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The Stuff of Grace
 Shovel Shack : The Stuff of Grace
Subject Topic: The law and karma
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fofi
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Posted: Oct-18-11 at 7:30pm | IP Logged  

I find it ironic that some of my friends claim to be atheist but are always talking about karma. Isn't karma law? In a way they are under law whether they know it or not. If your not in Grace (Jesus) then your under law even if you don't believe. If you believe good things happen to you because you do good, that is law or karma. The same with bad things. Ok im just ranting here but I find it almost impossible to witness what I know to believers. When I first became enlightened I thought it would be easy to just tell people and show them ,but I found as you all probably know that good Church going people will explode when confronted with the truth. (For those who have eyes to see let them see). As a youth leader and Sunday school teacher this was disappointing, although the teens were easier to see some of what i was trying to say.That was 5 years ago or so, and since then i still witness to people whenever I can but it is only the unbeliever or the hungry that respond. I think it was C. S. Lewis who said you dont need a banquet for the hungry, just food will do.I havn't taught or tried to teach in a while, just living it and soaking it up day after day. I still have the desire to teach but what i have to say is so radical, maybe that is where i need to be just witnessing to a few here and there and thats ok. But sometimes I just want to explode and shout it from the mountain tops!!!!!!!!!!!!!! STOP CHILDREN WHATS THAT SOUND EVERYBODY LOOK WHATS GOING DOWN!!      Frustrated and satisfied lol


      

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the shovel
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Posted: Oct-19-11 at 2:31am | IP Logged  

Hello again, fofi. Thanks for posting!

This is so much the same as I have experienced. While people may want to feel as if they have discovered something other than what our Bible-based history has suggested, karma is just another expression of the natural mind in its recognition of living under the principle of law. And I think your assessment of good Church-going people is quite accurate. Religious people are some of the most difficult folks to speak to about truth and life in Christ because it just doesn't fit very well into the systematized versions of truth pumped out within their organizations. I used to think that if I could just get it all down right then people would want to hear it, but so few want anything to do with it. We might as well face it, we're the weird ones! As believers in Jesus Christ, I suppose we should have never expected to be accepted by those under the sway of conventional wisdom, eh?

Jim


      

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ShannonC
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Posted: Oct-21-11 at 1:09pm | IP Logged  

Thanks, Fofi, for sharing. I am Shannon, nice to meet you. I have been on The Shack for a few years, but in the last year or so, I have only popped in and out. So glad I popped in today. I KNOW exactly what you are talking about. I was 18 yo, church-going girl who was absolutely miserable and condemned to what felt like death under the law. God graciously revealed HIS LOVE and COMPLETE REDEMPTION to me and it SET ME FREE. I will be 40 yo in December and I must say that over the years, my mind, being soaked in the world, has easily been sucked into and deciebed that I am still under that condemnation that I know he set me from. I find myself, at times, feeling MORE condemned than I did before. Then I condemn myself for not "feeling" free enough. LOL! So, I think I am going through what you might call a "wilderness state" where I simply walk KNOWING but not FEELING. I hope one day to sense the sweetness of HIS love that I "felt" before. Shouldn't we? If HIS love doesn't make us feel better, we are screwed, right? I wait patiently for my Shepherd to speak again...

 

Anyway, as Sherri would say, I am off on a rabbit trail...

Love you guys!



      

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luvin
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Posted: Oct-21-11 at 4:59pm | IP Logged  

the shovel wrote:
Hello again, fofi. Thanks for
posting! This is so much the same as I have
experienced. While people may want to feel as if
they have discovered something other than what our
Bible-based history has suggested, karma is just
another expression of the natural mind in its
recognition of living under the principle of law.
And I think your assessment of good Church-going
people is quite accurate. Religious people are some
of the most difficult folks to speak to about truth
and life in Christ because it just doesn't fit very
well into the systematized versions of truth pumped
out within their organizations. I used to think that
if I could just get it all down right then people
would want to hear it, but so few want anything to
do with it. We might as well face it, we're the
weird ones! As believers in Jesus Christ, I suppose
we should have never expected to be accepted by
those under the sway of conventional wisdom, eh?
Jim


Excellent testimony here. This comes in many forms
doesn't it? I mean I mostly will have religious
minded folks simply nod their head and even verbally
agree with the grace of God and then just change the
subject! lol

Or else like today, I am speaking to someone and
they simply are reinterpreting what I am saying according to human effort/wisdom. How do I know? I
catch it in their circular responses. it is a God
thing that we see, when we see. THAT in itself is
good news.

