... and often even STILL THINK we know. But it is all a dead end street. In the end, according to righeous fleshly judgment, we would only find ourselves to be the same sinners we judge others to be.

Jim
Jim THANK YOU for being so bold here! Even in the midst of the probability you would be looked down upon or misunderstood by many.




      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

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