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Biblical Interpretation
 Shovel Shack : Biblical Interpretation
Subject Topic: Assumptions reg whole world
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Debi
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Posted: Aug-06-10 at 4:29pm | IP Logged  

I was looking for this thread from a Q & A from the old site, under Universal Salvation-Assumptions reg the whole world.

Jim wrote:
 Q&A
SALVATION : Universal Salvation

(Topic Closed Topic Closed)
Assumptions regarding the WHOLE world?

Posted: Sep-13-03 << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>

Good questions about the whole world being redeemed. As a matter of fact I have been working on a subsection called "the whole world" for a while now. I've been working up to the subject for well over a year in my section called "The Argument", and I had planned on it way before I started hearing the Mike Williams views being presented so it really had nothing to do with universalism. Amazingly, as I hear and read bits and pieces of the viewpoint I am seeing MANY of the same rethinking of verses and concepts in what I have discovered. But I am seeing one fallacy in it that is the very same as found in the "Free Will" and "Calvinist" viewpoints ... and that is, upon what basis do we define "the world"?

This is what makes this whole thing so difficult! I used to think that there could be no common ground between those two opposing views, but there is. The fallacy is that both insist that "the world" can be defined by the people in it. The only difference between the two in that aspect is that one says that it is "everybody" while the other says that it is "a portion of everybody".

The simple reality of the world has become more incredibly obvious to me.

"For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved." (John 3:17).

The word "should" is conditioned upon something, but NOT upon a human factor. It was spoken in advance about what Jesus was about to do. In other words, the saving of "the world" is contingient upon the finished work of Jesus. It was his PURPOSE to save the world.

Now, the suggestion that "all in Adam" have gotten transferred into Christ and are therefore now spoken of as "all in Christ" is just not found in the Bible. And where do you find anything that comes even remotely close to the popular phrase, "saved, but just don't know it yet?"

Of course, we know that "Free Will" teachings say that Jesus did the work for all people and now it is left up to each to decide what they are going to do with it ... and the variations range from "good deeds" kind of works to the work of "faith". That whole teaching is flawed to the core. "Calvinist" teachings say that Jesus did the work for only a select portion of everybody, which means that "the world" is defined as "the world of the elect" (I heard a preacher actually work that one out). This concept of "the world" totally misses everything John had been leading up to from the beginning of his account.


I don't find it on the new site. I was wondering Jim, if you wrote any more on the "whole world" thingy somewhere?


      

Debi
"Truth is not the sum total of all true things, but is instead a person & His name is Jesus & He has become our LIFE."
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the shovel
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Posted: Aug-06-10 at 5:07pm | IP Logged  

I'm pretty sure I did write some more on it, but I'm not sure where I put it. However, I do have something more about the whole world at this link.

Jim


      

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Debi
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Posted: Aug-06-10 at 7:48pm | IP Logged  

Thanks Jim. That really clarified it and brings our focus onto Christ and not an argument or position!

These paragraphs really helped.

Jim wrote:
Though most of the world had been destroyed, the creation made in Godís image (though in darkness) had been spared. 

The quantity of individuals (or lack thereof) does not change the saving of the world.  His image in this world is delivered through the man, Jesus, who "is the image of the invisible God (Col. 1:15)"!  The world, through the flood, was saved in one man, and that was Noah; for "the world at that time was destroyed (2 Pet. 3:6)", and the present world survived through his seed.  The world, through the cross, was saved in one man, and that is the Lord Jesus Christ, for He is the first-born of all creation.  And this is the new creation, which is the only thing that God regards (2 Cor. 5:14-17).

For God loved the lost image of Himself in creation so much that He sent His only Son to rescue it from being lost forever!  God did not remain outside of the creation, but subjected Himself to become part of it.  And in doing so God did not just rescue the image, but He became the image in the person of Jesus, who is all God and all man!  And in Him, the world has been saved forever, for He is the satisfaction not only for the men he chose as His apostles, but for all those who believe in Him through their word.  This is not a negation of the sufficiency of the payment, but is the declaration that God is satisfied toward us who believe!  Will I remember this when religion condemns me?
 