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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luvin
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Posted: Oct-21-11 at 5:02pm | IP Logged  

Hi Shannon
                welcome FOFI!     

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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fofi
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Posted: Oct-21-11 at 7:05pm | IP Logged  

Hey shannonC and hey luvin. Its good so good for me to have a place to express myself, with such open minded spirits. ShanonC I can relate to your condemnation I walked in it for years, here are a few thoughts.I owe God nothing, nada, neel. I owe God nothing, If I owe God anything, and I mean anything then salvation was not a FREE GIFT because I am paying for it, thus buying even a small part of my salvation weakens the blood of Christ and says I had something to do with it. I don't want to startle people or offend anyone,( by the way I think Christians ought to be the hardest people to offend in the world) ,but thats another story.In Galatians Chapter 3(I think)  Paul talks about being under the Law and if you are under the Law you are cursed, so I deduced that we can place ourselves under the law by our thoughts and actions.Through much thought and internal struggling  I decided that asking God for forgiveness was placing me under the Law and crucifying him over and over on the cross.Once my mind started to clear from my Church brainwashing I could hear his voice more clearly.Now I'm not suggesting anyone do this, and don't get me wrong I'm NOT perfect,I mess up all the time, but by continually asking for forgivness I was placing myself under the Law , and doomed to repeat that behavior.So I started claiming my righteousness when I started to feel condemned.( Therfore there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus) Romans 8. In reality I was being a servant and not a son, you see sin gets its power from the Law, cant remember scripture for that off my head but am SURE it's in there.I could go on and on and on, but just remember this condemnation is the work of the devil after the cross, he is the accuser of the brethren and the opposite of love is not hate but fear, and thats what he uses. This may have been more than you wanted if so im sorry i dont mean to be preachy, just want to help the sunshine of our Lord shine on you.  fofi


      

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the shovel
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Posted: Oct-22-11 at 5:08am | IP Logged  

Thanks for your excellent post, my new friend!

fofi wrote:
by the way I think Christians ought to be the hardest people to offend in the world


I totally agree. And yet it does seem that Christians are often some of the quickest to offend, doesn't it?

fofi wrote:
I decided that asking God for forgiveness was placing me under the Law and crucifying him over and over on the cross.


Yes, and this is an illegitimate placement back under the Law since he has taken us out of that place. As Paul wrote, "but I could wish to be present with you now and to change my tone, for I am perplexed about you. Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law?"  Galatians 4:20-21 NASB And this follows his earlier question to them where he basically asked them, Are you insane?

fofi wrote:
... and don't get me wrong I'm NOT perfect,I mess up all the time, but by continually asking for forgivness I was placing myself under the Law , and doomed to repeat that behavior.So I started claiming my righteousness when I started to feel condemned.( Therfore there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus) Romans 8.


Fofi, why do you feel the need to add a disclaimer to the righteousness you have come to recognize and claim? Yeah, I think we've all learned how to appease the natural mind with the claim that we're not perfect ... but what are we actually saying by claiming this?

fofi wrote:
In reality I was being a servant and not a son, you see sin gets its power from the Law, cant remember scripture for that off my head but am SURE it's in there.


It sounds as if you may be referring to Paul's statement in 1 Corinthians: "The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;"  1 Corinthians 15:56 NASB. I love the conciseness of this statement. And it's not that this same truth isn't found all through the NT because it is ... such as the whole letter of Galatians or most of Romans up to chapter 7. 

fofi wrote:
I could go on and on and on, but just remember this condemnation is the work of the devil after the cross, he is the accuser of the brethren and the opposite of love is not hate but fear, and thats what he uses. This may have been more than you wanted if so im sorry i dont mean to be preachy, just want to help the sunshine of our Lord shine on you.  fofi


Please don't apologize for expressing freedom and real life. I am very encouraged by it, as I am sure others will be as well! 

Jim


      

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fofi
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Posted: Oct-22-11 at 7:23am | IP Logged  

Jim, thanks for your response. As for the disclaimer to my righteousness,I merely meant to say that this is the way I did it and it worked for me. Like so many other people that were under condemnation form the Church brainwashing i needed help undoing so much. When I would fall under condemnation I would quote scripture,sometimes in my quiet voice and sometimes to the top of my lungs,in my car! Yes we are the weirdos, ha ha. I'm sure many people spilled their  coffee in the am looking at the crazy person screaming,alone,before speaker phone,in the car next to them!! Any way [therefore there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus ]was one of my favorite scriptures to quote. I needed a lot to undo what had been done. It took wrote scripture quoting and memorization like a child again, i had to start all over. Do you play golf? I'm a recovering golfaholic, it's like trying to unlearn a bad golf swing after using it for 30 years, you need something powerful, may I suggest dynamite! Nothing else has worked on my golf swing har har.This may be the most crucial advice advice you have ever heard. Are you ready,here it comes, IF YOU DONT PLAY GOLF DONT START, ok write that in your Bible, maybe #11 or something.Here is something completely off the subject, like I really remember what I was talking about anyway,I can't decide if I like the sunrise, or the sunset better? Guess thats why we have both I don't have to choose !!! Ok back to the facts (good coffee can you tell).
    Yeah, I shouldn't apologize for freedom and real life, and I will not apologize for the life I have in Christ,which is the real freedom of life.Will I be a hieratic to the heretics? God keep me safe today, God watch over us and be with us, I can't  pray these prayers anymore,God is INSIDE OF ME, why would I use an outside line to an inside voice? Thats just where I am not suggesting anyone else should be there, just my personal sharing.I don't hang on anymore let go years ago Christ keeps me afloat ,internal life jacket. All for now


      

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the shovel
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Posted: Oct-22-11 at 9:10am | IP Logged  

Fofi,

By the disclaimer, I wasn't at all speaking about the Bible reference you made. No, no, not at all. That's a great verse. I'm talking about this statement:

"...and don't get me wrong I'm NOT perfect,I mess up all the time..."

I think it's the sin-conscious mind that makes us feel the need to relate to those who judge according to the flesh. Do you know what I mean?

Jim


      

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luvin
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Posted: Oct-22-11 at 9:41am | IP Logged  

the shovel wrote:
Fofi,By the disclaimer, I wasn't
at all speaking about the Bible reference you made.
No, no, not at all. That's a great verse. I'm
talking about this statement:"...and don't get me
wrong I'm NOT perfect,I mess up all the time..."I
think it's the sin-conscious mind that makes us feel
the need to relate to those who judge according to
the flesh. Do you know what I mean?Jim




I certainly do, my friend Jim. The world's pressure
shows itself in our words ALL the time. Thanks for
encouraging this freedom Jim.


AdamI

      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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fofi
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Posted: Oct-22-11 at 5:17pm | IP Logged  

Yes, i see what you mean. I  said I am not perfect only because i have heard of some people who believe they are? I think I,m 2 feet deep in 6 inches of water. Maybe I was trying to relate to those who judge according to the flesh, I don't know IM NOT PERFECT. Now that's funny! Made me belly laugh! Oh well ,i got a strange sense of humor.
   When you can't here the tone of my voice, you might get the impression i have become defensive. Let me assure thats not the case, i only say this because after reading my response i can see how some might  feel that way .

     I dearly love this interaction with such good people and i appreciate your responses. I may be becoming a shack junkie?
     ABOVE ALL THINGS GUARD YOUR PEACE


      

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the shovel
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Posted: Oct-22-11 at 6:05pm | IP Logged  

I'm not really sensing defensiveness in what you've written, just a desire to communicate. I love that!