Jim wrote:
"For God so loved the world..."  Is this really telling us that He loves everybody, orr do we totally ignore the numerous verses that declare that God hates the evildoers?  Remember, the true God has no problem with any of this; we are the ones who donít get it. It's me who thinks that God was made after my image.  I am the one who comes up with these crazy ideas that "I love everybody",  and "All I want is world peace".  Yeah, sure.  And then all it takes is one bad day and then as far as Iím concerned the world can go to hell!  You know what I mean, unless, of course, you're "too spiritual" to understand. 




      

Debi
"Truth is not the sum total of all true things, but is instead a person & His name is Jesus & He has become our LIFE."
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Dignz
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Posted: Aug-07-10 at 8:01am | IP Logged  

good morning, deb ~    ( and everyone else )

thank you, deb so much for posting this!  you are a good searcher! 

i am really enjoying this.  much to ponder, as usual. 

i was thinking again how much the authors and the readers in their time understood what they were saying, writing and discussing together a LOT better than all the centuries of generations AFTER them who have read their letters.  so much has been perverted and twisted and seemingly lost until it is no longer recognizable or understood from its origins.     

as the apostle paul would say ~ '... but god ... ' 

god has given us his spirit and not left us alone in the old creation of darkness.  that darkness we once knew ever so well is swallowed up in his light.  he has given his light to us and made us light as well ... in the midst of the darkness of the world.  doesn't always appear so, or feel so, or seem so, but ... it is the reality of god in us nevertheless.  the very idea is complete anathema to the world's view toward us.  they complain that it is arrogance to think that man can actually be united with god as one ...  god and man together as one ... one body, one soul, one spirit, one life ... united as one together.  utter absurdity.  impossible to grasp, allow and/or wrap the head around.  it is indeed 'foreign' to this world ... other worldly so to speak.  downright IMPOSSIBLE.  yet again as the apostle paul would say ~    '... but god ...' 

kind of gives ya the shivers sometimes. 



p.s.  what does 'topic closed' mean? 


Edited by Dignz on Aug-07-10 at 8:02am


      

"afterall, he's not a tame lion"
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the shovel
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Posted: Aug-07-10 at 8:34am | IP Logged  

Sherri wrote:
p.s.  what does 'topic closed' mean?


That means that you can't add anything to it. As I would get hit by spammers on certain articles on the old site, I simply closed them.

Jim :)


      

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luvin
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Posted: Aug-07-10 at 8:39am | IP Logged  


The quantity of individuals (or lack thereof) does not change the saving of the world.  His image in this world is delivered through the man, Jesus, who "is the image of the invisible God (Col. 1:15)"!  The world, through the flood, was saved in one man, and that was Noah; for "the world at that time was destroyed (2 Pet. 3:6)", and the present world survived through his seed.  The world, through the cross, was saved in one man, and that is the Lord Jesus Christ, for He is the first-born of all creation.  And this is the new creation, which is the only thing that God regards (2 Cor. 5:14-17).-Jim


Yes this is excellent Jim.


      

It is peace[the kind we long for] to know that my life patterns do not distract or derail the Living God"-Adam

http:newthatsliving.blogspot.com
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mary
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Posted: Aug-07-10 at 11:10am | IP Logged  

Dignz wrote:
  they complain that it is arrogance to think that man can actually be united with god as one ...  god and man together as one ... one body, one soul, one spirit, one life ... united as one together.  utter absurdity.  impossible to grasp, allow and/or wrap the head around.  it is indeed 'foreign' to this world ... other worldly so to speak.  downright IMPOSSIBLE.  yet again as the apostle paul would say ~    '... but god ...' 

 
    Love this.


Edited by mary on Aug-07-10 at 11:28am


      

Mary
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