Jim


      

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fofi
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Posted: Oct-23-11 at 5:43am | IP Logged  

    Yeah, communication and robbing banks is big fun.Almost make me wish I hadn't been saved! Especially this kind of open minded non judgmental rhetoric,I havn't been able to do this in a while.



      

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fofi
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Posted: Oct-23-11 at 8:46pm | IP Logged  

   Ok, I don't wish I hadn't been saved! It's a line from the movie, Oh Brother Where Art Thou. It's one of my favorite lines because it insinuates that you can't have fun after you get saved. Did you ever sit in the back of Church and whisper loudly (do not seek the treasure)?The treasure is there, the pearl of great price.Grace has a name and it is Jesus! Things that seem like basic addition and subtraction to me now were like 400 level physics to me 10 years ago. It shouldnt be that way should it?

    Do you have to come up under Law to experience Grace? I can see that at work thru history with the Law and Grace. I think we wouldn't understand Grace if there was not Law, just like we wouldn't understand day if there were no night. However I do not believe we must be under the Law to know Grace, because Jesus has come, but still It makes it so real to have gone thru that??


      

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the shovel
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Posted: Oct-24-11 at 12:56pm | IP Logged  

I remember that movie, although it just didn't mean as much to me as it did to the many people who raved about it to me. I dunno why ... it just didn't. Anyhow, I didn't recognize the line, but I knew you were just being funny ... and I'm okay with funny!

I agree with you that we don't have to be under the Law, at least not in the fashion of Israel being under the Law, in order to know grace. What I don't think most Christians realize, though, is that without having been under such a Law as spoken of in the Bible, we have been inundated with the basic premise of law from our youth up until now. Just consider the 90s TV series Seinfeld and it should convince you that the intricacy of the law principle twists every possible scenario in our society. I'd have to say that my own understanding of God's grace has been realized not only through my own excursions into the legal realm, but also through my observations of the legal bondages of those around me, of those I've dealt with. None of us have to go out of our way to experience law and its bondage. I realized early on that it was not required of me to discover how far down I could go in order to truly experience his grace, as I had already seen enough to know that there was no such thing as hitting the bottom.

Jim


      

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ShannonC
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Posted: Oct-24-11 at 1:17pm | IP Logged  

the shovel wrote:
I realized early on that it was not required of me to discover how far down I could go in order to truly experience his grace, as I had already seen enough to know that there was no such thing as hitting the bottom.

Jim

No such thing as hitting the bottom? I figured as much. Somehow I hope I have a bottom...my mind is FULL of the law.



      

ShannonC
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the shovel
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Posted: Oct-24-11 at 4:10pm | IP Logged  

ShannonC wrote:

the shovel wrote:
I realized early on that it was not required of me to discover how far down I could go in order to truly experience his grace, as I had already seen enough to know that there was no such thing as hitting the bottom.

Jim

No such thing as hitting the bottom? I figured as much. Somehow I hope I have a bottom...my mind is FULL of the law.



The whole concept of hitting the bottom is based upon perceptions that are built upon standards and laws. Having gone through a few drug-related programs with one of my kids, as well as support groups and much communication with those who have struggled for years with addiction, I have heard so many claims from people who claimed to have hit rock-bottom. What I began to realize is that somehow these same people kept finding a new level of rock-bottom that was far below the previous rock-bottom. Hmmmm ... sounds a little funky to me.

Shannon, let go of that false hope of finding your rock-bottom, for it has been done away in Christ. Which means that you're hoping for is pure illusion. What you have is so much better than that ... for there is only one true rock for us, and that is Christ. He seems to be illusion ... but he is anything but illusion. :) This is GOOD news, my dear sister.

Love, Jim


      

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Dave S
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Posted: Oct-24-11 at 8:45pm | IP Logged  

<my mind is FULL of the law.>

Yes Shannon, can relate entirely. Every single day !!

BUT, to see the law stripped of the power it has, to cause the misery, bondage and confusion it does, NOW, that would be an entirely different thing.

XXXXXXX

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Dignz
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Posted: Oct-25-11 at 11:58am | IP Logged  

"...my mind is FULL of the law."  <-shannon

i am sure it does not help to be in a 'law' office everyday!        

yeah ... the battle for our minds and hearts!  it sucks!  but the battle there has been won, for our hearts and minds are His.  He has given us NEW ones in the New Creation that we are in Him. 

being aware of the law of sin, giving strength to sin in every way possible with every thought of legal manipulation that we can muster, is a constant reminder to us of what we have been saved OUT of in the New Creation that He has made us.  it very much reminds us of the pain and hopelessness ... the very real depths of despair and anguish that were once ours when we were without Christ ... before the MIRACLE of NEW LIFE in CHRIST separated us OUT from it as our previous life and identity.   

other than a reminder, i do not know why we go back and forth in our hearts and minds to that which was once ours and defined our very being.  we go back to it as if is is still ours, thinking it has anything anymore to do with us.  yes indeed it once did.  no denying that.  what we can deny just as adamantly when we find it glaring in our face, daring and accusing us, is that we have to pay it any heed.  we can deny it has anything anymore to do with us, because it doesn't.  it is no longer ours and we are no longer its. 

if it isn't bad enough that we beat our own selves up with these things daily, we are inundated day in and day out by others who are more than happy to take up our slack in pointing out our imperfections and shortcomings.  why should we be so surprised.  who we are in reality is hidden from them for the most part.  (our life is hid with GOD in CHRIST JESUS) and when it isn't, it just makes them mad and hateful toward us even more!  all that is the world's is at enmity with God, and therefore with us.  we don't really need to help them out, but it sure seems easy enough, doesn't it? 

we recognize and can relate with all that was once true of us.  i think we often-times just get confused and misinterpret, misidentify and/or mislabel things we are seeing about ourselves and others. 

our hearts cry out with and for one another in that miraculous Life we share. 




      

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Dignz
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Posted: Oct-25-11 at 12:18pm | IP Logged  

'... an outside line to an inside voice ...'  fofi

good one! 

"I started claiming my righteousness when I started to feel condemned." <-fofi

as if we ever had any righteousness to begin with, right?    i think that is the delusion isn't it ... that we ever had any 'real' righteousness, for we know there is only ONE WHO IS RIGHTEOUS and HE gave us HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS.    therefore, i see what you mean by the feelings of condemnation stirring up any grasping for righteousness that we might think we have to claim to try to 'fix' those feelings.  ???  am i mis-reading you?

wait a minute ... i just re-read your post.  the righteousness you were claiming when you started feeling condemned again was the Righteousness you truly have in Him, right?  'cuz you quoted that wonderful part of Paul's letter about there being NO CONDEMNATION for those in Christ Jesus.    i LOVE that, too!    

there might not be any condemnation for us from GOD, but the world has PLENTY to spare for us, doesn't it?  this is what we should not be surprised about.  it sucks, but ... there it is.  sighhhhh ...  the world condemned Him and it condemns us the same.  fellowship of His sufferings.






      

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Dignz
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Posted: Oct-25-11 at 12:19pm | IP Logged  

to you men-folk ... you know who you are even tho' in Christ there is neither male nor female  ... thank you for all your encouragements and Life-support!  




      

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the shovel
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Posted: Oct-25-11 at 2:27pm | IP Logged  

Sherri, these are excellent replies! Thanks so much for taking the time to express this.

Jim


      

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ShannonC
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Posted: Oct-25-11 at 4:37pm | IP Logged  

Dignz wrote:
"...my mind is FULL of the law."  <-shannon

i am sure it does not help to be in a 'law' office everyday!        

LOL!! No, it doesn't help, truthfully.

who we are in reality is hidden from them for the most part.  (our life is hid with GOD in CHRIST JESUS) and when it isn't, it just makes them mad and hateful toward us even more!  all that is the world's is at enmity with God, and therefore with us.  we don't really need to help them out, but it sure seems easy enough, doesn't it? 

Really good stuff, there, Sherri...who we really are IS hidden and you are right because the WORLD is at enmity with God..and the mind of the Flesh is at enmity with God...OF course, there is conflict.






      

ShannonC
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fofi
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Posted: Oct-25-11 at 7:33pm | IP Logged  

Yes Dignz you got what I was sayin, so nice when the misunderstood are understood!! The righteousness I have in
Christ which was a FREE gift, can I say FREE again? Paul just has a different understanding, The Pauline Revelation if you will.I love it!
  Thanks for all the post,so much life, so good, so God!


      

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Dignz
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Posted: Oct-25-11 at 8:23pm | IP Logged  

thanx mr. shovel babe  :)

shannon, it is so good to see you again! 

i was wondering if perhaps some of the stuff you are accusing your mind of being full of law about could possibly be calling stuff for what it is?  you know, the recognizing of life and death, light and darkness, truth and deception - having had new eyes and a new 'sense' and new life while in the midst, if you know what i mean?  sometimes we can think that calling something for what it is might not be very 'christian' of us, if you know what i mean.  i know that especially in my 'christian' busy-ness days, i had a really hard time calling things for what they were.  i didn't trust that i could even know, much less did i ever imagine to have the freedom and confidence to even be able to do so.  there was much fear for me behind all that. however, ... that is my story/experience and i do not want to presume to impose it upon you as if it is yours, too.    honest.  i am just asking if perhaps some of that could be what you experience, too.

i am certainly not saying that i have reached some kind of place where i am no longer deceived and that i have all super power to stand up to things, people, circumstances and situations at all times.  not at all.   i really do relate with you about having the mind overwhelmed with so much law ... being beat down by it and even beating others down with it.  it all feeds a kind of vicious cycle.  i know all too well how it is NO FUN to be in that cycle.  and even daily being flung in and out of it like some kind of rubber band or yoyo.  a kind of mental and emotional bungee cording throughout the day!         

the reahhhhlly cool thing is that even while in the midst of the cycle, funk and poo doo, clarity comes along with a deep breath of fresh air and much relief and ... nothing else matters.  i know you have also testified of this yourself here on the shack.  i am just bringing it to mind.    

love you sis! 

fofi, it is wonderful to have you join us here at the shack and share what comes to heart and mind!  you are thought provoking, and your passion  can be quite contagious toward something called encouragement.      




Edited by Dignz on Oct-25-11 at 8:25pm


      

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fofi
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Posted: Oct-25-11 at 8:49pm | IP Logged  

        Talking and listening on the Shack is such an encouragement. I'm glad I learned of Grace and Law the way I did almost alone,there was one though that battled thru it with me, that said I'm delighted to have  this forum of expression and impression.I had so many adventures along the way. I used to just have one question for God, like tithing for instance, and I would pray and read and dig and scratch until i got an answer sometimes it would take days, weeks, or months. This went on for years and it was all leading to Grace vs law. Since I received  that enlightenment from God I havnt dug for much maybe that explains so much of the other questions. I guess the last thing i dug for was ,no sin, I remember like so many other issues, it seemed a sin to say it at the time.
 
    I can relate to the issues of Law and Grace for the battles goes on !

   Peace and Love and Grace to all

 


      

Farther on further in!
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the shovel
Shackmeister
Shackmeister


Joined: Oct-01-01
Location: United States
Posts: 4187
Posted: Oct-26-11 at 2:29am | IP Logged  

Thanks for these words that I read this morning. I will take them to work with me today! :)

Jim


      

DIGGIN'THE LIFE!
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Dignz
Shackaddict
Shackaddict


Joined: Jul-18-06
Location: United States
Posts: 1816
Posted: Oct-26-11 at 11:49am | IP Logged  

i dunno ... maybe it just seems like a 'cycle'.  maybe it is really just all the funk we are surrounded by day in and day out as well as the funk we find in our thoughts.  i just know that it can all make your head spin sometimes, can't it?    i think it is only the peace we have in christ alone that realizes the halting of 'the spin' even in the mist of the spin.       i know ... i make no sense, but ... i think i know what i mean.   




      

"afterall, he's not a tame lion"
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